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Thread: Something to Think About

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Something to Think About

    Team did not routinely stand for the anthem prior to 2009.

    http://dailysnark.com/nfl-teams-didn...l-anthem-2009/

    After 2009, the practice became "standard" because the league was getting paid for it. So this totally non-political symbol (the flag) and song (the anthem) that everyone says should be kept out of politics, was inserted into politics using tax-payer money by the Pentagon and the National Guard.

    http://www.csnne.com/new-england-pat...y-new-practice

    Prior to these "paid patriotism" displays, teams were only on the field for the anthem during select games and occasions, which is why we all remember the anthem being periodically televised, but not every time in years past. Because mostly, the anthem was conducted to empty sidelines as the teams were in the locker room. Saying nothing of the fans in the beer lines and bathrooms.

    Again, I want to stress that while I am certain my opinion on all this is no mystery - I am not trying to tell anyone how to feel or react. What I am trying to do is provide facts and context for the discussion. Frankly I am more angry over both sides (this is meant to be in regards to the world at large, not this forum - things have been pretty good here!) constant inability to acknowledge facts and basic principles. Instead, the narrative is warped and twisted to fit the needs of the situation at hand.

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    Senior Member Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute"> Born2Steel's Avatar

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    Re: Something to Think About

    The anger directed at kneeling/sitting during the anthem is not because of history. It's a participation, love it or leave it, core belief in patriotism. However, this is not even the issue behind players kneeling/sitting. They are protesting the violation of basic human rights. Something every American should be against as Americans. What totally baffles me is how so much emphasis is being put on what the protesters are doing instead of why they're doing it. No wonder we such a problem putting things into context.

    I can't even begin to tell how many times I have stood for the anthem at a stadium before a game. Most times, bordering on almost always, there is a group of folks chatting away during the entire thing. There are always players doing other things during the anthem, usually getting game ready. Never has anyone said those players should be fired before now. Never has anyone told those groups to shut up and respect the flag during the anthem. This argument is very hypocritical at best.

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    Re: Something to Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    The anger directed at kneeling/sitting during the anthem is not because of history. It's a participation, love it or leave it, core belief in patriotism. However, this is not even the issue behind players kneeling/sitting. They are protesting the violation of basic human rights. Something every American should be against as Americans. What totally baffles me is how so much emphasis is being put on what the protesters are doing instead of why they're doing it. No wonder we such a problem putting things into context.

    I can't even begin to tell how many times I have stood for the anthem at a stadium before a game. Most times, bordering on almost always, there is a group of folks chatting away during the entire thing. There are always players doing other things during the anthem, usually getting game ready. Never has anyone said those players should be fired before now. Never has anyone told those groups to shut up and respect the flag during the anthem. This argument is very hypocritical at best.
    And there is my biggest problem right there. Who it's coming from. The biggest hypocrite yelling "RESPECT" is the most disrespectful of everyone. His vile, crude disrespect for women in particular takes it to a whole other level for me personally, but he dodges the draft, he calls people names and he's putting political BS into an entertainment pass time. Run the country, do your job, worry about the recent hurricane victims left with nothing and NK with their nukes. Perhaps all those Steelers "fans" should be donating their clothing to those people who lost everything instead of trying to get their 15 minutes of tough guy by burning them. I will always stand for the anthem/country, but will never stand for him. My vent, my views, my rights (so far).

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    Inconsiderate S.O.B. Array title="steelreserve has a reputation beyond repute"> steelreserve's Avatar

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    Re: Something to Think About

    First of all, I call BS on the 2009 argument. Maybe it wasn't "expected" or enforced by rule, but it's always been pretty much just what people do. At least since the early '80s, which is what I can attest to personally, and probably much longer. I mean, there were Marines with flags and everything, sometimes a fighter jet or two flying over, you name it, and all well before some advertising deal in 2009.

    In general, it was understood among everyone - including the players - that the decent thing to do is just take a minute to reflect on the positive things that contributed to you being here and participating in this sporting event, whether as a player or a spectator. And unless you really have something more important to do, not doing it makes you a dick. The teams did it too in pretty much every sporting event I can remember - baseball, football, basketball, hockey ... football may have been the only one where they didn't make a point of doing it in an organized fashion, but in general I remember them doing it.

    It's not like nobody participated in it before, and then in 2009 the NFL signed an advertising deal and everyone said "holy shit, now that THAT happened, the national anthem is way more important, let's get really into it, and fuck anyone who doesn't go along!" Total bullshit cherry-picked argument with the intention (as usual with the left) of making those who disagree seem ignorant and gullible. But - nope, that's not what actually, you know ... happened.


