Last edited by Dwinsgames; 09-25-2017 at 11:57 AM.
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
Not that I really contribute much to the forum. Until this unnecessary ,meaningless topic with two sides drawing a line in the Sand and pointing a finger at each other like children is no longer a topic of discussion... I'm refraining from visiting the forum. I wish both sides much luck in their conquest to conquer each other.
A game that pays very well - we are not talking some rec league or after work coaching of Pop Warner ball here - saying it's a game is a way to trivialize someone's occupation
Tomlin is very well compensated to manage other very well compensated men - that is a business. Freelancing along with potential dissension within an organization can be bad for business.
If the players understood the entire team, including AV, would be bound by how the team voted (a point of uncertainty for me) then that was the deal
James Harrison, who is out of f***s to give about whether someone may be offended, appears to believe that was the case.
If so, AV undercut and showed up his teammates regardless of his motivation in doing so. AB has been roasted on this forum for drawing attention to himself in a manner that hurts the team by posters including me.
AV obviously feels strongly about his obligation to honor the flag but other players presumably have very strong opinions about how to respond to the provocations (which is what they are) of the President and accepted the vote of the team to respond by not appearing for the anthem. Presumably other players also would have preferred to appear for the anthem and place their hand over their heart but followed the decision of their co-workers not to do so. Now AV is portrayed as the only Steeler who wants to honor America. How would you feel if you had been placed in the position AV has placed his teammates?
This is an unfortunate situation, but I respectfully suggest that AV clearly being in the right on this is not as clear cut as I initially regarded it to be before reading about the process that led to the players deciding not to appear for the anthem.
This was not a protest of the National Anthem, but rather taking a stand for what the flag and the anthem stand for. This was a very patriotic move by the NFL.
by Military Law AV was and is required to stand at attention for the Anthem and Flag if the team can not support him then they will just have to get over themselves ....... James Harrison and Mike Tomlin included
Troops learn during basic training and officer training — their first introduction to the military — about saluting when the anthem is played and the flag is raised. The ritual is referred to as the "call to colors."
Military rules obligate servicemen and women to salute when they hear the anthem if they are in uniform. Those who happen to be in an area where the flag is being raised must salute the flag. If they don't see the flag around them, they're expected to stop and salute in the direction of the music.
Those not wearing their uniforms must stand and place their hand over their hearts. A 2008 law clarified that service members may salute even in civilian dress.
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
Hater = Realist
AV respecting the flag, the people who fought for America and obeying the rules of the NFL regarding the anthem vs Brown acting like a fool and costing the team a game.
And what exactly were these players protesting? Trump? Did they perform any protests after the game? No. They all went home until next week's game to be a distraction again.
I hope the NFL fines all of them. They won't, but they can due to the rules of the NFL regarding the anthem.
Hater = Realist
1. Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia 2. Zach Frazier, C, West Virginia 3. Roman Wilson, WR, Michigan 3. Renardo Green, CB, FSU 4. Mo Kamara, OLB, Colorado State 6. Logan Lee, DT, Iowa 6.Khristian Boyd, NT, Northern Iowa
Click on the tweet to continue the thread.
Just bravo,
1. Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia 2. Zach Frazier, C, West Virginia 3. Roman Wilson, WR, Michigan 3. Renardo Green, CB, FSU 4. Mo Kamara, OLB, Colorado State 6. Logan Lee, DT, Iowa 6.Khristian Boyd, NT, Northern Iowa
Nice try
You think Harrison is lying about this? I do not. As far as character goes, I put cooperating witnesses who had plea agreements on the stand as witnesses - the opposing side blasted them for their prior bad acts but that did not establish they were lying during their testimony.
After letting this simmer for a day I am coming around to the view AV unnecessarily showed up his teammates yesterday and could have fulfilled his obligations without generating the publicity he should have seen (and perhaps knew?) would be generated
He could have stayed with his teammates in the tunnel and still honored the flag by placing his hand over his heart - like Chickillo did yesterday
But of course everyone may not see you then
I have posted many favorable comments about AV for his service and for being a high character guy - but in this case IMO he allowed his strong beliefs in honoring the flag to get out of balance with his obligations to his teammates
This pretty much sums up my feelings on the situation...
I like all your contributions to this and other forums, but I think you might need to pump the brakes on this one.
I think you are thinking about it too hard.
Almost all unbiased and straight facts reporting on the Steelers and the anthem for the last several seasons, including Sunday, paint a picture with in context quotes and on the record sources that the team, on this one issue, is 52 guys + AV.
If you read the PennLive piece and not the clickbaity Fox News thing (http://www.pennlive.com/steelers/ind...them_vote.html) Tomlin is totally supportive and so are all other players. Harrison does say that he thought that they were all going to do the same thing, but wasn't sure what happened. However, the Harrison quote alone is totally judgement neutral. Without either the reporter's words or further statements from Harrison, it is not clear what Harrison's actual opinion was/is.
Like I said in another thread, Twitter and reporters are twisting this all for their own purposes.
