I Agree With Tomlin's Decision To Not Bring The Team Out!

[RunNGun]

Well why? Why are Conservatives so easily offended? Why do they always accuse others of being so sensative yet they are pretty much the definition of the word. Why can't we just live and let live. Why does there always have to be this hate? This divide? I really wish my Country would be United!

If you think athletes kneeling during the anthem are helping this countries problem of division then you are dilusional. It's making it worse and it's on a downward spiral. We all want unity, but a lot easier said than done.

[Craic]

This is coming from a 57 year-old who served ten years in the United States Army:

I find it distasteful when people or groups use the US Flag, or disrespect the National Anthem. As a born-and-raised Baltimorean, I also do not like the shouting of "O!" as is often done. When I attend a professional sports event, I stand, doff my cap (if worn), place my hand over my heart and face the flag during the NA. When finished, although really "against the rules", I snap a quick hand salute in deference to duty long past.

Having said that, while I believe other forms of protest are better suited than not honoring the flag or anthem, this is the United States of America. Now, had Goodell made it mandatory to stand immediately post-Kap, as a business the NFL would have had the right to do so. But President Trump escalated the magnitude with his rhetoric. Had he merely stated he wished the players showed respect to the flag and anthem, no more might have occurred. But calling certain NFL players SOB's and stating they should be fired polarized what was a few players into a league-wide stance of brotherhood. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

Having said all that...I would not want to have been the Steeler who told Villaneuva he better not go out the tunnel alone and stand at attention during the NA. You would have seen the football player disappear and the Ranger emerge in a New York second.

And finally, we now understand how a Ravens fan can be a decent human being!



And although it is passe anymore to say it, I still thank you for your service.

[Devilsdancefloor]

if you never had to fold and hand a flag to a crying widow, you'll not get why this is SO fucking important find another way to protest your "oppression" period.

[BurghBoy412]

If you think athletes kneeling during the anthem are helping this countries problem of division then you are dilusional. It's making it worse and it's on a downward spiral. We all want unity, but a lot easier said than done.

It's not solving a problem. However if you feel like a person kneeling during the anthem is doing anything to you at all. Well sir if I where in your shoes I'd seriously take a long look at my life. It has zero effect on you unless you let it.

[Craic]

I just don't understand how a man could go to war and see all kinds of violence and things unimaginable. Then get back and be so easily offended. It just seems like you would have way thicker skin after fighting in a war.

I think you're missing the point. When a person goes to war, they go to fight for a set of ideals and freedoms that are represented in the flag. They take an oath not to a man, but to the Constitution of the United States, which is the document affirming the ideals and freedoms represented by the flag. When those soldiers die, they come home in flag-draped coffins because they have died for those ideals and freedoms.

Whether you agree with that perspective or not, to many vets, when you disrespect the flag, you're pissing on the deaths of men and women that were closer to a vet than their own family. Moreover, you're doing it while exploiting the very freedoms their years of service and/or deaths provided.

- - - Updated - - -

if you never had to fold and hand a flag to a crying widow, you'll not get why this is SO fucking important find another way to protest your "oppression" period.

/closethread

[fansince'76]

If you think athletes kneeling during the anthem are helping this countries problem of division then you are dilusional. It's making it worse and it's on a downward spiral. We all want unity, but a lot easier said than done.

I think our Commander-in-Chief needs to be reminded of that as well. As someone else pointed out, this whole National Anthem issue had just about fizzled out before he brought a gallon of gasoline and a blow torch to the party...

[Craic]

I think our Commander-in-Chief needs to be reminded of that as well. As someone else pointed out, this whole National Anthem issue had just about fizzled out before he brought a gallon of gasoline and a blow torch to the party...

I actually said pretty much the exact same thing to my wife last night. Do you remember the days when the president was above all of this?

[BurghBoy412]

I think you're missing the point. When a person goes to war, they go to fight for a set of ideals and freedoms that are represented in the flag. They take an oath not to a man, but to the Constitution of the United States, which is the document affirming the ideals and freedoms represented by the flag. When those soldiers die, they come home in flag-draped coffins because they have died for those ideals and freedoms.

