Gil Brandt ranks the Steelers as the second most talented team in the NFL

[polamalubeast]

2) Pittsburgh Steelers


A strong argument can be made that quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, running back Le'Veon Bell and receiver Antonio Brown are the NFL's best set of triplets. The offensive line -- including left tackle Alejandro Villanueva and right guard David DeCastro -- is top-notch, while the receiver corps is very deep. JuJu Smith-Schuster will make a good addition at receiver, and fellow rookie James Conner is an ideal fit at running back in terms of his ability to catch and run. The defensive line has three good, young players in Javon Hargrave, Cameron Heyward and Stephon Tuitt, and linebacker Ryan Shazier is the real deal. The biggest weakness is at outside linebacker, where first-round pick T.J. Watt needs to contribute immediately. The secondary will continue to improve as cornerback Artie Burns and safety Sean Davis develop. The bottom line: This team can beat you in a lot of different ways.


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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...112-sf81591112

[Six Rings]

I wish I could say I valued what Brandt has to say. He's been anti Pittsburgh for years, now a bandwagon jumper?

[polamalubeast]

I wish I could say I valued what Brandt has to say. He's been anti Pittsburgh for years, now a bandwagon jumper?

Maybe but he's right that the steelers are very talented.

[SteelerFanInStl]

All of the crying from the Seahawks fans is hysterical!

[GBMelBlount]

Tomlin has done a very good job of drafting and developing talent in recent years.

The offense is absolutely loaded (very glad we drafted juJu),

and the defense will also be better this year after finishing top 10 in points.

Tomlin has done everything possible, personnel-wise, to build a team around Ben to allow him to win one more Lombardi before he retires.

Now we just need the injury gods to smile upon us and properly prepare for each game.

[fansince'76]

I wish I could say I valued what Brandt has to say. He's been anti Pittsburgh for years, now a bandwagon jumper?

Not to mention he's gotta be pushing 100 years old at this point.

All of the crying from the Seahawks fans is hysterical!

Rainy City Bitch Pigeons fans are pathetic...

[polamalubeast]

Interesting to see that the Ravens are not in the top 10 and that the steelers are 2nd but despite that, the Ravens almost won the division in 2016.I was not crazy when I said John Harbaugh was a better coach than Tomlin almost 2 months ago.


http://www.steelersuniverse.com/foru...or-Mike-Tomlin

[Mojouw]

Interesting to see that the Ravens are not in the top 10 and that the steelers are 2nd but despite that, the Ravens almost won the division in 2016.I was not crazy when I said John Harbaugh was a better coach than Tomlin almost 2 months ago.


http://www.steelersuniverse.com/foru...or-Mike-Tomlin

So because some dude went 8-8 and kinda sorta had a shot at the division, before the Tomlin led Steelers won the game and the division - he's a better coach?

That logic is more contorted than a pretzel. If we apply the same parameters to Tomlin, he has to get credit for the 2009, 2012, and 2013 seasons where he had his team in contention for the division crown and/or playoffs until late in the season as well.

The Ravens have done a great job of restocking the defense. On offense, they have surrounded Flacco with veterans and then a bunch of crap. The o-line is leaky and the draft classes have been struggling. As a response, Harbaugh has started to change coordinators like I change socks.

Harbaugh has offered zero innovations on offense or defense to attempt to halt the Ravens slide to the middle. Look at his record - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/

Why does no one piss and moan that he only won his SB with Brian Billick's team and now the team is just terrible and losses tons of games it should win and the Steelers are in their heads?

I mean everyone is a better coach than Tomlin if you keep putting your thumb on the scale. What has Harbaugh done that represents an actual coaching achievement that Tomlin has not equaled or exceeded?

[polamalubeast]

So because some dude went 8-8 and kinda sorta had a shot at the division, before the Tomlin led Steelers won the game and the division - he's a better coach?

That logic is more contorted than a pretzel. If we apply the same parameters to Tomlin, he has to get credit for the 2009, 2012, and 2013 seasons where he had his team in contention for the division crown and/or playoffs until late in the season as well.

The Ravens have done a great job of restocking the defense. On offense, they have surrounded Flacco with veterans and then a bunch of crap. The o-line is leaky and the draft classes have been struggling. As a response, Harbaugh has started to change coordinators like I change socks.