I see where you're leaning, Dan. However, it's not just about this team either. Although I do applaud the display of peaceful protest, which is why we honor the flag in the first place, it means different things to different people. For AV, his family/team extend to fallen brothers and sisters he fought beside not that long ago. For him it's about honoring memories and emotions I cannot comprehend. I don't see AV as an 'attention whore', or looking for publicity. I think he did what he felt was his obligation. Which was his right to peacefully protest as well.
I think AV got tired of all the BS and did what his heart guided him to do. He was right to not be afraid to show respect for our country.
All Defense!
I agree I need to let this go but will shut it down after summing up here to avoid leaving any misimpression I think AV is a bad guy who has burned off his all of his goodwill with his teammates.
I do not agree that until this past weekend the Steelers rule on anthem issues was 52 guys + AV, rather than a unified team of 53. Instead, Tomlin has said a major reason the Steelers have not experienced any anthem protests is because of their respect for AV.
Tomlin that said part of the reason why every member of the team would stand for the National Anthem was that they wanted to honor Villanueva, a military veteran that received the Bronze Star after serving three tours of duty in Afghanistan.
"I know all of our players will be standing out of respect for their teammate, Alejandro Villanueva," Tomlin said.
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/m...ueva-veterans/
Steelers other than AV previously had said how important participating in the anthem was to them
Defensive end Cam Heyward said the playing of the national anthem before a game is “the time I take very personal” and he uses the moment to “show dedication and salute” the military people who serve the U.S....
Heyward was asked if it would bother him if one of his teammates elected to do what Kaepernick did before a game.
“No, it’s not going to break my heart,” Heyward said. “But, at the same time, I’m going to make sure I show respect. And he better have a damn good reason supporting why he doesn’t want to do it.”
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201608290128
The President's comments on Friday night and Saturday tweets obviously changed the status quo
Like you I prefer direct quotes when possible.
I posted Ben's statement last night.
http://www.espn.com/espn/now?nowId=2...334296478103-4
I do not see anything in there about Ben saying "whatever we did (except for AV) we needed to make sure we were unified (except for AV) as one group and the conclusion was made by everybody that the best thing to do (except for AV) was to stay in the tunnel."
After the game, no surprise Ben was asked about AV
However, when the subject of Alejandro Villanueva coming out of the tunnel came up, things changed. A reported asked Big Ben if that was a problem to which he just said, “no.”
http://steelerswire.usatoday.com/201...impacted-team/
When given the opportunity at that time to say it was understood AV was not bound by any agreement of the rest of the team had reached Ben declined to do so and simply said he did not have a problem with it.
I was the one who posted the PennLive piece here - that is the first story I read that discussed the players' deliberations and had the Harrison quote.
Multiple players said that before the vote they had come to the understanding that whatever the team ultimately decided, by popular show of hands, would determine what they would all do while the "Star-Spangled Banner" was sung before Sunday's 1 p.m. ET kickoff with the Chicago Bears. Some disagreement remained after the game on if left tackle and Bronze Star Army Ranger Alejandro Villanueva would be exempt from the collective decision....
[E]veryone else not appearing for the anthem and everyone else accepted there would be an exception for Villanueva, Hubbard said.
http://www.pennlive.com/steelers/ind...them_vote.html
I do not read that excerpt to state it was clear on Sunday that AV was understood to have a blank check to opt out out of any agreement.
And while Harrison may not be passing judgment on the propriety of what AV did he clearly thought everyone was bound by the group decision.
Harrison did not think anyone was exempt.
"We thought we were all in attention with the same agreement, obviously, " he said. "But, I guess we weren't."
http://www.pennlive.com/steelers/ind...them_vote.html
I then read the Tomlin transcript and posted that rather than link to a story that did not have verbatim quotes. In response to being asked about AV Tomlin said he would have preferred 100% participation.
Question: Re: Villaneueva being on the field for the anthem:
Tomlin: Like I said, I was looking for a hundred percent participation.
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/09...ce-transcript/
If he did not get that participation from AV he clearly wanted it. Instead Tomlin is now a pinata for Fox News for truthfully stating what he was looking for.
AV has served his country honorably and appears to be a good guy who is popular with his teammates. Not that he needs it from me but I continue to regard him as one of the most admirable players on the team.
But as evidenced by the Heyward quote, he is not the only patriotic Steeler and presumably not the only Steeler who would have strongly preferred to show his support for the flag on Sunday for all to see. Those other Steelers honored the team decision and stood with their teammates in the tunnel, at least one with his hand over his heart to honor the flag.
Going forward the Steelers are going to close ranks and I bet will not be having any more anthem protests. I also am confident they will not let this be a problem given their respect for AV.
But that does not change my view that this is a distraction that might not have peaked (some are calling for Trump to invite AV to the White House) and could have been avoided if AV had stood with his teammates. Regardless of motive he elected not to stand with them - that is a fact.
Having the liberty to take a different course of action does mean you have to.
With that I am done - I lost posting privileges on SFF in 2008 because I went over the line and do not want to repeat that.
