That guy just took a big drop in my opinion of Steeler legends.
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201707050153
Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute">
That guy just took a big drop in my opinion of Steeler legends.
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201707050153
Array title="Devilsdancefloor has a reputation beyond repute">
bitter? well he did just drop off a few notches, but he is entitled to his opinions.
For those i love i will sacrifice.
Si ventus non est, remiga
Array title="Shoes has a reputation beyond repute">
LeBeau should have been booted after being skunked by Tebow.
This.Originally Posted by Shoes
Array title="SteelerFanInStl has a reputation beyond repute">
Agreed. If he's going to be so bitter about the Steelers getting rid of him many years after they should have then screw him.
“I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play!” - Jack Lambert
Array title="AtlantaDan has a reputation beyond repute">
I get the affiliation with the Bengals since he coached there, but the Browns
Apparently still bitter about being forced out - hard to dispute his defenses were slipping after the epic 2004 - 2011 run
Without his time in Pittsburgh as a defensive coordinator he would not be in the HOF but whatever - Steelers would not have their past three Super Bowl appearances without him so thanks for that
Everyone wants to leave only when they want to go but it's a business
As Gerry Dulac noted this week, Troy seems to have the same problem even though (like LeBeau) he could have been let go sooner
Why does Troy never come around any more?
Gerry Dulac: With him, I think he's miffed at the way everything panned out, which surprises the heck out of me. One, the Steelers kept him around one year longer than they should have. And, two, Troy is the type of spiritual person who understands life and reality better than any player I've ever met. It's still so surprising to me.
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201707050105
Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute">
He sucked as a Head Coach for the Bengals..... 12-33, including a 2-14 record during his final season.
At least Arians has proven himself as a HC.
Array title="AtlantaDan has a reputation beyond repute">
But Arians was at least as delusional about his termination being some great injustice - I do not recall hearing these sort of quotes out of LeBeau
Arians said he felt betrayed by the Steelers after the team did not renew his contract. Steelers coach Mike Tomlin said in March 2012 that he ultimately made the decision to replace Arians with Todd Haley, but Kremer said Arians believes the Steelers forced Tomlin's hand....
Arians still doesn't understand why the Steelers decided he had to go. He speculated he might have been dismissed because some within the Steelers' organization believed he was "too close" to quarterback Ben Roethlisberger.
"...I had done a good job," Arians said. "Maybe not the right image, but it was a damn good job. I was pissed. But again, time heals things."
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...elers-fired-me
A "damn good job" apparently being an offense that had one time in the top 10 in points scored (9th in 2007) and one top ten finish in total yards (7th in 2009) from 2007 - 2011
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/
Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute">
Right... but like I said, at least he's done something OUTSIDE of Pittsburgh to prove himself. As a coach, what has LeBeau done aside from his tenure with the Steelers?
Array title="AtlantaDan has a reputation beyond repute">
Not much - but when he had the players the 2004 - 2011 run as defensive coordinator was epic
Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute">
Yeah before the rest of the NFL figured out the zone blitz and 2/3 of the teams in the league started running a 3-4.
2015 Titans defense 6th worst in the league ....
2016 Lebeau takes over virtually the same roster and they improved to middle of the pack after 1 season
2017 ? time will tell but he is 80 years old now too , that in itself is some sort of testament I would think as most are out of the game 10 or so years ago with nobody considering hiring them ... he at least is employable and at worst middle of the road D coordinator with potential upside to still produce top 10 defenses
Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute">
The 2016 Titans is your example of him doing something aside from the Steelers? Come back when they win the Super Bowl.
LOL, Arians did a good job of developing Ben but that is all I will give him credit for. Arians' offenses were always the weaker unit (and not just by default either). His play-calling was awful and unimaginative and often called the wrong play in the wrong situation. The year he was fired in 2011, the offense had numerous games where they finished with less than 20 points and the defense bailed them out numerous times
Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute">
One of the things I have always loved about sports, is beating friends. Having bragging rights that mean something in my 'circle'. LeBeau may be an Ohio boy at heart, but he did his best coaching with the Steelers and dominated those Browns and Bengals. Let the guy move on. His words only mean something to him, not as an insult to anyone else. Hell, he played in Detroit didn't he?
