2nd Greatest NFL Team of Last 50 years?

[Mojouw]

Boston has a shitty (and richly deserved) reputation in general. And yeah, it kills me whenever they bring up Bill Russell and the '60s Celtics in particular while beating their chests about Boston's "sports tradition":



Read more: Playing Through the Pain

And another "gem": Why Boston's Sports Teams Can't Escape the City's Racism



And another one whose undivided attention will probably turn back to DA SAWX after Brady retires and the Patriots fall back to mediocrity. At its heart, Boston is still a baseball town, first and foremost...

I wonder what they would do if Brady was black? Or better yet, Welker or Edelman?!

[BengalGirl5150]

I would agree that the question is who is the second greatest team over the last 50 years, because without question this Patriot team is number 1. Same coach, same QB, 16 years, 14 playoffs, 7 Super Bowl appearances, 5 wins, only one season under 10 wins. Who's the troll? Anyone who doubts that the crown is on display at Gillette.

LOL omg are u serious? u guys play in the WORST div in pro sports for the past 20 years & then act like yr the best b/c u get cakewalked into a bye week homefield adv every year. Try playing in a REAL division and youd be lucky to win 10 games most years. lol, no playoffs for U!

I dont like the STEALERS but at least when they win they win by beating the BEST! Not like your whiny qb and his coach who never won anything before he started CHEATING! LOL!!

anyway I guess thanks to yr cupcake schedule AGAIN we'll see u in the playoffs where you lose yr 1st game half the time anyway. ooh, we beat up on the jets & dolphins all year again, look at us, we're so great. maybe u can comfort urself w/ that while yr smoking your cigar after LOSING to da AFC NORTH!

[Six Rings]

We are going on 50 years since the merger and if I am not mistaken the Steelers have been blessed to have more Lombardi's and wins than any other team.

So while they are without question the greatest team in the last 50 years, I am curious what team you consider for the 2nd best by whatever standard YOU choose.

Superbowl wins

Regular season wins

Great coaches, players and rivalries.

etc.

For me #2 is the Cowboys.

A very good and not so easy question to answer! The Steelers are the best team since the AFL-NFL merger winning the most super bowls.


2nd best could be Dallas, San Fransisco, or New England.


I'd lean toward New England being the second best, though cheating taints their legacy somewhat.

[steelreserve]

I guess going back to the original question ... you've basically got three eras of football in the last 50 years.

The "original" era, where men were men and everyone just went out and played the game and the best team won, but it was actually modern football, not semi-pro rugby.

Then the "evolved" era of the 80s and 90s where teams started looking at every angle that could give them an edge - contract stuff, new schemes, specialization (this is the first time you started seeing 300-pound linemen, etc.) ... I firmly believe this is where you would find the best teams of all-time; the top several teams of that era would probably beat the best from any other era hands-down.

Then the salary-cap era, where your skill at navigating the surrounding rules dictate much more about your team's capabilities than simply finding talented players. Definitely a lower skill-cap and higher skill-floor era. So you have:

Steelers:
- Dominant in original era
- Competitive in evolved era
- Great in salary-cap era

Cowboys:
- Great, maybe dominant in original era
- Dominant in evolved era
- Destroyed by salary cap

49ers:
- Sucked in original era
- Dominant in evolved era
- Destroyed by salary cap

Packers:
- Great in original era
- Sucked in evolved era
- Revived by salary cap

Raiders:
- Great in original era
- Competitive in evolved era
- Destroyed by salary cap

Giants:
- Mediocre in original era
- Great in evolved era, almost dominant
- Competitive, almost great in salary cap era

Patriots:
- Sucked in original era
- Sucked in evolved era
- Created by the salary cap

So I guess I'd have to revise my list to have the Cowboys #2, and then pick whoever you want from 3-6. Over 50 years, the 49ers definitely had less success than almost all of those teams, really just one lengthy run. But they clearly had a better run than the Patriots and were the superior football team head-to-head. So if we're including teams with one big run of glory and 30 years of sucking, New England would be #7 at best.

I guess you could throw a couple other teams up there in the mix, like Denver (I was surprised how few losing seasons they've had) or Washington, but they are not really who I think of when I think about "best in the past 50 years."