As others have posted, sports are supposed to be an entertaining diversion - unfortunately they are used by politicians who should have better things to do to divide us.
Last edited by AtlantaDan; 09-25-2017 at 03:58 PM.
AV made his teammates and a large portion of the NFL look petty and beyond childish. Everything I have ever seen or read about him indicates that he is simply an exemplary person, and his previous comments about the anthem protests were spot-on. I would seriously question anyone who is doubting his motives or whether there was something negative about his actions.
I can barely even begin to express how disappointing the entire anthem protest shitshow has been. Here are a group of players who had the financial means, public visibility, and fan following/general goodwill, to actually make a difference in addressing some social problem if they had wanted to. They could've done a lot more than you or me to actually affect things in a constructive way. Instead, they played Follow-The-Shithead and imitated the poorly thought-out action of a low-character dimwit, and succeeded in pissing everyone off even more. Great job, guys. I mean GREAT fucking job.
When I was a kid, I remember once asking my dad (who has nothing to do with the military) why they played the national anthem before a baseball game, and he said, "Because it's good to stop for a minute and think about how lucky you are that you CAN go to a baseball game. You're have your freedom, and you're safe going to a baseball game. It may not seem like much, but a lot of people in the world don't even have that." Still makes a lot of sense to me.
See you Space Cowboy ...
Maybe, just maybe country and honor comes ahead of the NFL.
Neal, squat, sit for the NA your just practicing your first amendment rights.
Practice your first amendment rights and stand for the NA and your vilified.
Give a lib a fish--he eats for a day
Teach a lib to fish--he is back the next day asking for more free fish.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
http://bigben7.com/
Ben's statement from his website:
I was unable to sleep last night and want to share my thoughts and feelings on our team’s decision to remain in the tunnel for the National Anthem yesterday. The idea was to be unified as a team when so much attention is paid to things dividing our country, but I wish we approached it differently. We did not want to appear divided on the sideline with some standing and some kneeling or sitting.
As a team, it was not a protest of the flag or the Anthem. I personally don’t believe the Anthem is ever the time to make any type of protest. For me, and many others on my team and around the league, it is a tribute to those who commit to serve and protect our country, current and past, especially the ones that made the ultimate sacrifice.
I appreciate the unique diversity in my team and throughout the league and completely support the call for social change and the pursuit of true equality. Moving forward, I hope standing for the Anthem shows solidarity as a nation, that we stand united in respect for the people on the front lines protecting our freedom and keeping us safe. God bless those men and women.
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
fyi ....
Large amounts of federal aid began moving into Puerto Rico on Saturday, welcomed by local officials who praised the Trump administration’s response but called for the emergency loosening of rules long blamed for condemning the U.S. territory to second-class status (The Jones Act).
…(Gov. Ricardo) Rossello and other officials praised the federal government for planning its response in detail before the storm hit, a contrast with what Puerto Rico has long seen as the neglect of 3.4 million Americans living in a territory without a vote in Congress or the electoral college.
“This is the first time we get this type of federal coordination,” said Resident Commission Jenniffer Gonzalez, Puerto Rico’s non-voting representative in Washington.
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
Other sources paint a vastly different picture:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...hurricane.html
"So far, the Trump administration has dispatched an anemic Federal Emergency Management Agency mission and sundry military units to assess the situation and provide support. But in some cases it took the federal government days to even contact local leaders in Puerto Rico’s major cities, let alone deploy aid. Only the most rudimentary military support is now on the ground."
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/us/hur...ico/index.html
""We need something tangible, a bill that actually answers to our need right now," he said. "Otherwise, there will be ... a massive exodus to the (mainland) United States.""
http://www.politico.com/story/2017/0...overnor-243081
"We need more resources from the Department of Defense so we can get helicopters and resources,” Rossello told POLITICO in a phone interview Sunday night."
So depending on what the source wants to make it sound like, everything is either fine in Puerto Rico or a post-apocalyptic hellscape. Either way, Americans are in a bad way and the President appeared to spend his weekend worrying about what a bunch of NFL players do for a few minutes out of the week.
the Cowboys were kneeling before the anthem was played but stood up(arm-to-arm) when it began.
1. Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia 2. Zach Frazier, C, West Virginia 3. Roman Wilson, WR, Michigan 3. Renardo Green, CB, FSU 4. Mo Kamara, OLB, Colorado State 6. Logan Lee, DT, Iowa 6.Khristian Boyd, NT, Northern Iowa
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now
1. Amarius Mims, OT, Georgia 2. Zach Frazier, C, West Virginia 3. Roman Wilson, WR, Michigan 3. Renardo Green, CB, FSU 4. Mo Kamara, OLB, Colorado State 6. Logan Lee, DT, Iowa 6.Khristian Boyd, NT, Northern Iowa
if the NFL is a business as they keep claiming then Stadiums are a workplace ... last I checked its not OK to protest while on the clock , that is something you have a right to do but to do on your own time ...
fans are paying for a product if they are not happy with said product they have a right to voice their opinion for it is them ( the fans ) that are flipping the bill for the entire shooting match
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. Eagles problem now