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Thread: Steelers 2017 - 10,000 Foot View

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Steelers 2017 - 10,00 Foot View

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Obviously, having a franchise QB is the easiest route.

    But, I also don't think we are "doomed" once BB retires.

    That said, I agree that everything has to line up perfectly... Let's assume that the defense is lights out. On the offensive side, with AB, Bell, and the best O-line in the league, a decent QB should be able to put up "good enough" numbers to make a championship run.
    So unless we want to downgrade Eli Manning to "decent" QB (which I totally support) then what decent QB's are we talking about?

    Flacco? Like I said, he went on a record setting run to win his lone SB and has looked team hurtingly not good since then. Kaep? His two playoff runs were more than average and involved him making numerous game altering plays.

    Alex Smith or a player like him is who I feel everyone has in their heads when they say "decent" or "average" QB. But look at KC recently. Take the playoff game against the Steelers last season. If Smith could've completed a TD pass to a WR since sometime other than his second year in college, the Chiefs might have beaten the Steelers.

    Look at the past 3-5 Bengals rosters. What has their weak link been? Before this season (since they decided that o line was not important), CB and QB. On an offense featuring a top 5 WR, a top 5 TE, a above average RB, and prior to this year good to pretty darn good o lines. Those teams scared no one come playoff time because Dalton can't beat you enough times to matter.

    Look at the last several Texans squads. Great WR. Good TEs. Decent RBs. Lights out defense. I mean they took the Pats to the wall. Except their QB play wasn't good enough. How much better than Osweiler would it have had to been? I don't know but that team might've been a SB champion except for poor QB play. Same with Denver. If Seiman coul've been an actual playmaker, then that team might've won another championship.

    I can see the attraction of your point, but I just do not see recent real-world examples of this "everything but the QB is above average" winning formula. I do see it working if you want to be basically one and done every season with maybe a "lucky" deep playoff run every third year or so. And that is best case. Worst case is you pick about 15th every damn year in the draft and tread water year in and year out. Kinda the Jeff Fisher level.

    That's not for me. It all starts and ends with the QB. If you don't have one, I really don't care what else you got on your roster, overwhelming probability is that you are not winning a championship.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute"> Born2Steel's Avatar

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    Re: Steelers 2017 - 10,000 Foot View

    You're not wrong.

  3. #33
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    Re: Steelers 2017 - 10,00 Foot View

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    So unless we want to downgrade Eli Manning to "decent" QB (which I totally support) then what decent QB's are we talking about?

    Flacco? Like I said, he went on a record setting run to win his lone SB and has looked team hurtingly not good since then. Kaep? His two playoff runs were more than average and involved him making numerous game altering plays.

    Alex Smith or a player like him is who I feel everyone has in their heads when they say "decent" or "average" QB. But look at KC recently. Take the playoff game against the Steelers last season. If Smith could've completed a TD pass to a WR since sometime other than his second year in college, the Chiefs might have beaten the Steelers.

    Look at the past 3-5 Bengals rosters. What has their weak link been? Before this season (since they decided that o line was not important), CB and QB. On an offense featuring a top 5 WR, a top 5 TE, a above average RB, and prior to this year good to pretty darn good o lines. Those teams scared no one come playoff time because Dalton can't beat you enough times to matter.

    Look at the last several Texans squads. Great WR. Good TEs. Decent RBs. Lights out defense. I mean they took the Pats to the wall. Except their QB play wasn't good enough. How much better than Osweiler would it have had to been? I don't know but that team might've been a SB champion except for poor QB play. Same with Denver. If Seiman coul've been an actual playmaker, then that team might've won another championship.

    I can see the attraction of your point, but I just do not see recent real-world examples of this "everything but the QB is above average" winning formula. I do see it working if you want to be basically one and done every season with maybe a "lucky" deep playoff run every third year or so. And that is best case. Worst case is you pick about 15th every damn year in the draft and tread water year in and year out. Kinda the Jeff Fisher level.

    That's not for me. It all starts and ends with the QB. If you don't have one, I really don't care what else you got on your roster, overwhelming probability is that you are not winning a championship.
    The Ravens were a super bowl contender from 2008 to 2012 with 3 afc title game and a win in the super bowl.