Please, Google before you post. Dick Lebeau would be in the HOF as a coach if he never worked a day in Pittsburgh in his life.
His invention of the zone blitz defense during the eighties and nineties with the Bengals would have assured him of his coaching hall status. That's leaving aside his playing career.
The zone blitz emerged as the leading counter to the west coast offense across the league. Most teams now incorporate concepts and portions of this defensive strategy regardless of their base alignment.
Lebeau has influenced football as much as any other defensive coach in the NFL over the last 3 decades.
Please, Google before you post.
>>>>Miami Dolphins defensive coach Bill Arnsparger developed the zone blitz in 1971<<<<
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_blitz
Array title="AtlantaDan has a reputation beyond repute">
With all due respect, do the chronology and check out some data rather than your recollections. To get into Canton you need excellent stats or a history of winning
LeBeau came to the Steelers as secondary coach in 1992 - he was inducted into the HOF 18 years later
Prior to his initial tenure under Cowher, LeBeau's best defenses statistically under the Bengals as the DC or HC from 1984 - 1991 were 8th in yards allowed (1987) and 7th in points allowed (1989) - nothing HOF worthy there
After he served under Cowher (a DC before coming to the Steelers) and DC Dom Capers, LeBeau was promoted to Steelers DC in 1995-96 before taking a lateral move to Cincinnati as DC in 1997 - his defenses were ranked 2nd and 3rd in yards allowed along with 9th and 4th allowed those 2 seasons - nice but nothing legendary with one Super Bowl loss and a wild card win
His return to Cincinnati as DC and HC from 1997 - 2002 was mediocre with the best rankings of 9th in yards allowed and 14th in points allowed in 2001
It was after his return to Pittsburgh in 2004 that his defenses went on a roll prior to his 2010 HOF induction, with two Super Bowl wins and an AFC championship game appearance, along with being ranked 1st in yards allowed three times and 1st or 2nd three times in the 2004 - 2009 period prior to his 2010 induction
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/LeBeDi0.htm
If you contend LeBeau gets into Canton based on his coaching work with the Bengals and inventing the zone blitz (which could not even get him hired as Cowher's first DC) without some major wins or that his induction in 2010 after the Steelers had won two Super Bowls on the back of their defense in 2005 and 2008 was just a coincidence, what took so long?
Array title="DesertSteel has a reputation beyond repute">
Excuse me, but LeBeau is not in the hall of fame as a coach, but as a player.
Array title="AtlantaDan has a reputation beyond repute">
Correct
Since he had not been retired from coaching for 5 years he could not be inducted as a coach
But his coaching career was the tipping point for his induction as a senior's committee player unless the assumption is it was only a matter of time for a player who was not inducted in the 25 years after his retirement in 1972 to be inducted by the seniors committee
For example, Donnie Shell had more Pro Bowl appearances (5 to 3) and first team All Pro seasons (3 to 0) than LeBeau but IMO will never be inducted
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...S/ShelDo00.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...L/LeBeDi00.htm
John Clayton wrote about the case for LeBeau in 2009
LeBeau's case for the Hall of Fame involves decades of great defensive play calling along with the creation of the zone defensive scheme to counter West Coast offenses. As a player, he had 62 interceptions but didn't make the Hall of Fame.
http://www.espn.com.au/nfl/playoffs2...ohn&id=3852939
And the lobbying by his players certainly helped to remind committee members about him when he was selected in 2010
LeBeau's 38-season career as an NFL head and assistant coach wasn't supposed to factor into his candidacy — only his 14 playing seasons — but the key members of the LeBeau-coached defense that helped the Steelers win the Super Bowl twice in the last five seasons didn't care. To them, a football hall of fame that excluded LeBeau wasn't a true hall of fame.
So the players began wearing replica LeBeau No. 44 Lions jerseys to functions such as the Hall of Fame game in Canton, Ohio, and to road games where they felt their influence might be felt.
https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/spor...eau-hall_N.htm
- - - Updated - - -
Thanks - enjoyed the back and forth with MojouwIf I may interject a tangent...
Mojouw vs. Atlanta Dan
Two of the most cerebral (and two of my personal favorite) posters having a debate. Woo-wee!!! This thread has made my evening.
Carry on.