Whether you agree with that perspective or not, to many vets, when you disrespect the flag, you're pissing on the deaths of men and women that were closer to a vet than their own family. Moreover, you're doing it while exploiting the very freedoms their years of service and/or deaths provided.

How does being emotional and sensative about the issue solve anything? When emotion gets involved people become irrational. How does irate, irrational behavior solve anything? How do we get both sides to the table without all the discord? How do we have rational progress towards a solution that will make all members of our UNION feel satisfied?

[GBMelBlount]

if you never had to fold and hand a flag to a crying widow, you'll not get why this is SO fucking important find another way to protest your "oppression" period.

Amen, brother.

Thank you for your service.

[Mojouw]

I think you're missing the point. When a person goes to war, they go to fight for a set of ideals and freedoms that are represented in the flag. They take an oath not to a man, but to the Constitution of the United States, which is the document affirming the ideals and freedoms represented by the flag. When those soldiers die, they come home in flag-draped coffins because they have died for those ideals and freedoms.

Whether you agree with that perspective or not, to many vets, when you disrespect the flag, you're pissing on the deaths of men and women that were closer to a vet than their own family. Moreover, you're doing it while exploiting the very freedoms their years of service and/or deaths provided.

Unfortunately, that is the power of freedoms. They cut both ways. In order to obtain and preserve a free society, we will always need individuals to make the ultimate sacrifice as surety for those freedoms. And just as we must ensure that we honor that, we must remain vigilante that our desire to do honor to one segment of our society does not limit the freedoms of other segments.

Now none of this talk of freedoms and protests and sacrifice is meant to tell people how they must feel or must react. That is far from my intention. But, unfortunately, the basic civics of the situation is that just as much as the flag is symbol of the fallen, it remains a powerful symbol of other aspects of our society as well. One of those aspects is that all who live here are free to think, act, and believe as they choose (outside of criminal limits). One of those choices may be to use the anthem as a vehicle to voice anger and concerns they have about injustice they perceive in the world around them.

If we as a society should listen to the better angels on our shoulders and remember the meaning of the flag to soldiers and their families; then we also should listen to our brother and sister citizens who are vocalizing the pain, mistreatment, and injustice that is part of their lived experience. How can anyone understand anything if no one will simply stop and listen?

[BurghBoy412]

if you never had to fold and hand a flag to a crying widow, you'll not get why this is SO fucking important find another way to protest your "oppression" period.

You cannot argue with that. Without a doubt it's an incredibly heart wrenching thing to have to do. I cannot imagine the feeling. However I would like to ask you. What would you find to be an acceptable form of protest? I only ask because I see a lot of offended people on here. Yet, I don't see any of them offering a an alternative solution.

[BurghBoy412]

Anger from either side is not a solution.

[Hawkman]

Anger from either side is not a solution.

Absolutely true!

[Devilsdancefloor]

You cannot argue with that. Without a doubt it's an incredibly heart wrenching thing to have to do. I cannot imagine the feeling. However I would like to ask you. What would you find to be an acceptable form of protest? I only ask because I see a lot of offended people on here. Yet, I don't see any of them offering a an alternative solution.

go out to these communities where they're have problems uses your star power to bring people together, then you'll never have to protest anything, this type of protest only divides us all. I am just a very sad American today.

[Steeldude]

What's he suppose to say? He has to play with those morons for 13 more games. AV is a hell of a man who shouldn't apologize for any of his actions from yesterday.

I am sure they laid a guilt trip on him.

[Dwinsgames]

You cannot argue with that. Without a doubt it's an incredibly heart wrenching thing to have to do. I cannot imagine the feeling. However I would like to ask you. What would you find to be an acceptable form of protest? I only ask because I see a lot of offended people on here. Yet, I don't see any of them offering a an alternative solution.

file for a permit in your local municipality for said day /time /location advertise it and protest PEACEABLY for as long as your heart desires ....

when I say peaceably that means NO violence , NO destruction of property , NO blocking the roadways and obstructing commerce .... hold your signs , chant your slogans and at the end of the day go home to your families and have a nice meal with no harm done to anyone or anything .... the key is do it on YOUR time not mine , when I have a plight I promise to do it on MY time not yours and you can join in with me or avoid it that is your choice ...

