Let Villaneuva Go?

[teegre]

We shouldn't let him go, but we also don't have any reason to bid against ourselves. If it's looking like it'll come down to a crappy contract battle where it's a lose-lose for us ... Well, we've got 2-3 years to prepare for that, and while finding offensive linemen is not foolproof, it's not like finding quarterbacks either.

As far as Munchak is concerned, sure, some amount of talent has to be there, but plain as day, we had a well below-average line before, and once he came along, we have one of the best lines in the league, and it's the same guys. Seems like we've also gotten a lot better at identifying (and just as importantly, developing) decent prospects with what used to be throwaway picks or afterthought FA signings. So there's no doubt in my mind he's made it about 500% more likely that if the Villanueva situation goes sideways, we'll make something work in the end.

2012: Pre-season, DeCastro lost for the season with knee injury

2013: Game one, Pouncey lost for the season with knee injury

2014: All of those high-round draft picks are ALL available/injury-free... and, yes, Munchak arrives.

Munchak is EXCEPTIONAL, but ignoring the fact that talent is important is flirting with disaster. Heck, Munchak couldn't make a backup, let alone a starter, out of Mike Adams. Yet, at season's end, AV was a top 5 LT.

YES, Munchak was probably responsible for 90% of AV's success, but that last 10% in indeed based on talent... which is the difference between Beachum (a starter with flaws) and AV (a starter who is one of the best in the league).

[polamalubeast]

It could be ugly and one of the two (steelers or Villaneuva) could be a big loser in this situation.

If Hawkins plays well if Villaneuva holdout, Villaneuva is going to be big loser, but if Hawkins is horrible, it's going to be the steelers who will be the big losers.

I predict that one of the two situations will happen if Villaneuva holdout.

[Born2Steel]

It could be ugly and one of the two (steelers or Villaneuva) could be a big loser in this situation.

If Hawkins plays well if Villaneuva holdout, Villaneuva is going to be big loser, but if Hawkins is horrible, it's going to be the steelers who will be the big losers.

I predict that one of the two situations will happen if Villaneuva holdout.

I don't see the leverage for AV to hold out at his age. The Steelers have him for 2 more years, right? Then there's RFA, and tag. Plus the Steelers do have Hawkins ready to play. I think AV gets a deal comparable to Gilbert. Maybe not top 5 LT contract, but acceptable.

[Shoes]

If you are in charge of a team with SB aspirations, how can you have less than 3 quality offensive tackles? Even if the Steelers believe that Hawkins is an eventual amazing starter at LT - you can't just let AV walk. Because who is your 3rd tackle? Hubbard - yeah that doesn't fill me with confidence.

AV needs to be resigned for that reason alone. The second reason, is that his situation is alot like the AB contract deal. And much like L Bell's as well. All three players have clearly out-performed their existing contracts. You better believe that the entire roster is watching what the team does for their second contract.

I am not saying that the team has to attempt to outbid themselves and back-up an armored car full of money, but they can't try and get AV resigned for bargain basement prices either.

Also, letting AV walk would be the dumbest decision from this team in quite some time.

Best post of the day. Close the thread!

[Count Steeler]

2012: Pre-season, DeCastro lost for the season with knee injury

2013: Game one, Pouncey lost for the season with knee injury

2014: All of those high-round draft picks are ALL available/injury-free... and, yes, Munchak arrives.

Munchak is EXCEPTIONAL, but ignoring the fact that talent is important is flirting with disaster. Heck, Munchak couldn't make a backup, let alone a starter, out of Mike Adams. Yet, at season's end, AV was a top 5 LT.

YES, Munchak was probably responsible for 90% of AV's success, but that last 10% in indeed based on talent... which is the difference between Beachum (a starter with flaws) and AV (a starter who is one of the best in the league).

Mike Adams lacked 1 major component, a heart. He was the Tin Man of the O line. He had talent, he was projected as a first rounder until he screwed up. Beachum may not have had the talent, (7th rounder) but he had heart. AV, well, no one can ever accuse him of lacking heart.

[teegre]

Mike Adams lacked 1 major component, a heart. He was the Tin Man of the O line. He had talent, he was projected as a first rounder until he screwed up. Beachum may not have had the talent, (7th rounder) but he had heart. AV, well, no one can ever accuse him of lacking heart.

Excellent point.

Let me expand on it... and summarize why I want AV to get an extension:


Adams: big talent, no heart

Beachum: no talent, big heart

AV: big talent, big heart

[Born2Steel]

Question....what if Hawkins actually beats AV out for the starting role? That is one possible scenario. AV doesn't get market value for a starting LT just yet. Keep him? Of course. He's not going to another team though. The Steelers have ALL the negotiating leverage in this. Give him enough to get him on the field, that's it.