"To know the zone blitz is to get to know the 3-4. Using three down linemen and four linebackers as a base defense was introduced to the NFL around 1974. Some believe Bum Phillips and the Oilers brought it to pro football, while others believe the Patriots under Chuck Fairbanks and defensive coordinator Hank Bullough were the first.
"John Madden even experimented with it early on. (He) called it the 'Orange' defense," said former Raiderslinebacker Matt Millen, who played in the 3-4 under Tom Flores.
Either way, by the back half of '74, two teams were playing a defense that had only been utilized in certain situations by the Dolphins in the early part of the decade, and not much else. New England and Houston were running it every down, and with great success.
"We had gone through a tough season in '73 and our defensive line wasn't very good," Bullough told the Boston Globe. "We had drafted Steve Nelson and Sam Hunt and they were two good-looking kids at linebacker, and I said to Chuck, 'Let's go to the 3-4,' and that's what we did."
Though it took a while to acquire the right personnel, by 1976 the Patriots were having great success with it, enough to go 11-3. In Houston, the Oilers became one of the best teams in pro football, eventually making it to back-to-back AFC Championship Games in '78 and '79.
Despite the fact that the Patriots and Oilers played slightly different versions of the 3-4, the new scheme caused trouble for offenses. The center now had a guy right on top of him, altering his responsibilities. The guards were forced to get out in space often and block agile inside linebackers, not burly, immobile defensive tackles. And most importantly, with more 'backers, defensive coordinators had more options on who to send to rush the passer, and who to drop into coverage.
By the late '70s and early '80s, the 3-4 was rampant. The Broncos switched to it in 1977, and went to the Super Bowl. The Bills, who converted in 1979, won 21 games over the next two seasons. Defensive coordinators fell in love with the scheme, and linebackers fell in love with playing in it.
"I love the 3-4," said Shawne Merriman, who has made his name in the scheme. "With four athletic linebackers able to make plays, it's harder for an offense to prepare for you. Our coaches can do different things to disrupt them."
Teams used the newly-minted defense like your dad used duct tape, finding unique ways to take advantage of having more guys behind the line and moving around.
Buy the Super Bowl XLV program on NFLShop.com:
"It's the flexibility of the scheme because you can do different things," Millen said. "You can hide guys, create matchups ... it's the versatility of what you can do."
While teams were experiencing success outside of the 4-3, the NFL's version of the brat pack was learning and assimilating. Bill Parcells embraced the 3-4 as an assistant in New England in 1980. Bill Belichick worked for Broncos head coach Red Miller, and saw firsthand how dominating the "Orange Crush" defense was with this different alignment. Parcells and Belichick would build one of the best 3-4 units in history with Lawrence Taylor and the 1986 Giants. LT won the NFL MVP that season.
Invention out of necessity
The Bengals had also converted to the four-linebacker package, and in 1984 their new defensive coordinator (LeBeau) began tweaking it in an effort to stop the emerging West Coast offense. The timing-based attack was centered around quick drops to reduce how long a quarterback held the ball, while hitting receivers in stride to rack up yards after the catch. Unfortunately, LeBeau had the machinery, but not the parts, to counter. There was no LT or Carl Banks residing in Cincinnati.
It was time to start using his four linebackers as chess pieces. Heck, he could use everybody as queens on the board -- confuse the defense as far as who was blitzing and who was dropping, rather than send the kitchen sink on every play. Yet, as a former cornerback himself, LeBeau was trying to create a "safe way to blitz" as Woodson refers to it, without exposing the secondary. Could LeBeau send three linebackers without leaving the defense vulnerable on slants and hooks? Yes, by dropping a lineman, or two, in coverage. Or he could cover with his linebackers, and blitz not one, but two, corners.
LeBeau met with former Dolphins defensive coordinator Bill Arnsparger, who had tinkered with different blitzes and zone-based defenses in the late '70s and early '80s, to discuss his ideas. He then had a meeting of the minds with open-minded head coach Sam Wyche. Within months, the "zone blitz" was born, although its current incarnation was a ways off................."
http://www.nfl.com/superbowl/story/0...vent-of-the-34
All that I know. Whatever you want to call it, Lebeau created it. If course it has roots in other things and was not created out of thin air.
I assume your argument is that the Pats invented everything.