Harbaugh has offered zero innovations on offense or defense to attempt to halt the Ravens slide to the middle. Look at his record - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/

Why does no one piss and moan that he only won his SB with Brian Billick's team and now the team is just terrible and losses tons of games it should win and the Steelers are in their heads?

I mean everyone is a better coach than Tomlin if you keep putting your thumb on the scale. What has Harbaugh done that represents an actual coaching achievement that Tomlin has not equaled or exceeded?

The Ravens had 0 playoff win between 2002 to 2007 before Harbaugh is the HC in Baltimore.Their offense during this time was painful to watch.

Their offense is far from elite, but at least the ravens are respectable for most of the time, which has helped the ravens to win 10 playoffs games since 2008, even if the Ravens have had very little elite talent at their offense.Their offense was the reason why they won the super bowl in 2012 as well.


The problem in recent years for the Ravens is the lack of elite talent...Who are the playmaker for the Ravens in offense and defense?...The Steelers have a lot of playmaker in recent years, especially on offense.

The steelers were better in the last few years than the Ravens, but I don't think the difference is the HC.

[Mojouw]

The Ravens had 0 playoff win between 2002 to 2007 before Harbaugh is the HC in Baltimore.Their offense during this time was painful to watch.

Their offense is far from elite, but at least the ravens are respectable for most of the time, which has helped the ravens to win 10 playoffs games since 2008, even if the Ravens have had very little elite talent at their offense.Their offense was the reason why they won the super bowl in 2012 as well.


The problem in recent years for the Ravens is the lack of elite talent...Who are the playmaker for the Ravens in offense and defense?...The Steelers have a lot of playmaker in recent years, especially on offense.

The steelers were better in the last few years than the Ravens, but I don't think the difference is the HC.

Again, I am aware of the roster situation for both teams. I am also aware that Tomlin has won 8 more games than Harbaugh and never had a losing season.

If the Ravens lack elite talent and that tarnishes Tomlin because he has elite talent - then doesn't Harbaugh get some blame for lack of playmakers and Tomlin some credit for revamping an entire roster?

All the Harbaugh fanboys can never identify what it is that he actually does. His teams consistently fold in big games. All he is is a Ryan brother in a slicker package. His teams get by on swagger and physicality and tend to be at a loss when another team matches that intensity. Under his guidance the Ravens have changed little in either their offensive or defensive philosophies. Meanwhile under Tomlin's guidance the Steelers have made significant updates to both of theirs that attempt to make adaptations to league wide changes.

As for making the offense better, all that happened is that they got Ray Rice and a competent QB at the same time. Not super hard to figure out to get the ball to Ray RIce or the TE then take a few moonball shots.

[DesertSteel]

Interesting to see that the Ravens are not in the top 10 and that the steelers are 2nd but despite that, the Ravens almost won the division in 2016.I was not crazy when I said John Harbaugh was a better coach than Tomlin almost 2 months ago.


http://www.steelersuniverse.com/foru...or-Mike-Tomlin

Finishing 3 games back is not "almost winning the division" lol.

[Mojouw]

I know this is threatening to derail this thread, but I really wish people would take the time to think through an argument before just running with it. I also hesitated to post all this because I really don't want to come off as personally trashing a great poster in polamalubeast. That being said...I know right -- the internet equivalent of "no disrespect..."

We are talking about this head coach -- http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ty-mornhinweg/

People freak out that Tomlin fired 2 coordinators in Arians and Lebeau to "scapegoat" his failures as a coach. Harbaugh is on 6 OC's and at least one or two DC's now. But he is the better coach?

People say that BB is in Tomlin's head. Let us not forget that this what the Patriots did to Harbaugh -- http://deadspin.com/the-patriots-ann...h-e-1678818453 and something that Harbaugh whines about to this day.

Can you imagine if the Steelers got whupped by a eligible receiver ploy? I mean people would lose their minds. But Harbaugh is the better coach.

Since 2008, Tomlin has won more games and accumulated better overall talent. Now is that on Colbert and Newsome and not the coaches? I don't know, but Tomlin seems to get the players he asks for. Same must be reasonably extended to Harbaugh. This isn't exactly a murders row of draft wins - http://www.pro-football-reference.co.../rav/draft.htm

Meanwhile with this record - http://www.pro-football-reference.co.../pit/draft.htm -- Tomlin is routinely called an idiot after every draft. Hell, the Ravens best offensive player was drafted by Tomlin.