[FrancoLambert]

Question....what if Hawkins actually beats AV out for the starting role? That is one possible scenario. AV doesn't get market value for a starting LT just yet. Keep him? Of course. He's not going to another team though. The Steelers have ALL the negotiating leverage in this. Give him enough to get him on the field, that's it.

All things are possible but I would say it's highly unlikely. If Hawkins had the look of a plug-in OT starter he would have gone much earlier in the draft.

[polamalubeast]

All things are possible but I would say it's highly unlikely. If Hawkins had the look of a plug-in OT starter he would have gone much earlier in the draft.

Maybe but this is not rare to see a player become a good player even if he is drafted in the 4th round.

We must wait and see...

[steelreserve]

Mike Adams was also injured for his last two seasons with what turned out to be a career-ending back problem. I don't think we'll ever know if he could've been any good.

If you want an indicator of how much of the OL's success is talent versus coaching, look at another guy: Marcus Gilbert. There was a classic example of a player with talent who just couldn't figure it out, and was struggling and probably on his way to getting demoted and then replaced. He gets a little coaching and suddenly, what do you know, he's superb.

Or: Oh no, Pouncey and DeCastro were hurt the couple of years before Munchak arrived, that must have been the reason for our problems, right? Well, Pouncey was hurt for the whole season two years ago WITH Munchak, and the OL barely missed a beat. Same guys.

No, you're not going to grab any old guy off the garbage truck and turn him into a star LT, but with Munchak, find a guy with average or above-pound talent and you get an adequate player instead of a dumpster fire. The bar is way, way lower than it used to be without him. It's not going to take $10M a year or a top-10 draft pick to be decent at that position.

Anyway, there's not even any reason to "Let Villanueva walk." We have him for the next two years for very little money guaranteed, three if we want him. At that point, Ben's 37 or 38 and probably retiring. I don't even understand the question here.

[polamalubeast]

Mike Adams was also injured for his last two seasons with what turned out to be a career-ending back problem. I don't think we'll ever know if he could've been any good.

If you want an indicator of how much of the OL's success is talent versus coaching, look at another guy: Marcus Gilbert. There was a classic example of a player with talent who just couldn't figure it out, and was struggling and probably on his way to getting demoted and then replaced. He gets a little coaching and suddenly, what do you know, he's superb.

Or: Oh no, Pouncey and DeCastro were hurt the couple of years before Munchak arrived, that must have been the reason for our problems, right? Well, Pouncey was hurt for the whole season two years ago WITH Munchak, and the OL barely missed a beat. Same guys.

No, you're not going to grab any old guy off the garbage truck and turn him into a star LT, but with Munchak, find a guy with average or above-pound talent and you get an adequate player instead of a dumpster fire. The bar is way, way lower than it used to be without him. It's not going to take $10M a year or a top-10 draft pick to be decent at that position.

Anyway, there's not even any reason to "Let Villanueva walk." We have him for the next two years for very little money guaranteed, three if we want him. At that point, Ben's 37 or 38 and probably retiring. I don't even understand the question here.

This is the difference between an great coach and an awful coach!

[teegre]

If you want an indicator of how much of the OL's success is talent versus coaching, look at another guy: Marcus Gilbert. There was a classic example of a player with talent who just couldn't figure it out, and was struggling and probably on his way to getting demoted and then replaced. He gets a little coaching and suddenly, what do you know, he's superb.

But... by your logic, the Steelers shouldn't have re-signed Gilbert. They should have let him walk, and replaced him with any above-average OT.

Whereas, I see Gilbert as the same as AV (although their contract situations are different): Munchak was able to tap into that talent and bring it to the forefront.

SUMMATION:
As I've iterated, Munchak can not create talent, but he's phenomenal at developing it. If you want to put a number on it, you can give Munchak 90% of the credit for the O-line'ssuccess, but that last 10% is indeed the difference between Beachum (capable LT) and AV (statistically top 5 LT).

[steelreserve]

But... by your logic, the Steelers shouldn't have re-signed Gilbert. They should have let him walk, and replaced him with any above-average OT.

Whereas, I see Gilbert as the same as AV (although their contract situations are different): Munchak was able to tap into that talent and bring it to the forefront.