but do not force feed it on anyone once you force feed it will always have opposition / counter protest and confrontation that does nobody any good and NEVER gets a good conversation started and that conversation is the entire reason for the protest to begin with because you can never have change without discussion

[StillCurtains]

Yea, it was real sad not seeing the team come out. I agree, it is a sad, screwed up world we live in today. As a Army vet, I hate seeing everything in the world having to be so damn politically correct. I'm afraid of what the future is leading to for our young ones. As I mentioned, I served my time in the late 60's, early 70's during the VietNam era, and lost alot of some dear friends......sacrificing for all to live their dreams in peace. I believe in speaking what you think, which I do, but not hurting someone else in process. But I do draw the line to my Country and my Flag. I took an oath to defend both, and I still abide to that oath. I wish athletes, actors and professionals would just do their jobs and leave the damn politics ( of which they know nothing about) to the politicians...(which looks like they know nothing about also). Just play football and leave me enjoy my football Steeler Sunday's ! Let's all just take a deep breath and move on, and maybe have the rule of.......Stand for the Flag/Country...and Kneel for the Cross...and I'm sure things would get better for all of us. The old infantry saying was, " you'll never find an atheist in a foxhole" still holds true.

The country promotes freedom, equality and justice. Your service is appreciated and commended. However, everyone in this country do not have the same life experiences in this country as others have. Therefore, the views that people have are based on their experiences.

The truth is that there are veterans in this country that sacrificed as you did and no longer have limbs and are disfigured. These same veterans that sacrificed so much and are in dire need of assistance have had the country turn their backs on them. They no longer stand for the flag. Should they?

How about the young lady that was killed standing against hate in Charlottesville? Where is the justice for her and her family that the country promotes?

Where is the justice and equality for the victims of countless police brutality? What is being done about it? Are the police right in EVERY single case? People can't be so narrow minded in thinking that their experience is the same experience of everyone else.

For example: Say an ice cream shop had a promotion tomorrow giving free ice cream to all customers from 2pm - 5pm. You decide to go and you realize that it's latino owned with latino customers. You stood in line and watched everyone not pay. As you reach the front of the line, they say you have to pay while everyone else is free.

The latino customers are raving about the shop and it's service and hit the neighborhood to promote it. Would you do the same? No, because you didn't get the same service.

These protests are the same thing. The Anthem that promotes this Country as Freedom, Justice and Equality has not given the same service to some as it has you and therefore they can't stand for a Country that promotes something that they have never seen.

[StillCurtains]

Yea, it was real sad not seeing the team come out. I agree, it is a sad, screwed up world we live in today. As a Army vet, I hate seeing everything in the world having to be so damn politically correct. I'm afraid of what the future is leading to for our young ones. As I mentioned, I served my time in the late 60's, early 70's during the VietNam era, and lost alot of some dear friends......sacrificing for all to live their dreams in peace. I believe in speaking what you think, which I do, but not hurting someone else in process. But I do draw the line to my Country and my Flag. I took an oath to defend both, and I still abide to that oath. I wish athletes, actors and professionals would just do their jobs and leave the damn politics ( of which they know nothing about) to the politicians...(which looks like they know nothing about also). Just play football and leave me enjoy my football Steeler Sunday's ! Let's all just take a deep breath and move on, and maybe have the rule of.......Stand for the Flag/Country...and Kneel for the Cross...and I'm sure things would get better for all of us. The old infantry saying was, " you'll never find an atheist in a foxhole" still holds true.

The country promotes freedom, equality and justice. Your service is appreciated and commended. However, everyone in this country do not have the same life experiences in this country as others have. Therefore, the views that people have are based on their experiences.

The truth is that there are veterans in this country that sacrificed as you did and no longer have limbs and are disfigured. These same veterans that sacrificed so much and are in dire need of assistance have had the country turn their backs on them. They no longer stand for the flag. Should they?

How about the young lady that was killed standing against hate in Charlottesville? Where is the justice for her and her family that the country promotes?

Where is the justice and equality for the victims of countless police brutality? What is being done about it? Are the police right in EVERY single case? People can't be so narrow minded in thinking that their experience is the same experience of everyone else.