    The Bengals have several problems.....Marvin Lewis is not a good HC,Dalton has often choked in big games and the bengals have no good leader in their locker room.

    Of course, you have almost no chance of winning if your QB is bad as in the few last years with the Texans.It could change this year if Watson is the real deal.

  4. #34
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    Re: Steelers 2017 - 10,00 Foot View

    Quote Originally Posted by polamalubeast View Post
    The Ravens were a super bowl contender from 2008 to 2012 with 3 afc title game and a win in the super bowl.

    The Bengals have several problems.....Marvin Lewis is not a good HC,Dalton has often choked in big games and the bengals have no good leader in their locker room.

    Of course, you have almost no chance of winning if your QB is bad as in the few last years with the Texans.It could change this year if Watson is the real deal.
    Fair enough. But how many of those AFC championship games were won or lost by the QB making a play or not making a play? Almost every single one had that as a significant story line. What about Ravens playoff losses to Steelers in other rounds where Ben made a play and Flacco didn't?

    This board is always talking about how the only successful season is a SB season. If that is to remain the standard, then having a "franchise" QB is the only consistently proven path to that goal.

    Anything else is pie in the sky thinking. Now, I am not saying that you pack up your tents and just quit when you don't have one, but filling that roster gap has to be priority #1 until you get one.

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    Senior Member Array title="teegre has a reputation beyond repute"> teegre's Avatar

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    Re: Steelers 2017 - 10,00 Foot View

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    So unless we want to downgrade Eli Manning to "decent" QB (which I totally support) then what decent QB's are we talking about?

    Flacco? Like I said, he went on a record setting run to win his lone SB and has looked team hurtingly not good since then. Kaep? His two playoff runs were more than average and involved him making numerous game altering plays.

    Alex Smith or a player like him is who I feel everyone has in their heads when they say "decent" or "average" QB. But look at KC recently. Take the playoff game against the Steelers last season. If Smith could've completed a TD pass to a WR since sometime other than his second year in college, the Chiefs might have beaten the Steelers.

    Look at the past 3-5 Bengals rosters. What has their weak link been? Before this season (since they decided that o line was not important), CB and QB. On an offense featuring a top 5 WR, a top 5 TE, a above average RB, and prior to this year good to pretty darn good o lines. Those teams scared no one come playoff time because Dalton can't beat you enough times to matter.

    Look at the last several Texans squads. Great WR. Good TEs. Decent RBs. Lights out defense. I mean they took the Pats to the wall. Except their QB play wasn't good enough. How much better than Osweiler would it have had to been? I don't know but that team might've been a SB champion except for poor QB play. Same with Denver. If Seiman coul've been an actual playmaker, then that team might've won another championship.

    I can see the attraction of your point, but I just do not see recent real-world examples of this "everything but the QB is above average" winning formula. I do see it working if you want to be basically one and done every season with maybe a "lucky" deep playoff run every third year or so. And that is best case. Worst case is you pick about 15th every damn year in the draft and tread water year in and year out. Kinda the Jeff Fisher level.

    That's not for me. It all starts and ends with the QB. If you don't have one, I really don't care what else you got on your roster, overwhelming probability is that you are not winning a championship.
    You're not wrong.

    Looking at the the past few SuperBowl QBs:

    2016: Brady vs Marty Ice (HOF, MVP)
    2015: Old Peyton vs. Cam (the anomaly, MVP)
    2014: Brady vs Wilson (HOF, franchise QB)
    2013: Peyton vs. Wilson (HOF, franchise QB)
    2012: Flacco vs. Kaepernick (best post season ever, great year)
    2011: Brady vs. Eli (HOF, franchise QB)
    2010: BB vs. Rodgers (HOF, HOF)
    2009: Peyton vs. Brees (HOF, HOF)
    2008: BB vs. Warner (HOF, HOF)

    Before the Broncos in 2015, the last time that a team truly won without a franchise QB was the 2003 Buccaneers. So, your point is backed up by facts and history.

    That said, if you gave me an insane defense and AB, Bell, & our O-line... I think I’d be able to make a solid run at the championship. Alas, Cowher thought this way, as well... only to have his QB lose the game for him in 1994, 1995, 1997, & 2001.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Steelers 2017 - 10,00 Foot View

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    You're not wrong.