But because Harbaugh has beat the Patriots a couple of times he gets put in this special level of coaching genius. Other than that, what is there to recommend him? Every time his roster has faced similar challenges and injuries that Tomlin led teams routinely overcome -- they've folded like a cheap suit. Now that the Ryans are out of the league, I have the Harbaugh boys as the next best contenders for the all hat and no cowboy crown.

[st33lersguy]

Interesting to see that the Ravens are not in the top 10 and that the steelers are 2nd but despite that, the Ravens almost won the division in 2016.I was not crazy when I said John Harbaugh was a better coach than Tomlin almost 2 months ago.


http://www.steelersuniverse.com/foru...or-Mike-Tomlin

Yeah going 8-8 last year and 13-19 the last 2 years without a top 10 roster is really sometihng to be proud of.

Harbaugh has had a losing record since Ray Lewis retired and Ed Reed was cut and Harbaugh has had fewer playoff appearances since that time than Tomlin had playoff wins last year. But I guess none of that matters since John Harbaugh beat Bellichick and Brady 3 times (out of 9 tries mind you)

[pczach]

I know this is threatening to derail this thread, but I really wish people would take the time to think through an argument before just running with it. I also hesitated to post all this because I really don't want to come off as personally trashing a great poster in polamalubeast. That being said...I know right -- the internet equivalent of "no disrespect..."

We are talking about this head coach -- http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ty-mornhinweg/

People freak out that Tomlin fired 2 coordinators in Arians and Lebeau to "scapegoat" his failures as a coach. Harbaugh is on 6 OC's and at least one or two DC's now. But he is the better coach?

People say that BB is in Tomlin's head. Let us not forget that this what the Patriots did to Harbaugh -- http://deadspin.com/the-patriots-ann...h-e-1678818453 and something that Harbaugh whines about to this day.

Can you imagine if the Steelers got whupped by a eligible receiver ploy? I mean people would lose their minds. But Harbaugh is the better coach.

Since 2008, Tomlin has won more games and accumulated better overall talent. Now is that on Colbert and Newsome and not the coaches? I don't know, but Tomlin seems to get the players he asks for. Same must be reasonably extended to Harbaugh. This isn't exactly a murders row of draft wins - http://www.pro-football-reference.co.../rav/draft.htm

Meanwhile with this record - http://www.pro-football-reference.co.../pit/draft.htm -- Tomlin is routinely called an idiot after every draft. Hell, the Ravens best offensive player was drafted by Tomlin.

But because Harbaugh has beat the Patriots a couple of times he gets put in this special level of coaching genius. Other than that, what is there to recommend him? Every time his roster has faced similar challenges and injuries that Tomlin led teams routinely overcome -- they've folded like a cheap suit. Now that the Ryans are out of the league, I have the Harbaugh boys as the next best contenders for the all hat and no cowboy crown.

I agree with you on all of this. Tomlin gets killed by much of his own fan base for any misstep, or perceived misstep, every single time.

Here's where I think some Steelers fans get there opinion of Harbaugh:

1. He has seemed to do well in head-to-head matchups with Tomlin.

2. He has had some success against the Patriots....where Tomlin has not.

I'm not saying that I think Harbaugh is a better coach than Tomlin because I don't believe that at all. I'm trying to explain where I think much of the legend of John Harbaugh comes from around here.

Fans just never want to hear that sometimes certain teams just match up well with you. In the minds of many, the Patriots are far superior to the Steelers and that the Steelers only won Super Bowls because they didn't have to go through the Patriots to get there. It doesn't matter that the Pats can't seem to beat the Giants and struggled against the Ravens and the Broncos.

It's simply a case of fans overreacting because they were hurt by things that affected them personally. The coach always takes the brunt of that anger.

[polamalubeast]

I have several things to answer, that it is impossible to answer all!

Yeah going 8-8 last year and 13-19 the last 2 years without a top 10 roster is really sometihng to be proud of.

Harbaugh has had a losing record since Ray Lewis retired and Ed Reed was cut and Harbaugh has had fewer playoff appearances since that time than Tomlin had playoff wins last year. But I guess none of that matters since John Harbaugh beat Bellichick and Brady 3 times (out of 9 tries mind you)

Lewis and Reed was done in 2012!...It was one of the worst defense of history to win a superbowl!

In fact, the biggest loss of ravens after 2012 was Boldin.