[Born2Steel]

Looking at the SB era as a whole, there's only a 5-6 year period in the 80s when anyone can say the Steelers were bad. Some down seasons but not bad teams. Every other team has had some very bad teams over extended periods.
Steelers are #1. The rest can fight and argue over who's 2nd. I don't really care.

[polamalubeast]

The Patriots was so bad in the late 1980s and early 1990s that their stadium was empty....

[steelreserve]

Looking at the SB era as a whole, there's only a 5-6 year period in the 80s when anyone can say the Steelers were bad. Some down seasons but not bad teams. Every other team has had some very bad teams over extended periods.
Steelers are #1. The rest can fight and argue over who's 2nd. I don't really care.

That's almost 100% correct, although looking through some overall team records, I was surprised to see that the Broncos have only had a handful of non-competitive seasons since the merger, and no back-to-back losing seasons since 1972.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/

Obviously they haven't had as much success at their peak as the top teams did - but as far as long-term stability it's a pretty remarkable record. In general though, you're exactly right; even the teams that have dominated the league at times have flat-out sucked for long stretches.

[polamalubeast]

That's almost 100% correct, although looking through some overall team records, I was surprised to see that the Broncos have only had a handful of non-competitive seasons since the merger, and no back-to-back losing seasons since 1972.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/

Obviously they haven't had as much success at their peak as the top teams did - but as far as long-term stability it's a pretty remarkable record. In general though, you're exactly right; even the teams that have dominated the league at times have flat-out sucked for long stretches.

The Broncos are very underrated....Since the Broncos have Pat Bowlen as owner, the Broncos have more super bowl appearance than losing season.

Bowlen would have deserved to be in the HOF before Jerry Jones.

[st33lersguy]

The Patriots was so bad in the late 1980s and early 1990s that their stadium was empty....

I actually heard in the early 90s they considered moving the team to St. Louis, there was so little interest in the team

[st33lersguy]

I guess going back to the original question ... you've basically got three eras of football in the last 50 years.

The "original" era, where men were men and everyone just went out and played the game and the best team won, but it was actually modern football, not semi-pro rugby.

Then the "evolved" era of the 80s and 90s where teams started looking at every angle that could give them an edge - contract stuff, new schemes, specialization (this is the first time you started seeing 300-pound linemen, etc.) ... I firmly believe this is where you would find the best teams of all-time; the top several teams of that era would probably beat the best from any other era hands-down.

Then the salary-cap era, where your skill at navigating the surrounding rules dictate much more about your team's capabilities than simply finding talented players. Definitely a lower skill-cap and higher skill-floor era. So you have:

Steelers:
- Dominant in original era
- Competitive in evolved era
- Great in salary-cap era

Cowboys:
- Great, maybe dominant in original era
- Dominant in evolved era
- Destroyed by salary cap

49ers:
- Sucked in original era
- Dominant in evolved era
- Destroyed by salary cap

Packers:
- Great in original era
- Sucked in evolved era
- Revived by salary cap

Raiders:
- Great in original era
- Competitive in evolved era
- Destroyed by salary cap

Giants:
- Mediocre in original era
- Great in evolved era, almost dominant
- Competitive, almost great in salary cap era

Patriots:
- Sucked in original era
- Sucked in evolved era
- Created by the salary cap

So I guess I'd have to revise my list to have the Cowboys #2, and then pick whoever you want from 3-6. Over 50 years, the 49ers definitely had less success than almost all of those teams, really just one lengthy run. But they clearly had a better run than the Patriots and were the superior football team head-to-head. So if we're including teams with one big run of glory and 30 years of sucking, New England would be #7 at best.

I guess you could throw a couple other teams up there in the mix, like Denver (I was surprised how few losing seasons they've had) or Washington, but they are not really who I think of when I think about "best in the past 50 years."

I would place Oakland behind New England actually. The Raiders were dominant from 67-85, but they haven't had a lot of success since. Since 1986, they have only been to the postseason 7 times. They have made only 1 Super Bowl appearance and lost, and they haven't even won a road playoff game since 1980.