    Looking at the the past few SuperBowl QBs:

    2016: Brady vs Marty Ice (HOF, MVP)
    2015: Old Peyton vs. Cam (the anomaly, MVP)
    2014: Brady vs Wilson (HOF, franchise QB)
    2013: Peyton vs. Wilson (HOF, franchise QB)
    2012: Flacco vs. Kaepernick (best post season ever, great year)
    2011: Brady vs. Eli (HOF, franchise QB)
    2010: BB vs. Rodgers (HOF, HOF)
    2009: Peyton vs. Brees (HOF, HOF)
    2008: BB vs. Warner (HOF, HOF)

    Before the Broncos in 2015, the last time that a team truly won without a franchise QB was the 2003 Buccaneers. So, your point is backed up by facts and history.

    That said, if you gave me an insane defense and AB, Bell, & our O-line... I think I’d be able to make a solid run at the championship. Alas, Cowher thought this way, as well... only to have his QB lose the game for him in 1994, 1995, 1997, & 2001.
    That is my fear and point - I think. You all that are arguing for a great overall roster and an average-ish QB making a run are also right. But I've seen that movie before and it is pretty frustrating.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute"> DesertSteel's Avatar

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    Re: Steelers 2017 - 10,00 Foot View

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    You're not wrong.

    Looking at the the past few SuperBowl QBs:

    2016: Brady vs Marty Ice (HOF, MVP)
    2015: Old Peyton vs. Cam (the anomaly, MVP)
    2014: Brady vs Wilson (HOF, franchise QB)
    2013: Peyton vs. Wilson (HOF, franchise QB)
    2012: Flacco vs. Kaepernick (best post season ever, great year)
    2011: Brady vs. Eli (HOF, franchise QB)
    2010: BB vs. Rodgers (HOF, HOF)
    2009: Peyton vs. Brees (HOF, HOF)
    2008: BB vs. Warner (HOF, HOF)

    Before the Broncos in 2015, the last time that a team truly won without a franchise QB was the 2003 Buccaneers. So, your point is backed up by facts and history.

    That said, if you gave me an insane defense and AB, Bell, & our O-line... I think I’d be able to make a solid run at the championship. Alas, Cowher thought this way, as well... only to have his QB lose the game for him in 1994, 1995, 1997, & 2001.
    Even though you are giving them kudos for their postseason, both QBs in 2012 were anomolies to the great QB formula.

  8. #38
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    Re: Steelers 2017 - 10,000 Foot View

    Joe Flacco's postseason that year was better than anyone not named "Montana". That's ever. Like of all time.

    https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/2/...vii-joe-flacco

    Flacco stunk before and he stinks again now. But for one jaw-dropping post-season he had 4 of the greatest play-off games anyone ever played (statistically at least).

  9. #39
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    Re: Steelers 2017 - 10,000 Foot View

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    Joe Flacco's postseason that year was better than anyone not named "Montana". That's ever. Like of all time.

    https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/2/...vii-joe-flacco

    Flacco stunk before and he stinks again now. But for one jaw-dropping post-season he had 4 of the greatest play-off games anyone ever played (statistically at least).
    He was on fire. But overall he's still average to below average (and rich).

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array title="teegre has a reputation beyond repute"> teegre's Avatar

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    Re: Steelers 2017 - 10,00 Foot View

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    Even though you are giving them kudos for their postseason, both QBs in 2012 were anomolies to the great QB formula.
    True.

    Flacco required a record-breaking postseason to win a championship... which kind of validates Mojouw’s point: you might get championship-level play out of an average QB, but it HAS to be a championship level in order to win a championship. And, more importantly, it doesn’t last.

    Kaepernick’s run was before teams figured out how to stop him: play 8 in the box to stop the run and force him to pass. But, again, it required a great postseason from him (and then... he reverted back to being awful).


    In a way, both you & Mojouw are correct:

    Long-term (Mojouw): you need a franchise QB

    Short-term (you): it is possible to win a championship w/ Alex Smith... but... it would require championship-level play from him.

  11. #41
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    Re: Steelers 2017 - 10,000 Foot View

    We were very close to seeing a Super Bowl between Alex Smith and Joe Flacco in 2011 too, but this is true that it is very rare!

    Even between 1992 to 1999, every super bowl winning QB are in the HOF.

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