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Thread: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by BurghBoy412 View Post
    All this QB talk makes me realize how much I'm not looking forward to Ben retiring. Finding a Franchise QB can be a long hard road. Ugh!
    I like the volume approach. Draft a QB every year in the mid to late rounds and increase the odds of getting lucky. Works better than drafting then releasing long snappers.

  2. #32
    BurghBoy412
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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I like the volume approach. Draft a QB every year in the mid to late rounds and increase the odds of getting lucky. Works better than drafting then releasing long snappers.
    I've been wanting them to approach the secondary this way for years. In a pass happy league there shouldn't be a year when you're not drafting a DB. As far as QB I would have no problem with the same approach.

    Cue the attacks on how stupid an idea this is... Action

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by BurghBoy412 View Post
    I've been wanting them to approach the secondary this way for years. In a pass happy league there shouldn't be a year when you're not drafting a DB. As far as QB I would have no problem with the same approach.

    Cue the attacks on how stupid an idea this is... Action
    They have been. http://pfref.com/tiny/TEKOR

    They've taken between 1-3 DBs basically every draft since 2000.

    QB every third year or so.

  4. #34
    BurghBoy412
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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post
    They have been. http://pfref.com/tiny/TEKOR

    They've taken between 1-3 DBs basically every draft since 2000.

    QB every third year or so.
    And yet they need to utilize free agency to fill holes in the secondary? What the?

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by BurghBoy412 View Post
    And yet they need to utilize free agency to fill holes in the secondary? What the?
    Hey, I never said they were any good at it...

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect


  7. #37
    BurghBoy412
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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Pretty sure Josh Rosen got himself a top 5 selection tonight!

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    There is something we're all missing though...

    The team around the QB. Do you seriously think 2004 Ben and Dak Prescott last year would've been as successful as they have been if the team around them were complete garbage? Ben had a great Offensive Line. Hines and Plax at WR. The Bus and Staley at RB, and a solid Defense filled with stars like Porter, Hampton, and of course Troy in the secondary.

    Dak had Zeke, one of the best O-Lines in the league, Dez Bryant at WR, Witten at TE, and the Cowboys D was no seive either.

    How good would Ben and Dak had been if they were drafted by a shitty team devoid of talent like the Jets or the Browns? Not very well I assume. With Ben, the 2013 Steelers started 0-4 and finished 8-8 after another 8-8 finish the year prior. Was it Ben's fault? The 2012-13 Steelers severely regressed in talent and were not that good. It doesn't matter how good your QB is, if the team around him is shit, he's not doing anything.

    Could it just be that The Steelers had a hard time finding success after Bradshaw left, not because of the QB position, but because the teams they had were simply not that good to win a Super Bowl?

    We know the 80's teams weren't that good, but could it be that we overrate the 90's teams? The 90's Steelers won 12 games only once in what was a very mediocre AFC, and if they were that good, they wouldn't have fallen flat on their face against the Chargers in 1994, no matter who was at QB.

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    The steelers were great between 1992 to 1997, although the steelers had an average QB in 4 of its years and a mediocre in 1996 and 1997.64-32 and the year that were at the super bowl in 1995, the steelers had dominated the entire second half but 2 killer interception killed the steelers.

    It is true that a young QB needs to be in a very good situation and the 1990's Steelers, it would have been a very good situation for a young QB.

    Many think the QB was less important in the 1990s, maybe it is true, but between 1992 to 1999, every super bowl winner had a HOF QB.

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by BurghBoy412 View Post
    Pretty sure Josh Rosen got himself a top 5 selection tonight!
    Rosen was almost picked twice. One badly thrown ball went right through a defenders hands and into the receiver.

    But I guess its better to be lucky than good.

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    what those scouts came away with from their journeys ............ HEARTBURN

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    When you are in a search for a franchise QB as a organisation you must have:
    1. Stabillity
    2. Great evaluators (GM, coaches, scouts, etc.)
    3. Dumb luck.


  13. #43
    BurghBoy412
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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Almost intercepted doesn't count. Ben was "almost" intercepted in the Superbowl vs Arizona.

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Josh Allen has an injury in his non-throwing shoulder.

    So for anyone who is high on the guy, his draft status may drop.

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by BurghBoy412 View Post
    It seems like all the teams at the bottom are already trying to get in position to draft him. I'll laugh my ass off when he decides to stay another year.