I also think San Fran is getting a bad rap. They had some success outside of the 80s. The 90s they were as good as any team to win 1 Super Bowl in a decade, averaging 12 wins from 90-98, 5 NFC Championship appearances and 1 Super Bowl win, that was a great team. Outside of those decades, they're running thin on success, but 70-72 with John Brodie they won the NFC West 3 straight years losing the NFC Championship game to the great Dallas teams of the 70s in 70 and 71. Then there was that recent run in the early part of this decade with 3 straight NFC Championship appearances and a Super Bowl appearance. It's a shame that Jim Harbaugh and the moronic Trent Baalke were assholes that couldn't get along

[BostonBlackie]

The Patriots’ Place in History

Is the New England dynasty of Bill Belichick and Tom Brady the best in football history? Evaluating how these Patriots stack up against other teams in the running for the title of greatest ever


It will take a while, and some reflection, to put these New England Patriots into historical perspective. The NFL has been around for 97 years, through several eras and leagues, and so there’s no definitive statement to make about where the Patriots rank with the greatest teams of all time—except to say that they’re absolutely in the discussion.

The MMQB looked at the best teams in league history over at least a 12-year period, and here were the interesting findings about where the Patriots of 2001 to 2016 rank with them:
• New England’s regular-season winning percentage of .766 over these 16 seasons is the best of any team in league history in a span of at least 12 years.
• New England has won 14 division titles in those 16 seasons, the highest rate of division/conference titles won by a franchise over that span.
• Including playoff games, no team over a long term has averaged as many wins as New England, 13.8, in a season. That, of course, is helped by the fact that playoffs have expanded. But it’s still an impressive number. The Patriots’ 13.8 wins is a full win better, on average, than San Francisco’s 12.7 wins from 1981 to 1998.
• What makes the long-term greatness of the Patriots unique in league history is that the same coach, Bill Belichick, and quarterback, Tom Brady, have led the team in every season of their 16-year run … and there’s no sign either is going to step away soon. No other coach-quarterback pair has been together for such a length of great play, and that longevity is particularly impressive considering the rate of coaching changes today.

Every year we think the Patriots must be close to the end. Belichick turns 65 in April; he’s said nothing about his future plans, but no one thinks his departure from football
will come soon. Watch him on the sideline. Do you ever see stress? You don’t. Maybe there is inside, but the game doesn’t seem to eat him up the way it has others. Bill Walsh retired at 57 after having been talked out of quitting a couple of times in the years before that, and he never returned to the sidelines. Belichick has coached in the NFL for 42 seasons. It’s just hard to see him, at least soon, do anything else.

Tom Brady turns 40 in August, which means his last football game in his 30s was quite possibly the best in his life—the 34-28 overtime win in Super Bowl LI against Atlanta, rebounding from a 25-point second-half deficit. He has always said (and repeated recently) that he intends to play football into his 40s. Why quit? At 39, Brady had his second-highest passer rating ever, and his touchdown-to-interception differential this season, 35-to-5, was better than Joe Montana had at any age.

That’s the amazing part of this great run. Never do you hear either of these cornerstones talk about being weary of the game, or longing to do something else. Which means the challenge by the Patriots to the legacies of the other great long-term teams of all time will continue.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/02/09/best-nfl-dynasty-ever-new-england-patriots-cleveland-browns-san-francisco-49ers

[Hawkman]

The Patriots’ Place in History

Is the New England dynasty of Bill Belichick and Tom Brady the best in football history? Evaluating how these Patriots stack up against other teams in the running for the title of greatest ever


It will take a while, and some reflection, to put these New England Patriots into historical perspective. The NFL has been around for 97 years, through several eras and leagues, and so there’s no definitive statement to make about where the Patriots rank with the greatest teams of all time—except to say that they’re absolutely in the discussion.

The MMQB looked at the best teams in league history over at least a 12-year period, and here were the interesting findings about where the Patriots of 2001 to 2016 rank with them:
• New England’s regular-season winning percentage of .766 over these 16 seasons is the best of any team in league history in a span of at least 12 years.
• New England has won 14 division titles in those 16 seasons, the highest rate of division/conference titles won by a franchise over that span.
• Including playoff games, no team over a long term has averaged as many wins as New England, 13.8, in a season. That, of course, is helped by the fact that playoffs have expanded. But it’s still an impressive number. The Patriots’ 13.8 wins is a full win better, on average, than San Francisco’s 12.7 wins from 1981 to 1998.
• What makes the long-term greatness of the Patriots unique in league history is that the same coach, Bill Belichick, and quarterback, Tom Brady, have led the team in every season of their 16-year run … and there’s no sign either is going to step away soon. No other coach-quarterback pair has been together for such a length of great play, and that longevity is particularly impressive considering the rate of coaching changes today.