For example: Say an ice cream shop had a promotion tomorrow giving free ice cream to all customers from 2pm - 5pm. You decide to go and you realize that it's latino owned with latino customers. You stood in line and watched everyone not pay. As you reach the front of the line, they say you have to pay while everyone else is free.

The latino customers are raving about the shop and it's service and hit the neighborhood to promote it. Would you do the same? No, because you didn't get the same service.

These protests are the same thing. The Anthem that promotes this Country as Freedom, Justice and Equality has not given the same service to some as it has you and therefore they can't stand for a Country that promotes something that they have never seen.

[tube517]

I think our Commander-in-Chief needs to be reminded of that as well. As someone else pointed out, this whole National Anthem issue had just about fizzled out before he brought a gallon of gasoline and a blow torch to the party...

Meanwhile, Puerto Rico is in shambles and the hurricane hit southern part of the country is trying to recover and rebuild.

[43Hitman]

Unfortunately, that is the power of freedoms. They cut both ways. In order to obtain and preserve a free society, we will always need individuals to make the ultimate sacrifice as surety for those freedoms. And just as we must ensure that we honor that, we must remain vigilante that our desire to do honor to one segment of our society does not limit the freedoms of other segments.

Now none of this talk of freedoms and protests and sacrifice is meant to tell people how they must feel or must react. That is far from my intention. But, unfortunately, the basic civics of the situation is that just as much as the flag is symbol of the fallen, it remains a powerful symbol of other aspects of our society as well. One of those aspects is that all who live here are free to think, act, and believe as they choose (outside of criminal limits). One of those choices may be to use the anthem as a vehicle to voice anger and concerns they have about injustice they perceive in the world around them.

If we as a society should listen to the better angels on our shoulders and remember the meaning of the flag to soldiers and their families; then we also should listen to our brother and sister citizens who are vocalizing the pain, mistreatment, and injustice that is part of their lived experience. How can anyone understand anything if no one will simply stop and listen?

[FrancoLambert]

You have no clue what he would think. He helped create the Rooney rule, so there may be a chance he would respect what they did.

What does the Rooney Rule have to do with the issue of showing respect during the National Anthem? Nothing. Apples and oranges.

The Rooney Rule tries to provide equal employment for coaches of color.

Maybe you're forgetting that Mr. Rooney served as a US ambassador.

[86WARD]

They had a plan, plan got fucked up, disaster occurred. Sounds like a typical Sunday road game for the Steelers.

People fight for the country everyday for the right to protest. People are protesting (maybe not at the most opportune time). Has nothing to do with the anthem, flag, veterans, disrespect. Let’s lock the protest threads and move on.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

From the AV press conference...

"People don't understand, but the people who are taking a knee are not saying anything negative about the military, not saying anything negative about the flag. They're just trying to protest the fact that there are some injustices in America"

[AtlantaDan]

Probably too late for the narrative to get turned around

New York Times columnist David Brooks today

Members of the working class saw the fracas as a fight about American identity. They saw Pittsburgh Steelers coach Mike Tomlin try to dissuade Alejandro Villanueva, a three-time combat veteran, from celebrating the flag he risked his life for.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/o...ol-left-region

[Dwinsgames]

They had a plan, plan got fucked up, disaster occurred. Sounds like a typical Sunday road game for the Steelers.

People fight for the country everyday for the right to protest. People are protesting (maybe not at the most opportune time). Has nothing to do with the anthem, flag, veterans, disrespect. Let’s lock the protest threads and move on.

that is where the entire disconnect begins ....

the flag and anthem can not universally stand for one thing and then someone decides to protest same anthem and flag and claim it has nothing to do with what it stands for ...


life nor the world work that way

[Mojouw]

that is where the entire disconnect begins ....

the flag and anthem can not universally stand for one thing and then someone decides to protest same anthem and flag and claim it has nothing to do with what it stands for ...


life nor the world work that way

Actually they do. Symbols, which the American flag or any flag really is, are constantly changing. Their meaning, importance, value, and significance within a culture are constantly being renegotiated to meet the needs and viewpoints of members of a given culture/society.