Finishing 3 games back is not "almost winning the division" lol.

If the Ravens win week 16 against us, the ravens win the division.I hope you get recalled how the game was close!

And it is not true that the Bengals would have helped the steelers in week 17!

All the Harbaugh fanboys can never identify what it is that he actually does. His teams consistently fold in big games.

It's so false!....I mean, Harbaugh is 10-5 in his career in the playoffs and the Ravens never lost when his team was favorite and they won several games when his team was underdog!

And in their defeats, they were competitive at every games except for the defeat against the Colts in 2009.The other 4 losses, the Ravens had a chance to win despite the Ravens were underdogs at each of its games

People say that BB is in Tomlin's head. Let us not forget that this what the Patriots did to Harbaugh

The difference is that the Ravens have almost always been competitive against the Patriots, which is not the case for Tomlin.The pats are more afraid of the Ravens than the steelers at the moment, although the Steelers have more talent than the Ravens.

People freak out that Tomlin fired 2 coordinators in Arians and Lebeau to "scapegoat" his failures as a coach. Harbaugh is on 6 OC's and at least one or two DC's now. But he is the better coach?

2 left the Ravens to become head coach....

Marc Trestman was a horrible hire, but Tomlin also made some atrocious hire too

The ST have always been horrible under Tomlin and Tomlin has hired an awful o-line coach for the 2013 season, which has cost this season by themselves .

[Mojouw]

I agree with you on all of this. Tomlin gets killed by much of his own fan base for any misstep, or perceived misstep, every single time.

Here's where I think some Steelers fans get there opinion of Harbaugh:

1. He has seemed to do well in head-to-head matchups with Tomlin.

2. He has had some success against the Patriots....where Tomlin has not.

I'm not saying that I think Harbaugh is a better coach than Tomlin because I don't believe that at all. I'm trying to explain where I think much of the legend of John Harbaugh comes from around here.

Fans just never want to hear that sometimes certain teams just match up well with you. In the minds of many, the Patriots are far superior to the Steelers and that the Steelers only won Super Bowls because they didn't have to go through the Patriots to get there. It doesn't matter that the Pats can't seem to beat the Giants and struggled against the Ravens and the Broncos.

It's simply a case of fans overreacting because they were hurt by things that affected them personally. The coach always takes the brunt of that anger.

Well said. I just think that an knee-jerk emotional reaction based on two biased data-points is a faulty way to construct an argument. I realize that there is some validity to the frustration that the lies behind the argument and there are facts to back any position anyone wants to take, but despite the mountain of media related to the NFL little of football related discussion is data driven.

Articles and lists of rankings and ratings come out everyday. Very few, if any, establish how their evaluations were arrived at or based on. I kinda feel like it isn't that hard to establish a set of parameters and stick to it.

[Mojouw]

I have several things to answer, that it is impossible to answer all!

Almost none of those things are equivalent. STs coaches versus coordinators? C'mon.

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/...mvsteam?opp=19 - 3 wins and 6 losses.

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/...mvsteam?opp=19 - 2 wins and 5 losses

So the Pats things is just basically an inflated and skewed perception based on all of our emotional reactions to heartbreaking losses by our favorite team.

Spin Harbaugh's record all you want. Tomlin's is better in Wins and Losses since the two have both been in the league - http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com...-a-meaningless

[DesertSteel]

If the Ravens win week 16 against us, the ravens win the division.I hope you get recalled how the game was close!

If Ifs and Buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a great Christmas. 8-8 is 8-8. 11-5 is 11-5.

[polamalubeast]

If Ifs and Buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a great Christmas. 8-8 is 8-8. 11-5 is 11-5.

Yes, but it does not been easy for steelers to win this division.

[DesertSteel]

Yes, but it does not been easy for steelers to win this division.

Of course not. The AFCN has not been the cakewalk that the Patriots get every year in the East.

[teegre]

8-8 is 8-8. 11-5 is 11-5.

Wrong!!!

8-8 > 11-5

[Mojouw]

In 2015 the Ravens went 2-4 without Flacco.

Taking out the five Tommy Maddox games (2-3) in 2004 the Steelers are 11-8 in games not started by Roethlisberger since 2005 - most of those coming in Tomlin's tenure.

Tell me again how Harbaugh is a better coach?

[teegre]

In 2015 the Ravens went 2-4 without Flacco.