Every year we think the Patriots must be close to the end. Belichick turns 65 in April; he’s said nothing about his future plans, but no one thinks his departure from football
will come soon. Watch him on the sideline. Do you ever see stress? You don’t. Maybe there is inside, but the game doesn’t seem to eat him up the way it has others. Bill Walsh retired at 57 after having been talked out of quitting a couple of times in the years before that, and he never returned to the sidelines. Belichick has coached in the NFL for 42 seasons. It’s just hard to see him, at least soon, do anything else.

Tom Brady turns 40 in August, which means his last football game in his 30s was quite possibly the best in his life—the 34-28 overtime win in Super Bowl LI against Atlanta, rebounding from a 25-point second-half deficit. He has always said (and repeated recently) that he intends to play football into his 40s. Why quit? At 39, Brady had his second-highest passer rating ever, and his touchdown-to-interception differential this season, 35-to-5, was better than Joe Montana had at any age.

That’s the amazing part of this great run. Never do you hear either of these cornerstones talk about being weary of the game, or longing to do something else. Which means the challenge by the Patriots to the legacies of the other great long-term teams of all time will continue.

http://mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/02/09/best-nfl-dynasty-ever-new-england-patriots-cleveland-browns-san-francisco-49ers

Repeat to me the name of this thread!!! I swore I wasn't going to get dragged into this person's idiocy, but he got smoked by BengalGirl and had to stick with AFC north comrades.

[BostonBlackie]

Team	Period	Win Pct.
New England	2001-16	.766
Chicago	1932-50	.751
San Francisco	1981-98	.747
Cleveland	1946-69	.746
Green Bay	1929-44	.742
Oakland	1967-85	.733
Dallas	1966-85	.731
Pittsburgh	1972-84	.690
Green Bay	1960-72	.664

[BostonBlackie]

BTW, when talking the best team in the history of the NFL, Pittsburgh isn't even in the discussion.

[BostonBlackie]

The Patriots Are The NFL’s Greatest Dynasty

	BEST DYNASTY		SECOND-BEST		THIRD-BEST
# OF YEARS	TEAM	AVG. ELO	TEAM	AVG. ELO	TEAM	AVG. ELO
1	Patriots2007	1824	Patriots2004	1816	Bears1985	1796
2	Cowboys1992-93	1786	Patriots2003-04	1782	Dolphins1972-73	1779
3	Cowboys1992-94	1759	Dolphins1972-74	1751	Steelers1974-76	1743
4	Cowboys1992-95	1751	Patriots2004-07	1747	49ers1989-92	1734
5	Patriots2003-07	1747	Steelers1975-79	1727	49ers1988-92	1725
6	Patriots2003-08	1732	49ers1989-94	1727	Steelers1974-79	1726
7	49ers1988-94	1722	Patriots2003-09	1713	Patriots2010-16	1713
8	49ers1987-94	1718	Patriots2003-10	1713	Steelers1972-79	1700
9	Patriots2003-11	1715	49ers1987-95	1715	Steelers1972-80	1689
10	Patriots2003-12	1714	49ers1987-96	1709	Steelers1972-81	1677
11	49ers1984-94	1712	Patriots2003-13	1711	Cowboys1971-81	1671
12	Patriots2003-14	1714	49ers1984-95	1710	Cowboys1970-81	1670
13	Patriots2004-16	1710	49ers1984-96	1706	Cowboys1970-82	1667
14	Patriots2003-16	1713	49ers1984-97	1700	Cowboys1970-83	1663
15	Patriots2002-16	1702	49ers1984-98	1697	Cowboys1970-84	1655
16	Patriots2001-16	1700	49ers1983-98	1692	Cowboys1970-85	1647
17	49ers1981-97	1685	Patriots2000-16	1684	Cowboys1970-86	1637
18	49ers1981-98	1683	Patriots1999-2016	1673	Cowboys1970-87	1628
19	49ers1980-98	1666	Patriots1998-2016	1665	Packers1994-2012	1617
20	Patriots1997-2016	1662	49ers1981-2000	1654	Packers1995-2014	1614
21	Patriots1996-2016	1660	49ers1981-2001	1651	Packers1995-2015	1614
22	Patriots1995-2016	1650	49ers1981-2002	1645	Packers1995-2016	1615
23	Patriots1994-2016	1646	49ers1981-2003	1639	Packers1994-2016	1614
24	Patriots1993-2016	1635	49ers1980-2003	1628	Packers1993-2016	1611
25	Patriots1992-2016	1621	49ers1980-2004	1615	Cowboys1971-95	1611

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...atest-dynasty/

[teegre]

BTW, when talking the best team in the history of the NFL, Pittsburgh isn't even in the discussion.

