Pass Coverages

[Mojouw]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/09...hleticism-int/

This clip points out something really good. Don't worry too much about Watt's INT. But look at the early completion to Coleman.

Almost everyone in the game thread and the immediate aftermath of the Browns' loss (I mean win...I keep getting those confused!) was banging the table about man and zone coverages with the usual issue of CB cushions coming up.

On the TV broadcast, the completion to Coleman, looked like a "big CB cushion" completion (copyright by angry Steelers message board posters) but in reality it was not enough cushion by the LB completion. Shocking. NFL coverages are complicated and not readily apparent from the TV broadcast. Again, I know, almost totally unbelievable.

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/09...hleticism-int/

This clip points out something really good. Don't worry too much about Watt's INT. But look at the early completion to Coleman.

Almost everyone in the game thread and the immediate aftermath of the Browns' loss (I mean win...I keep getting those confused!) was banging the table about man and zone coverages with the usual issue of CB cushions coming up.

On the TV broadcast, the completion to Coleman, looked like a "big CB cushion" completion (copyright by angry Steelers message board posters) but in reality it was not enough cushion by the LB completion. Shocking. NFL coverages are complicated and not readily apparent from the TV broadcast. Again, I know, almost totally unbelievable.

Its a nice breakdown by Kozora, but in comparing the 2 plays its not apples to apples.

The route to Coleman is a sideline completion of 10 yards, where the INT by Watt is a 25 YD route, so his criticism of Chickillo not being able to get to the wide flat on a quicker progressing route doesn't seem like an accurate comparison based upon the timing of the routes.

Also, on the INT the Safety(Mitchell) is coming up to cover the slot or blitz, or something, so he is in the seam to prevent a quick slant to the slot WR. On the completion to Coleman, the Safety (Davis) turns and bails out to deep 1/2 of the field and leaves the seam, so if Chickillo bails out to the flat quickly it will be an easy completion down the seam.

Again, its a good breakdown, but its comparing apples to oranges and trying to say that one is better than the other.

[polamalubeast]

I had no problem using the zone coverage against the Browns, but against the Vikings they need to use the man to man coverage.

[Mojouw]

Its a nice breakdown by Kozora, but in comparing the 2 plays its not apples to apples.

The route to Coleman is a sideline completion of 10 yards, where the INT by Watt is a 25 YD route, so his criticism of Chickillo not being able to get to the wide flat on a quicker progressing route doesn't seem like an accurate comparison based upon the timing of the routes.

Also, on the INT the Safety(Mitchell) is coming up to cover the slot or blitz, or something, so he is in the seam to prevent a quick slant to the slot WR. On the completion to Coleman, the Safety (Davis) turns and bails out to deep 1/2 of the field and leaves the seam, so if Chickillo bails out to the flat quickly it will be an easy completion down the seam.

Again, its a good breakdown, but its comparing apples to oranges and trying to say that one is better than the other.

That sounds like an even more detailed breakdown. My only point was that sometimes cushions by CBs are not the mark of the devil and can be part of a more complex coverage design that doesn't automatically need to be lumped into man coverage = winning and zone coverage = losing.

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

I had no problem using the zone coverage against the Browns, but against the Vikings they need to use the man to man coverage.

If they do play zone Diggs and the TE will have lots of yards.

[polamalubeast]

If they do play zone Diggs and the TE will have lots of yards.

Agreed

Sometimes,I said that Haley has to trust his o-line more often, it's the same thing for Butler with his corners

Don't play the zone coverage against them even if the man coverage do not work early!

[Mojouw]

You all are missing my point - there are no simple answers. Simplfying this down to zone or man and nothing in between is a lazy analysis and a gross oversimplification.

1. Stefon Diggs is regarded by some as an emerging route running tactician that is cut from the same cloth as AB. Anyone recall what AB does to single man coverage with out safety and/or LB help?

2. Last season the Vikings offensive line was worse than some of those infamous early 2000's Steelers units. They should be susceptible to blitzes and pressure packages. This usually means some mixture of zone concepts behind the front line.

3. Thielen is emerging as a terrific weapon. He now works almost totally out of the slot. Who is it that you want to single up on him?

I'm not saying that I want to play some soft zone, but the reality is that NFL teams rarely employ and single coverage scheme or concept during a give game. The ability to mix and match coverages and fronts is what is likely going to get things done. I'm fine with some zone as long as it allows for a ton of pressure on the passer. Man can work too if it leads to actually passes defensed and what not.

Ideally, play a mix of those and a few other things to really get Bradford and the Vikes guessing!

[JimHarbaugh'ssoakedtissue]

Agreed

Sometimes,I said that Haley has to trust his o-line more often, it's the same thing for Butler with his corners

Don't play the zone coverage against them even if the man coverage do not work early!

Yep would be nice to have a defense coordinator that knows what team to play zone on and what team to play man. Butler has no excuses this year and has enough talent to play both.

[polamalubeast]

You all are missing my point - there are no simple answers. Simplfying this down to zone or man and nothing in between is a lazy analysis and a gross oversimplification.

1. Stefon Diggs is regarded by some as an emerging route running tactician that is cut from the same cloth as AB. Anyone recall what AB does to single man coverage with out safety and/or LB help?

2. Last season the Vikings offensive line was worse than some of those infamous early 2000's Steelers units. They should be susceptible to blitzes and pressure packages. This usually means some mixture of zone concepts behind the front line.

3. Thielen is emerging as a terrific weapon. He now works almost totally out of the slot. Who is it that you want to single up on him?