    As far as Allen goes I think he's the classic boom or bust player.

    My early favorite for a Steelers pick is Baker Mayfield. He's a bit on the small side but plays with great energy and is a very accurate passer. Accuracy is a must at the next level.
    Mayfield has lit up the Buckeyes tonight. Seems like a hell of a leader as well.

    Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk
    http://pic70.picturetrail.com/VOL1850/7714131/15251346/321617073.jpg

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluecoat96 View Post
    Mayfield has lit up the Buckeyes tonight. Seems like a hell of a leader as well.

    Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk
    Mayfield isn't a traditional NFL QB prospect, but more in the category of an elusive smaller QB that evades his rushers to make plays. Kind of like a Johnny Manziel, without some of the other issues. That being said, I think what he has put on film like this video, shows he cant evade the rush at the next level.


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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Mayfield isn't a traditional NFL QB prospect, but more in the category of an elusive smaller QB that evades his rushers to make plays. Kind of like a Johnny Manziel, without some of the other issues. That being said, I think what he has put on film like this video, shows he cant evade the rush at the next level.

    Yeah I agree that Mayfield best compares to Johnny Suckball on the field (and possibly off the field as well)

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    I keep hearing the biggest knock on most college QBs is that they play from shotgun and rarely take snaps from under center. I have watched a few games and most of the highlights from the top rated QBs this season and THEY ALL WORK FROM SHOTGUN. How do any of these guys separate or how do you explain the knocks?

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by Born2Steel View Post
    I keep hearing the biggest knock on most college QBs is that they play from shotgun and rarely take snaps from under center. I have watched a few games and most of the highlights from the top rated QBs this season and THEY ALL WORK FROM SHOTGUN. How do any of these guys separate or how do you explain the knocks?
    True that the majority of college programs run from a shotgun, while there are some that do work in some sets from under center like Michigan, Indiana, etc. For me the thing to watch is how those QB's set their feet once getting the snap. Look at Lamar Jackson here in this clip and how once he carries our the play fake, then even steps up in the pocket he keeps his feet perpendicular to the WR and then drives off his back foot, then keeps his arms together on the football and then delivers the pass. Its like a baseball pitcher bringing the glove up and throwing from the stretch and delivering a strong throw.



    Then you can take a look at a bunch of throws from Baker Mayfield here and he sometimes works from a read option. In that offense he doesn't often have time to gather his feet or else he just doesn't like to and he is throwing off his back foot or without as solid of a base of footwork. A college QB with inconsistent footwork leads to off balance throws and in the NFL where windows are smaller and players are faster, that can lead to missing throws and INT's.

    IMO, that is what scouts talk about from guys that work from the shotgun and have never taken a 5 or 7 step drop in years, or are used to making reads from that drop and then redirecting their feet to the next target. The kids are used to read option and chuck it or run. Its a different game than a pro style offense.


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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    True that the majority of college programs run from a shotgun, while there are some that do work in some sets from under center like Michigan, Indiana, etc. For me the thing to watch is how those QB's set their feet once getting the snap. Look at Lamar Jackson here in this clip and how once he carries our the play fake, then even steps up in the pocket he keeps his feet perpendicular to the WR and then drives off his back foot, then keeps his arms together on the football and then delivers the pass. Its like a baseball pitcher bringing the glove up and throwing from the stretch and delivering a strong throw.



    Then you can take a look at a bunch of throws from Baker Mayfield here and he sometimes works from a read option. In that offense he doesn't often have time to gather his feet or else he just doesn't like to and he is throwing off his back foot or without as solid of a base of footwork. A college QB with inconsistent footwork leads to off balance throws and in the NFL where windows are smaller and players are faster, that can lead to missing throws and INT's.

    IMO, that is what scouts talk about from guys that work from the shotgun and have never taken a 5 or 7 step drop in years, or are used to making reads from that drop and then redirecting their feet to the next target. The kids are used to read option and chuck it or run. Its a different game than a pro style offense.

    Wait - Baker Mayfield is being talked about to run an actual NFL franchise? You gotta be putting me on! That guy has no mechanics. Like zero. I don't know much more than jack squat about QB play, but I know just enough to get me into trouble. Mayfield's feet are a hot mess and what is with that weird hip rotation at the end of his throwing motion? Looks like he is trying to rotate out of the throw. Hardly any of those throws anticipated windows or routes. It is all reaction - nothing much looks planned.