Air Coryell is similar to Norv Turners offense. Air Coryell is based on Sid Gillmans stuff. Mike Martz ran an extreme version of it. Are they all the same thing?
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"Assume nothing." The Buddha
http://grantland.com/features/dick-l...cs-zone-blitz/
Pre Lebeau the ideas were largely deployed at the college level and during his time on the Bengals, Lebeau distilled the early principles into a revised formulation.
Lebeau's version was highly copied and drove multiple offensive tactical changes.
While (perhaps) poorly worded, my original point still holds. Lebeau's work while defensive backs coach and defensive coordinator with the Bengals would be enough to cement his legacy without his Steelers time.
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Coaches go into the hall of fame all the time for more than wins and losses.
Rolling out one of the most copied schemes of the last quarter century would've likely gotten him in.
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Array title="AtlantaDan has a reputation beyond repute">
Who other than George Allen? Bud Grant and and Marv Levy went to 4 Super Bowls
Inducted coaches listed after players in this link
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/
Since you maintain his success as DC in Pittsburgh had nothing to do with it, what other coach has been inducted for rolling out a scheme without winning something?Rolling out one of the most copied schemes of the last quarter century would've likely gotten him in.
Huh. I thought I came across a listing somewhere of more folks that went in as contributors or innovators or something mustve muddled something up.
He still did a great deal beyond just coach defenses in Pittsburgh.
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Array title="AtlantaDan has a reputation beyond repute">
Except for a few front office guys and the founder of NFL Films, "contributors" is the code word for connected owners and commissioners getting inducted
List at the bottom of this linked page after coaches and players
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/
Even with his Steelers success IMO LeBeau would have had a tough time getting inducted for all of his career work as a coordinator without also being a fine player (although his career as a player alone apparently was not enough)
This linked 2016 article on the chances of Buddy Ryan (who was DC for arguably the greatest single season defense of all time if it was not the '76 Steelers) getting inducted for his work as a coordinator reviewed how tough it is for coaches to get in, even if they designed major changes in how the game was played
The contributor, like a seniors finalist, is also voted on, for enshrinement, separately from the other finalists. But a contributor is described by the Hall of Fame as an individual who has "made outstanding contributions to professional football in capacities other than playing or coaching."
So that excludes coaches, head coaches or longtime assistants, for their careers....
Candidates such as Ryan, because they only coached in the league, do not go into the seniors pool after their 25-year eligibility as a modern-era candidate runs out -- only players go into the seniors pool. Coaches remain among the modern-era candidates, meaning they remain with the growing list of former players. That severely limits their ability to be enshrined if they did not have notable tenures as head coaches.
http://www.espn.co.uk/blog/nflnation...e-hall-of-fame
Okay! Good stuff. I kinda think that is more evidence that the Hall might have their heads as far up their butts as I do sometimes!Except for a few front office guys and the founder of NFL Films, "contributors" is the code word for connected owners and commissioners getting inducted
List at the bottom of this linked page after coaches and players
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/
Even with his Steelers success IMO LeBeau would have had a tough time getting inducted for all of his career work as a coordinator without also being a fine player (although his career as a player alone apparently was not enough)
This linked 2016 article on the chances of Buddy Ryan (who was DC for arguably the greatest single season defense of all time if it was not the '76 Steelers) getting inducted for his work as a coordinator reviewed how tough it is for coaches to get in, even if they designed major changes in how the game was played
The contributor, like a seniors finalist, is also voted on, for enshrinement, separately from the other finalists. But a contributor is described by the Hall of Fame as an individual who has "made outstanding contributions to professional football in capacities other than playing or coaching."
So that excludes coaches, head coaches or longtime assistants, for their careers....
Candidates such as Ryan, because they only coached in the league, do not go into the seniors pool after their 25-year eligibility as a modern-era candidate runs out -- only players go into the seniors pool. Coaches remain among the modern-era candidates, meaning they remain with the growing list of former players. That severely limits their ability to be enshrined if they did not have notable tenures as head coaches.
http://www.espn.co.uk/blog/nflnation...e-hall-of-fame
Buddy Ryan, jerk that he is, deserves to be in.
Dick LeBeau is officially in the hall of fame as a cornerback for the Lions. His reputation as a DC made him more popular and I think made the committee more aware of his work as a corner
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