That would be either the NYGiants or Packers.

But, that's a different discussion.

[GBMelBlount]

This is a helluva a top 5 teams in the last 50 years.

I am wondering if we have jumped into number 1 in the last year?

We are only 3 points behind the Cowboys.

I am sure if you use different criteria (besides ignoring 35 of the last 50 years) that you might have slightly different results.

Here is the CBS Sports 2015 ranking of the top nfl teams of the superbowl era.

1. Dallas Cowboys (164 points)

2. Pittsburgh Steelers (161 points)

3. San Francisco 49ers (129 points)

4. Oakland Raiders (126 points)

5. Green Bay Packers (124 points)

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/th...uper-bowl-era/

[teegre]

The Patriots Are The NFL’s Greatest Dynasty

Yes, I'd agree/I've also mentioned: the past 16 years are phenomenal...

...but, again, that's a different discussion.

[teegre]

Too much to reply to. Some thoughts...

1) Somehow this thread got tangented into who had the better dynasty (70s Steelers, 80s Niners, current Tapes). That's a whole different discussion.

2. I think some of us are slighting the accomplishments of the Taperiots over the past 16 years. It doesn't mean they're the "best" for the past 50 years, but what they've done over the past two decades shouldn't be ignored.

3) Some reeeally good points were made. It had me re-look at a lot of factors... and simply, we need to establish the criteria for "best ever (and/or "second best ever").
--SuperBowl victories
--SuperBowl appearances
--playoff wins
--playoff games played
--playoff winning percentage
--division titles
--playoff berths
--winning seasons
--overall winning percentage

SUPERBOWL VICTORIES:
6 Steelers
5 Cowboys, Niners, Taperiots

SUPERBOWL APPEARANCES:
9 Taperiots
8 Steelers, Cowboys, Broncos

PLAYOFF WINS:
33 Steelers, Cowboys
30 Niners
25 Raidahs
24 Taperiots
23 Packers

PLAYOFF GAMES PLAYED:
58 Cowboys
53 Steelers
49 Niners

PLAYOFF WINNING PERCENTAGE :
.652 Ravens
.645 NYGiants
.612 Niners
.609 Taperiots
.607 Steelers

I got tired of looking up stats (for division titles, playoff berths, winning seasons, overall winning percentage)...

[BostonBlackie]

Too much to reply to. Some thoughts...

1) Somehow this thread got tangented into who had the better dynasty (70s Steelers, 80s Niners, current Tapes). That's a whole different discussion.

2. I think some of us are slighting the accomplishments of the Taperiots over the past 16 years. It doesn't mean they're the "best" for the past 50 years, but what they've done over the past two decades shouldn't be ignored.

3) Some reeeally good points were made. It had me re-look at a lot of factors... and simply, we need to establish the criteria for "best ever (and/or "second best ever").
--SuperBowl victories
--SuperBowl appearances
--playoff wins
--playoff games played
--playoff winning percentage
--division titles
--playoff berths
--winning seasons
--overall winning percentage

SUPERBOWL VICTORIES:
6 Steelers
5 Cowboys, Niners, Taperiots

SUPERBOWL APPEARANCES:
9 Taperiots
8 Steelers, Cowboys, Broncos

PLAYOFF WINS:
33 Steelers, Cowboys
30 Niners
25 Raidahs
24 Taperiots
23 Packers

PLAYOFF GAMES PLAYED:
58 Cowboys
53 Steelers
49 Niners

PLAYOFF WINNING PERCENTAGE :
.652 Ravens
.645 NYGiants
.612 Niners
.609 Taperiots
.607 Steelers

I got tired of looking up stats (for division titles, playoff berths, winning seasons, overall winning percentage)...

good post

- - - Updated - - -

That would be either the NYGiants or Packers.

But, that's a different discussion.

Yes, probably is. I'm just making sure the Patriots get a fair shake here.

[pczach]

BTW, when talking the best team in the history of the NFL, Pittsburgh isn't even in the discussion.