Taking out the five Tommy Maddox games (2-3) in 2004 the Steelers are 11-8 in games not started by Roethlisberger since 2005 - most of those coming in Tomlin's tenure.

Tell me again how Harbaugh is a better coach?

1) 4 losses is better than 8 losses.

2) Those 8 losses were to sub .200 teams.

3. Three of those losses to sub .200 teams were Harbaugh-led Ravens teams.

[polamalubeast]

If the win-loss record would be the only thing that is important for a HC, Chuck Noll would be the 3rd best coach in Steelers history behind Cowher and Tomlin.

I mean, we have to look at the quality of the roster before ....

[Mojouw]

If the win-loss record would be the only thing that is important for a HC, Chuck Noll would be the 3rd best coach in Steelers history behind Cowher and Tomlin.

I mean, we have to look at the quality of the roster before ....

Fine. Establish specific criteria for evaluating a HC. I will gladly take Tomlin against the field. Is he the best? Nope. Is he better than a select group? Almost certainly by any measure.

Now if it is all going to be based on this feels more important than that -- well we are done.

FWIW - Noll apparently shouldn't be regarded as that good of a coach because he got the majority of those wins with the most loaded roster of all time.

[polamalubeast]

Fine. Establish specific criteria for evaluating a HC. I will gladly take Tomlin against the field. Is he the best? Nope. Is he better than a select group? Almost certainly by any measure.

Now if it is all going to be based on this feels more important than that -- well we are done.

FWIW - Noll apparently shouldn't be regarded as that good of a coach because he got the majority of those wins with the most loaded roster of all time.

The difference is this is Noll who built the steelers of the 1970s.

Tomlin is a very good coach, but it's just that I think Harbaugh(also Sean Payton,etc) is better.

[Mojouw]

The difference is this is Noll who built the steelers of the 1970s.

Tomlin is a very good coach, but it's just that I think Harbaugh(also Sean Payton,etc) is better.

And a scouting staff that was all over non-traditional sources of players. And Rooney. And a host of others that I am likely forgetting. Was Noll an amazing coach and incredible teacher? Absolutely. But he can not be given all of the credit for building the Steelers of the 1970's and then turn around and have Tomlin get none of the credit for the recent/current Steelers.

Again, I will ask it as plainly as I can: I am interested in understanding what your thinking that Harbaugh, Payton, etc are better HC than Tomlin is based on? I honestly am. But if we are going to use metrics (wins and losses, winning %'s etc ) then you have chosen a hard road to hoe.

[polamalubeast]

And a scouting staff that was all over non-traditional sources of players. And Rooney. And a host of others that I am likely forgetting. Was Noll an amazing coach and incredible teacher? Absolutely. But he can not be given all of the credit for building the Steelers of the 1970's and then turn around and have Tomlin get none of the credit for the recent/current Steelers.

Again, I will ask it as plainly as I can: I am interested in understanding what your thinking that Harbaugh, Payton, etc are better HC than Tomlin is based on? I honestly am. But if we are going to use metrics (wins and losses, winning %'s etc ) then you have chosen a hard road to hoe.

I'm not saying that Tomlin deserves no credit, since he is a good coach, but it's just I think a few coaches are better.

For Harbaugh, when his roster was very good (2008 to 2012), he had a great success despite that Flacco is far from being the best QB of the Nfl.In its 5 years, the ravens have been in the AFC title game three times and they have always been competitive in the playoffs

I think Harbaugh is a much better coach in the playoffs than Tomlin.Never one and done in his career, never lost as a favorite, his team has always been very hard to beat and the ravens have won a lot of game as underdog on the road in the playoffs.



For Sean Payton, Payton only needs help to build an acceptable defense.When the Saints defense was average (2009 to 2011), Payton had a great success.

Also, Payton is one of the best offensive mind of the NFL.Him with the talent of the Steelers,the Steelers would be able to beat some records!

[st33lersguy]

Tomlin has been able to win with a new team when the old vets retired and after roster turnover occurred, Harbaugh hasn't

Him with the talent of the Steelers,the Steelers would be able to beat some records!

Doesn't this statement reflect better on Tomlin's player development?

[teegre]

For Harbaugh, when his roster was very good (2008 to 2012)

I think Harbaugh is a much better coach in the playoffs than Tomlin.

Interesting that you mention those specific years... when Tomlin was 2-0 versus Harbsugh in the playoffs.