    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    The anger directed at kneeling/sitting during the anthem is not because of history. It's a participation, love it or leave it, core belief in patriotism. However, this is not even the issue behind players kneeling/sitting. They are protesting the violation of basic human rights. Something every American should be against as Americans. What totally baffles me is how so much emphasis is being put on what the protesters are doing instead of why they're doing it. No wonder we such a problem putting things into context.
    It's that way because they are protesting by being rude to another group of people who have nothing to do with what is being protested.

    As I said in the other thread, what if I tried to make my point about some unrelated subject by protesting Martin Luther King Day? Even if my cause has nothing to do putting down Martin Luther King Jr., I just pissed everyone off by being rude about an event that holds an important meaning. "But Martin Luther King fought and even died for human rights and our right to protest peacefully." Same argument, right? Whoops, guess it doesn't look so good anymore.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Senior Member Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute"> Born2Steel's Avatar

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    Re: Something to Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    First of all, I call BS on the 2009 argument. Maybe it wasn't "expected" or enforced by rule, but it's always been pretty much just what people do. At least since the early '80s, which is what I can attest to personally, and probably much longer. I mean, there were Marines with flags and everything, sometimes a fighter jet or two flying over, you name it, and all well before some advertising deal in 2009.

    In general, it was understood among everyone - including the players - that the decent thing to do is just take a minute to reflect on the positive things that contributed to you being here and participating in this sporting event, whether as a player or a spectator. And unless you really have something more important to do, not doing it makes you a dick. The teams did it too in pretty much every sporting event I can remember - baseball, football, basketball, hockey ... football may have been the only one where they didn't make a point of doing it in an organized fashion, but in general I remember them doing it.

    It's not like nobody participated in it before, and then in 2009 the NFL signed an advertising deal and everyone said "holy shit, now that THAT happened, the national anthem is way more important, let's get really into it, and fuck anyone who doesn't go along!" Total bullshit cherry-picked argument with the intention (as usual with the left) of making those who disagree seem ignorant and gullible. But - nope, that's not what actually, you know ... happened.




    It's that way because they are protesting by being rude to another group of people who have nothing to do with what is being protested.

    As I said in the other thread, what if I tried to make my point about some unrelated subject by protesting Martin Luther King Day? Even if my cause has nothing to do putting down Martin Luther King Jr., I just pissed everyone off by being rude about an event that holds an important meaning. "But Martin Luther King fought and even died for human rights and our right to protest peacefully." Same argument, right? Whoops, guess it doesn't look so good anymore.
    Guess I missed the point of this then. This makes zero sense to me. What if I hypothetically made up a different hypothetical analogy?

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    Inconsiderate S.O.B. Array title="steelreserve has a reputation beyond repute"> steelreserve's Avatar

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    Re: Something to Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    Guess I missed the point of this then. This makes zero sense to me. What if I hypothetically made up a different hypothetical analogy?
    It's OK, given your original point of view, I wouldn't expect that to make sense to you. That's what happens when you contradict a liberal point of view - Fa-WHOOSH!
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Senior Member Array title="Mojouw has a reputation beyond repute"> Mojouw's Avatar

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    Re: Something to Think About

    The point of the 2009 date is not that anthems and ceremonies were not happening prior to games. They happened prior to the start of almost all sporting events. I don't think that was ever up for debate. Sometimes those would involve honor guards from the military, police, and/or local fire departments. Sometimes it would be another civic organization. Maybe a few jets from a local NG unit are involved. What have you.

    These were not unified, official league policy AND foregrounded on live HD television broadcasts until the NFL was paid for it. Then we all saw it at the top of every national broadcast. I've watched almost every single Steelers television broadcast since roughly the Bubby Brister era and sometimes I've seen an anthem and sometimes I've have not.

    I mean this is a fact. It really can not be debated. The NFL acknowledges it. The Pentagon acknowledges it. I don't see how this is liberal "spin"? I don't see it as an attempt to make anyone feel dumb or wrong. Just to point out that everything is politics. Nothing done in the public eye is apolitical. Those SOBs have their fingers in everything!

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    Re: Something to Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    It's OK, given your original point of view, I wouldn't expect that to make sense to you. That's what happens when you contradict a liberal point of view - Fa-WHOOSH!
    I am definitely not a liberal. But I do appreciate the label since I didn't have one before.

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    Re: Something to Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    The point of the 2009 date is not that anthems and ceremonies were not happening prior to games. They happened prior to the start of almost all sporting events. I don't think that was ever up for debate. Sometimes those would involve honor guards from the military, police, and/or local fire departments. Sometimes it would be another civic organization. Maybe a few jets from a local NG unit are involved. What have you.