There is nothing greater to behold than a fan of the Patriots acting like the NFL has only existed for 16 years.


Let's recap for the troll:

The most racist sports city in the USA by a mile....Check

A 16 year run that has been tainted by cheating that has been proven, and is THE most consistent thing about the team.....Check

Playing in an historically bad division with the gold standard of ineptitude to boost their winning percentage and "greatness"......Check

A fan base that has no historical perspective and is filled with more bandwagon jumpers than all other franchises combined over the last 16 years.....Check

Most of these bandwagon jumpers and great NFL minds need to have it explained to them who Steve Grogan was..........Check (You can start Googling now)

Without a doubt the biggest douchebag fans in sports..........Check

The franchise most likely to lose half of their fans once they stop winning and never be heard from again.........Check


Go away.

What a fucking loser.

[fansince'76]

There is nothing greater to behold than a fan of the Patriots acting like the NFL has only existed for 16 years.


Let's recap for the troll:

The most racist sports city in the USA by a mile....Check

A 16 year run that has been tainted by cheating that has been proven, and is THE most consistent thing about the team.....Check

Playing in an historically bad division with the gold standard of ineptitude to boost their winning percentage and "greatness"......Check

A fan base that has no historical perspective and is filled with more bandwagon jumpers than all other franchises combined over the last 16 years.....Check

Most of these bandwagon jumpers and great NFL minds need to have it explained to them who Steve Grogan was..........Check (You can start Googling now)

Without a doubt the biggest douchebag fans in sports..........Check

The franchise most likely to lose half of their fans once they stop winning and never be heard from again.........Check


Go away.

What a fucking loser.

[Hawkman]

[st33lersguy]

This moron and all the other Brady/Bellicheat groupies are pounding their collective fists now about how great this franchise is, but everyone knows that once Bellichick and Brady retire and this team falls back into mediocrity, if Dallas becomes and remains a perennial Super Bowl contender by then, they'll hop on/return to (depending on age) the Cowboys bandwagon. If not, they will just claim whatever team happens to be the current defending Super Bowl champions and that stadium will be empty just like it was before Brady and Bellicheat arrived

[tube517]

There is nothing greater to behold than a fan of the Patriots acting like the NFL has only existed for 16 years.


Let's recap for the troll:

The most racist sports city in the USA by a mile....Check

A 16 year run that has been tainted by cheating that has been proven, and is THE most consistent thing about the team.....Check

Playing in an historically bad division with the gold standard of ineptitude to boost their winning percentage and "greatness"......Check

A fan base that has no historical perspective and is filled with more bandwagon jumpers than all other franchises combined over the last 16 years.....Check

Most of these bandwagon jumpers and great NFL minds need to have it explained to them who Steve Grogan was..........Check (You can start Googling now)

Without a doubt the biggest douchebag fans in sports..........Check

The franchise most likely to lose half of their fans once they stop winning and never be heard from again.........Check


Go away.

What a fucking loser.

[Mojouw]

To our resident Pats fan, are you being willfully ignorant? Several of the dynasties you posted occur outside of the period up for debate (1966-2016 or there about) and it isn't a matter of having the best run for a portion of that period but over the entire period.

16 years of awesome doesn't totally counteract 34 years of truly awful. The Pats spent much of their franchise history being Browns and Jags level of inept. Until this recent run we are talking about Grogan and Andre Tippett being the best the Pats had to offer.

The last decade and a half puts the Pats in the conversation. But ultimately I think they lose out to one or more of the Cowboys, Steelers, Raiders, Packers, Giants, or Broncos.

If the Pats have a strong run of post Brady success, they may overtake everyone else.

[steelreserve]

Again, guys, don't feed the troll. It's obvious to anyone where the Patriots' real place is, but like their typical dickhead fan, he just wants to stir up shit. More proof that the team might stop losing, but you can't take the loser out of the fan base. This is nothing special to see.

[BostonBlackie]

Until this recent run we are talking about Grogan and Andre Tippett being the best the Pats had to offer.

Not really. More like John Hannah, and Mike Haynes.



- - - Updated - - -

[Mojouw]

Not really. More like John Hannah, and Mike Haynes.

Prior to 1994, the Pats had about 12 winning seasons in 34 years. That is not good. So the point still holds.

[Born2Steel]

Wasn't Mike Haynes a Raider?