SUMMATION:
As I've iterated, Munchak can not create talent, but he's phenomenal at developing it. If you want to put a number on it, you can give Munchak 90% of the credit for the O-line'ssuccess, but that last 10% is indeed the difference between Beachum (capable LT) and AV (statistically top 5 LT).

What? We got a reasonable deal for Gilbert. If we were talking about $10M a year, then yeah, we should've let him walk and replaced him, and then I'd be fairly confident in our ability to do so. Munchak takes OK players and makes them good, and above-average players and makes them very good. But thankfully it didn't come to that or anywhere near it.

The Villanueva situation is very close to that, except that we don't even HAVE to worry about the contract getting out of hand. And there's more lead time to prepare if so, and thereby have a chance to get a "good" LT if we deem it necessary, instead of just any old LT.

I really don't understand what people are worried about. Either we sign him or we don't, and if we don't there's no reason to freak out. Hopefully everyone figures out the money part for something reasonable and it's a non-issue anyway.

[polamalubeast]

[GBMelBlount]

This tweet says "My brain plays a very small part in my thinking and I have no idea what is involved in running a team in a league with salary caps."

[steelreserve]

Option A: "Keep the player and don't spend $10 million"

Option B: "Keep the player and spend $10 million for the hell of it."

How often is option B going to win?

[GBMelBlount]

Option A: "Keep the player and don't spend $10 million"

Option B: "Keep the player and spend $10 million for the hell of it."

How often is option B going to win?

What about offering 5 or 6 per year?

[steelreserve]

What about offering 5 or 6 per year?

I think that's a great idea, benefits everyone, and probably what's going to eventually happen.

Both sides just need to get to the point where they're realistic about it - Villanueva's agent that he's simply not in a position where a $50 million contract is a possibility; and the team that if this guy is part of our long-term plans, you need a long-term deal. I've said before something like 5 years, $30-35M is a good price for us, and basically is locking the max that he could expect to make on the open market if everything went his way between now and then.

[AtlantaDan]

Good ESPN.com article on AV and his contract situation

"I come from an organization like the military, which only cares about the goodness and the development and the opportunities of every member. Then you come to the NFL and you have to fall into these rules, to these sort of agreements between owners and players that sometimes might seem or might appear to be unfair to certain players....

The NFL business model has caused Villanueva to feel insecure and defensive about the way he supports his family, he says. The military offers the backdrop of comfort. Want to work more or less hours? The system accommodates that, he said.

http://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh-...-civilian-life

AV is a grounded guy but those I know in the Reserves who were deployed to Iran and Afghanistan along with what I have read about enlisted soldiers receiving multiple deployments might not be on board with the military being heavily into flextime. And no organization cares only about the goodness and development of its members.

[GBMelBlount]

Jerald Hawkins Does Little To Change Villanueva’s Situation

Saying Hawkins affects Villanueva’s situation is like saying James Conner is changing the dynamic for Le’Veon Bell’s long term deal. It’s just silly. There’s little question the team is high on Hawkins. He had an excellent camp as a rookie before hurting his shoulder but the sample size is so small, it’s asinine to use it as justification or to have enough confidence.

Banking on Hawkins is like guessing the person in Clue once you eliminate all the people with brown eyes. Dumb.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/06...vas-situation/

(He goes on to say he thinks 5 mil / year is the right price....which doesn't sound bad to me.)

[polamalubeast]

Jerald Hawkins Does Little To Change Villanueva’s Situation

Saying Hawkins affects Villanueva’s situation is like saying James Conner is changing the dynamic for Le’Veon Bell’s long term deal. It’s just silly. There’s little question the team is high on Hawkins. He had an excellent camp as a rookie before hurting his shoulder but the sample size is so small, it’s asinine to use it as justification or to have enough confidence.

Banking on Hawkins is like guessing the person in Clue once you eliminate all the people with brown eyes. Dumb.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/06...vas-situation/

(He goes on to say he thinks 5 mil / year is the right price....which doesn't sound bad to me.)

I don't think it's enough.

The average that an LT has per year is 7.5 millions.

Villaneuva is better than average.

[Born2Steel]

I don't get the idea of overpaying. He does not get a top 5 LT because it doesn't make good financial sense moving forward. Give AV a contract comparable to Gilbert and we keep moving on. Front loaded for signing but tapers off so not as big a cap hit in 3-4 years. That keeps him long term and leaves money for resigning the core parts that make this a championship team. I refuse to cry over a player ONLY making 5M a year vs 9M a year. I'm just not going to do that. I get the whole 'market value' thing. But the point is, it does not apply in this case because of his situation with the team. AV will be very happy to be making 5M per season as the starting LT for the world champs.