We may not like that, but 200+ years of anthropological research into how human societies work has demonstrated this to be a fundamental fact. Symbols have different meanings to different groups of people depending on their viewpoint. That does not invalidate or privilege any single perspective. But to say that a symbol can not simultaneously hold different meanings to different groups of people is simply incorrect.

If you lived in say about 55 BC and saw this coming over a hill in what is now France



You would likely have 2 reactions depending on your point of view regarding Ceaser and his legions. Same symbol, different meanings.

[BurghBoy412]

I am sure they laid a guilt trip on him.

Highly speculatory comment.

[Dwinsgames]

Actually they do. Symbols, which the American flag or any flag really is, are constantly changing. Their meaning, importance, value, and significance within a culture are constantly being renegotiated to meet the needs and viewpoints of members of a given culture/society.

We may not like that, but 200+ years of anthropological research into how human societies work has demonstrated this to be a fundamental fact. Symbols have different meanings to different groups of people depending on their viewpoint. That does not invalidate or privilege any single perspective. But to say that a symbol can not simultaneously hold different meanings to different groups of people is simply incorrect.

If you lived in say about 55 BC and saw this coming over a hill in what is now France



You would likely have 2 reactions depending on your point of view regarding Ceaser and his legions. Same symbol, different meanings.

that may be true with some things , but I do not believe it applies with our Nations flag and Anthem , the masses know what it stands for and that hasnt changed in my lifetime ( 1/4 of the " study" time) and it meant the same to my father and his and his and his father a wounded POW of the Civil War who spent 6 months in captivity and damned near starved to death at the hands of the Confederates ... ( and that spells out close to the same amount of time devoted to your study ) the views have not changed 1 iota ....God / Country / Family ...........

[Mojouw]

that may be true with some things , but I do not believe it applies with our Nations flag and Anthem , the masses know what it stands for and that hasnt changed in my lifetime ( 1/4 of the " study" time) and it meant the same to my father and his and his and his father a wounded POW of the Civil War who spent 6 months in captivity and damned near starved to death at the hands of the Confederates ... ( and that spells out close to the same amount of time devoted to your study ) the views have not changed 1 iota ....God / Country / Family ...........

What did or do Native Americans think of the flag during this same time period? What about Japanese-Americans in interment camps during the second world war? What did Confederates think of the flag?

Any society is a complex web of different groups with different viewpoints and perspectives. Yours is from a family steeped in US military tradition. Others have a completely different family/life experience that causes them to see the same symbol differently. Neither viewpoint invalidates the other. Both can be true at the same time, that is the reality and complicated nature of symbols. Anything powerful enough to have an important meaning in our daily lives will have multiple, sometimes competing, meanings that will undoubtedly cause conflicting emotional reactions in different sectors of the population.

Finally, it is because of what the flag stands for that it makes such a potent lightening rod to call attention to issues that some members of our culture feel are being ignored or marginalized. Again, I respect you and everyone elses' viewpoints on this matter. I am not telling you what you must believe and feel. But I am trying to discuss how there are multiple simultaneously valid viewpoints on a matter. Since this issue touches on topics I have experience with, I thought I would share.

Everyone's mileage may vary.

[Dwinsgames]

What did or do Native Americans think of the flag during this same time period? What about Japanese-Americans in interment camps during the second world war? What did Confederates think of the flag?

Any society is a complex web of different groups with different viewpoints and perspectives. Yours is from a family steeped in US military tradition. Others have a completely different family/life experience that causes them to see the same symbol differently. Neither viewpoint invalidates the other. Both can be true at the same time, that is the reality and complicated nature of symbols. Anything powerful enough to have an important meaning in our daily lives will have multiple, sometimes competing, meanings that will undoubtedly cause conflicting emotional reactions in different sectors of the population.

Finally, it is because of what the flag stands for that it makes such a potent lightening rod to call attention to issues that some members of our culture feel are being ignored or marginalized. Again, I respect you and everyone elses' viewpoints on this matter. I am not telling you what you must believe and feel. But I am trying to discuss how there are multiple simultaneously valid viewpoints on a matter. Since this issue touches on topics I have experience with, I thought I would share.

Everyone's mileage may vary.

check out the 2 videos I posted in one of the other threads a few moments ago ... damn I wish this was 1 Thread instead we have 3 or 4 with the same topic of debate going on