    These were not unified, official league policy AND foregrounded on live HD television broadcasts until the NFL was paid for it. Then we all saw it at the top of every national broadcast. I've watched almost every single Steelers television broadcast since roughly the Bubby Brister era and sometimes I've seen an anthem and sometimes I've have not.

    I mean this is a fact. It really can not be debated. The NFL acknowledges it. The Pentagon acknowledges it. I don't see how this is liberal "spin"? I don't see it as an attempt to make anyone feel dumb or wrong. Just to point out that everything is politics. Nothing done in the public eye is apolitical. Those SOBs have their fingers in everything!
    I mean, I just don't get the point of the 2009 argument in the first place. So it wasn't "official" before. Fine, but that doesn't really make much difference.

    Maybe participating in the anthem was voluntary before, maybe you used to have some guys warming up for the game or whatever ... but what we never had were people making a show of deliberately refusing to participate, which is a different thing entirely. One is just "ok, I'm getting ready for the game, no big deal," the other is "Hey, look over here! Fuck you!"

    I really don't see where anyone is going with that argument. Or why the "paid advertisement" thing is a big deal to anyone. The military advertises and puts on shows and events all the time. So they did that for something that was already happening before a football game anyway. The fact that people didn't even notice any difference until someone pointed it out ought to say something about how important that really is.




    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    I am definitely not a liberal. But I do appreciate the label since I didn't have one before.
    I have no idea what your political leanings are, but it's definitely a liberal point of view, and dismissing something that contradicts it is definitely a liberal type of reaction.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Re: Something to Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by steelreserve View Post
    I mean, I just don't get the point of the 2009 argument in the first place. So it wasn't "official" before. Fine, but that doesn't really make much difference.

    Maybe participating in the anthem was voluntary before, maybe you used to have some guys warming up for the game or whatever ... but what we never had were people making a show of deliberately refusing to participate, which is a different thing entirely. One is just "ok, I'm getting ready for the game, no big deal," the other is "Hey, look over here! Fuck you!"

    I really don't see where anyone is going with that argument. Or why the "paid advertisement" thing is a big deal to anyone. The military advertises and puts on shows and events all the time. So they did that for something that was already happening before a football game anyway. The fact that people didn't even notice any difference until someone pointed it out ought to say something about how important that really is.






    I have no idea what your political leanings are, but it's definitely a liberal point of view, and dismissing something that contradicts it is definitely a liberal type of reaction.
    So when you dismiss the "2009 argument because you 'don't get it' ", is that a liberal viewpoint?

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    Inconsiderate S.O.B. Array title="steelreserve has a reputation beyond repute"> steelreserve's Avatar

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    Re: Something to Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    So when you dismiss the "2009 argument because you 'don't get it' ", is that a liberal viewpoint?
    No, because rather than "not getting the point," I dismissed the argument because even if its point is true, it makes no difference. It's just another way to distract people from the main topic of debate by calling them hypocrites. That's not limited to liberals, by the way, but it isn't helping anything.

    To me it's a pretty simple calculus:

    1. Is the way that they're protesting constructive? No.

    2. Could they have picked a different way to make their point and still been just as effective? Yes.

    3. Are they being unnecessarily rude to a group of people that have nothing to do with the issue at hand? Yes.

    4. Was that a poor choice that undermined/distracted from the point they were trying to make? Yes.

    5. Is anyone better off because of their actions, or is everyone just angry? Angry.

    So what we have is a poorly thought-out protest, poorly executed, to no one's benefit. Even if you have the right to do it, I'm not going to get behind that.
    An empty victory is a victory nonetheless.

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    Senior Member Array title="teegre has a reputation beyond repute"> teegre's Avatar

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    Re: Something to Think About

    Let me get this straight...

    Teams being on the field for the Anthem started in 2009.

    Pffft... thanks, Obama!!!

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    Re: Something to Think About

    Again, it’s pointless to be playing the anthem before sporting events to start with.


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    Re: Something to Think About

    is it Hockey season yet ?

    doubt we have these issues then
    Follow me on Twitter @Dwinsgames

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    Quest For Seven Array title="Mach1 has a reputation beyond repute"> Mach1's Avatar

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    Re: Something to Think About





    Give a lib a fish--he eats for a day

    Teach a lib to fish--he is back the next day asking for more free fish.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    One bad JuJu Array title="43Hitman has a reputation beyond repute"> 43Hitman's Avatar

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    Re: Something to Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by teegre View Post
    Let me get this straight...

    Teams being on the field for the Anthem started in 2009.

    Pffft... thanks, Obama!!!
    I honestly thought the Anthem thing with players on the field started right after 9-11-01.


    If that's true then ​Pfft....thanks, Bush!!!!






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