I'm not saying that I want to play some soft zone, but the reality is that NFL teams rarely employ and single coverage scheme or concept during a give game. The ability to mix and match coverages and fronts is what is likely going to get things done. I'm fine with some zone as long as it allows for a ton of pressure on the passer. Man can work too if it leads to actually passes defensed and what not.

Ideally, play a mix of those and a few other things to really get Bradford and the Vikes guessing!

Sometimes it's not that hard!

You double Diggs and you put your best corner on their 2nd best receiver(Thielen)!

I do not think that the vikings offense is great as it was the case against the Saints.The Saints defense is atrocious since the bountygate!

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

That sounds like an even more detailed breakdown. My only point was that sometimes cushions by CBs are not the mark of the devil and can be part of a more complex coverage design that doesn't automatically need to be lumped into man coverage = winning and zone coverage = losing.

You are correct, cushions are not a bad thing as a lot of casual fans think. Its only bad when there are 3 yards for a 1st down and the CB gives 10 YDS and the QB is under center.

A lot of fans don't get the fact that most CB's can give a good cushion of 7-10 yards on a QB in shotgun and are still reading the route and when the QB gets to his back foot and opens his shoulders. The notion that you need to play press man in a league where the rules benefit the Offense and most WR's run 4.3 or 4.4 is a bit too simplistic IMO.

[Mojouw]

Sometimes it's not that hard!

Sorry. But this is the NFL. It is always that hard.

[BurghBoy412]

I think I'm going to stop over thinking it and over analyzing it. I'm simply going to sit back and watch this Defensive unit mesh into a wrecking ball. This will be a work in progress for the entirety of the season. I figure sometime around the bye week this Defense will be clicking on all cylinders. I feel as though it would be foolish to expect zero growing pains. Each season is like a painting with a new canvass. As the season goes along you get more and more detailed. Then all of the sudden boom MASTERPIECE!! Hopefully that is.

[Dwinsgames]

do we need to play man coverage ? absolutely

do we need to play zone coverage ? absolutely

do we need to play man with zone around it ? absolutely

do we need to rush the OLBers ? absolutely

do we need our OLBers to drop into coverage ? absolutely


so I guess what I am saying is we should not do the same things all the time , but have the ability to do them all at any time ...

predictability is defeatable , unpredictability is a winning formula and creates mistakes

[Psycho Ward 86]

3. Thielen is emerging as a terrific weapon. He now works almost totally out of the slot. Who is it that you want to single up on him?

Not disagreeing with anything you've said in this thread but when we do go man I think its palpably advantageous for us to see Burns on Diggs and Haden on Thielen. Diggs will be slow in comparison to the decent blanket coverage Burns was able to put on AB in training camp. His speed and route running wont overwhelm him. What a perfect early season test to see what covering the best did for Burns 2nd year leap. Thielen seems to be cut in this newer mold of bigger bodied slot receiver i.e Doug Baldwin, Jordan Matthews. Less athleticism and more body to attack, perfect for Haden's less athletic profile and super physical press coverage

[Mojouw]

Not disagreeing with anything you've said in this thread but when we do go man I think its palpably advantageous for us to see Burns on Diggs and Haden on Thielen. Diggs will be slow in comparison to the decent blanket coverage Burns was able to put on AB in training camp. His speed and route running wont overwhelm him. What a perfect early season test to see what covering the best did for Burns 2nd year leap. Thielen seems to be cut in this newer mold of bigger bodied slot receiver i.e Doug Baldwin, Jordan Matthews. Less athleticism and more body to attack, perfect for Haden's less athletic profile and super physical press coverage

I can see that. I just can't see doing it all game. Those two are very talented. Throw in Kyle Rudoph and even the disappointing Treadwell, and I they are going to win a big play in 60 minutes of man coverages. That was all I was really trying to say.

I think you throw the kitchen sink at them and get everyone all turned around. Then the offense starts making mistakes. This is what this defense used to do. It has been far too long since we have all seen that.

[Psycho Ward 86]

heres good footage of plays that Joe Haden was involved in against the Browns. The guy running this youtube channel says he's going to do this for Joe Haden every single week. Should be interesting

[BurghBoy412]

heres good footage of plays that Joe Haden was involved in against the Browns. The guy running this youtube channel says he's going to do this for Joe Haden every single week. Should be interesting

I thought he played pretty damn good for only being with the team for a week. There wouldn't happen to be a video on Burns, would there?

[RunNGun]

do we need to play man coverage ? absolutely

do we need to play zone coverage ? absolutely

do we need to play man with zone around it ? absolutely

do we need to rush the OLBers ? absolutely

do we need our OLBers to drop into coverage ? absolutely


so I guess what I am saying is we should not do the same things all the time , but have the ability to do them all at any time ...

predictability is defeatable , unpredictability is a winning formula and creates mistakes

I absolutely agree with this. They're not going to play man to man the whole game. I don't see that happening against any opponent. The idea is to mix it up and disguise the defense and confuse the QB. Last year we couldn't do that with our inability to play man. Could have a couple players with double digit sacks this season due to keeping the offense guessing.

[teegre]

So...

There's not a one-word, blanket-statement panacea???

[polamalubeast]

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

Is this something you put together and then put on YouTube?

[El-Gonzo Jackson]

OK, I see its Kozora link.

Around the 8 minute mark he mentions "the Steelers played dime 10 times out of 65 plays, with William Gay playing dime in the first half, then Mike Hilton playing it the 2nd half"...but then shows 2 plays in a row with both Gay and Hilton on the field at the same time. I don't understand if he is showing dime and confused with who was on the field, or is he saying that Gay and Hilton alternated Nickel and is just confusing it with dime.