    Contrast that with Mahomes. If you watch his preseason stuff this year and even some of his college stuff, his feet at least look "right". Mayfield looks like someone never explained to him the mechanics of playing the position and just hoped his athleticism would get him by.

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Lamar Jackson and Josh Rosen look to be on the inside track to becoming the Top picks at QB in 2018. Mayfield, Darnold, and Allen are going to drop.

    I'm not too high on LJ, as he looks like another Mike Vick, but Rosen has been impressive.

  22. #52
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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    You can over analyze a guys mechanics till your eyes bleed. The analysis doesn't mean Jack s*** until these guys actually play in a regular season NFL game. You can make all the predictions you like. Analyze. Have a bias. Kick a guy for his off field issues. None of that matters until they put on a uniform on Sunday and play in an NFL game. That is the only way to tell if a guy can play in the league. You also can't predict injuries. Analysis has become nothing but a fancy word for opinion. All that being said no matter how "NFL ready" a QB might be the chances are he is going to struggle for a few seasons. Ben was the rare acception to this rule.

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Mojouw, yes Baker Mayfield is in the draft discussion because he will be in the Heisman discussion. One of the evaluators that I often agree with, Tony Pauline, has him as something like a 5th round prospect. Daniel Jerimiah believes Mayfield can be a valid #2 QB in the NFL, so maybe nobody is looking for him to be able to lead a franchise, but that will all sort out.

    I just wanted to point out the detractors of a kid that played from shotgun can really relate to footwork , but teaching a young player how to work under center us just a bit more work than those if he hasn't done any of it. Even the handoffs and footwork from there is something to learn, although its not rocket science, but if a kid has done it, the development is just that much faster IMO.

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by Edman View Post
    Lamar Jackson and Josh Rosen look to be on the inside track to becoming the Top picks at QB in 2018. Mayfield, Darnold, and Allen are going to drop.

    I'm not too high on LJ, as he looks like another Mike Vick, but Rosen has been impressive.
    I just don't see it with Jackson. Great college QB. Ends there.

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertSteel View Post
    I just don't see it with Jackson. Great college QB. Ends there.
    Ya know, I thought that last season but this year I am seeing something a bit more in terms of his willingness and ability to be a passer with some better mechanics. Kind of think he has been working on his craft in the offseason and would become a guy that can be every bit the passer of a Randall Cunningham type player from his Viking days.

    Some people make the Vick comparison, as he is that explosive an athlete, but I see Jackson as a longer strider that takes a bit more time to get up to speed and a guy that is more slender that he doesn't want to meet up with LB's or Safety too often running the ball. We will see.

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Ya know, I thought that last season but this year I am seeing something a bit more in terms of his willingness and ability to be a passer with some better mechanics. Kind of think he has been working on his craft in the offseason and would become a guy that can be every bit the passer of a Randall Cunningham type player from his Viking days.

    Some people make the Vick comparison, as he is that explosive an athlete, but I see Jackson as a longer strider that takes a bit more time to get up to speed and a guy that is more slender that he doesn't want to meet up with LB's or Safety too often running the ball. We will see.
    I haven't seen him play this year. I'm basing my opinion on last year. I'm sure I'll get the chance to watch him soon.

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Mojouw, yes Baker Mayfield is in the draft discussion because he will be in the Heisman discussion. One of the evaluators that I often agree with, Tony Pauline, has him as something like a 5th round prospect. Daniel Jerimiah believes Mayfield can be a valid #2 QB in the NFL, so maybe nobody is looking for him to be able to lead a franchise, but that will all sort out.

    I just wanted to point out the detractors of a kid that played from shotgun can really relate to footwork , but teaching a young player how to work under center us just a bit more work than those if he hasn't done any of it. Even the handoffs and footwork from there is something to learn, although its not rocket science, but if a kid has done it, the development is just that much faster IMO.
    I can see that. I just think that the powers that be for NFL teams have better start getting a handle on how to either adapt their game-plans to incorporate what "Spread" QBs can do, get better at figuring out which college guys can make the leap to NFL mechanics, or both. Either that or just give up on scouting powerhouse big-time programs and start pulling all the QBs league wide from second tier schools that run pro sets.

    More and more I think college production is a bit of a red herring at the QB position. Maybe completion percentage - but even that is getting inflated. But these offenses are so slanted towards the accumulation of stats that I am not sure a QB winning the Heisman means anything related to NFL ability. I mean Landry Jones put up gaudy college #'s.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BurghBoy412 View Post
    You can over analyze a guys mechanics till your eyes bleed. The analysis doesn't mean Jack s*** until these guys actually play in a regular season NFL game. You can make all the predictions you like. Analyze. Have a bias. Kick a guy for his off field issues. None of that matters until they put on a uniform on Sunday and play in an NFL game. That is the only way to tell if a guy can play in the league. You also can't predict injuries. Analysis has become nothing but a fancy word for opinion. All that being said no matter how "NFL ready" a QB might be the chances are he is going to struggle for a few seasons. Ben was the rare acception to this rule.
    Valid points. But name me the high quality long term NFL starter with shit mechanics? At some point fundamentals matter. There is a reason that certain ways of doing things have been around for decades. They work. Your body is a relatively straightforward machine and can only move and accomplish ludicrous athletic feats, like completing 65% of NFL Passes, in certain ways. In the clip posted, Mayfield does not consistently show the basic tools needed to do that.

    Does that guarantee that he can't? Of course not. But the percentages are working against him right now. But anything can be fixed, if a person works hard enough and is able to integrate a new way of doing things. By all accounts, Wentz has made great mechanical strides and had a darn good game yesterday. Long story short, Mayfield tries some of the stuff on that clip reel on Sundays and it is gonna end badly.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Moj, the NFL teams wont adapt game plans to what college spread offense QB's do. The last one they did that for was Bob Griffin and all that NFL defenses did was to call their friends in college and use their defensive schemes to defend the college offense that Shanny put in place for Bob. BTW, it involves disguising the read of the end and making the QB make the wrong choice to not hand it off....then it involves getting as many "hits on the QB as possible".

    The hashmarks in NCAA are wider and the overall speed of defenses is slower, so RB's like Reggie Bush, or QB's like Bob Griffin can outrun defenders. In the NFL the hashmarks are wider and most players run a 4.3- 4.6 on defense and will chase down players going lateral. You gotta make hay vertically in the NFL, whether its running between the tackles or getting a QB some protection and throwing to small windows.

    College coaches do what they can to win games and keep their jobs, not to develop players that fit an NFL system. NFL coaches need to win to keep their jobs and running a college offense gets you the Steve Spurrier or Bobby Petrino treatment.

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by El-Gonzo Jackson View Post
    Moj, the NFL teams wont adapt game plans to what college spread offense QB's do. The last one they did that for was Bob Griffin and all that NFL defenses did was to call their friends in college and use their defensive schemes to defend the college offense that Shanny put in place for Bob. BTW, it involves disguising the read of the end and making the QB make the wrong choice to not hand it off....then it involves getting as many "hits on the QB as possible".

    The hashmarks in NCAA are wider and the overall speed of defenses is slower, so RB's like Reggie Bush, or QB's like Bob Griffin can outrun defenders. In the NFL the hashmarks are wider and most players run a 4.3- 4.6 on defense and will chase down players going lateral. You gotta make hay vertically in the NFL, whether its running between the tackles or getting a QB some protection and throwing to small windows.

    College coaches do what they can to win games and keep their jobs, not to develop players that fit an NFL system. NFL coaches need to win to keep their jobs and running a college offense gets you the Steve Spurrier or Bobby Petrino treatment.
    Yeah, I think it is pretty well proven that you can't run straight-up "spread" stuff in the NFL. Just like the wildcat being cool for a hot minute. But I think there are plenty of Qbs who play in college under these spread principles but don't really couple it with the take off and run approach. Those are the guys that I would target for transitioning to the NFL style of play.

    All I am saying, I think since I keep changing my mind on this, is that not sure if you can lump all these types of QBs together.

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    Senior Member Array title="El-Gonzo Jackson has a reputation beyond repute"> El-Gonzo Jackson's Avatar

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    Re: Steelers Send Scouts To Watch Top QB Prospect

    Quote Originally Posted by Mojouw View Post

    All I am saying, I think since I keep changing my mind on this, is that not sure if you can lump all these types of QBs together.
    Nobody ever does lump them together, except the guys that falsely tweet that Tuitt is done for the year, when it looks like he is week to week.

    There are a lot of things that pro scouts look for. I think arm strength, good decision making, leadership ability, accuracy, intelligence, production, mechanics all factor into things more than if a guy got the snap from under center or shotgun

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