Which QB Would You Take?

[Mojouw]

what team paid scout has said this ?

we hear talking heads ( that are consistently wrong make claims ) but those same talking heads didn't have Mahomes as a 1st rounder till a month ago now have Webb as one until a week ago but reports from the owners meetings have webb as a solid 1st rounder , is it smoke being blown in the lying season or is it fact ? IDK


what I do know is Mahomes has the best arm in this draft and if I am taking a chance on any QB in any draft I want the one with the best arm because I can not teach that , everything else is coachable same for any pos. give me the player with the unteachable skill set and I will coach him to be the player I desire ....

its better to own the unteachable skills than the more ready player who lacks those skills and will never be better than average because of it

Yes! Here are two scouting reports from one of my favorite draft sites:

Mahomes: http://www.thehuddlereport.com/archi...ck.Mahomes.htm

Peterman: http://www.thehuddlereport.com/archi...n.Peterman.htm

Assume the writer of those is correct (he may not be) but it points to something that is bubbling below the surface on this thread. Is this QB class really all that lacking in talent, or does it just lack "obvious" guys that look like what NFL scouts want for the position?

Peterman gets a ton of love in some draftnik/scouting circles because he is a pocket-passer with classic mechanics. But when I watch him I see Andy Dalton or a far less athletic Alex Smith. A guy that can make some throws, but can not challenge and NFL defense vertically and someone who has the total inability to escape pressure. Why would I want to draft that dude?

Mahomes, can do it all. He just doesn't know how to play the game at an NFL level mentally yet. Will he ever - no idea. But if he can do what he can do now by basically telling guys to run to towards the tree and cut left and I'll hit you. Then proceed to rifle the ball all over the damn place with no mechanics -- Imagine if he takes to coaching well?

[Dwinsgames]

Yes! Here are two scouting reports from one of my favorite draft sites:

Mahomes: http://www.thehuddlereport.com/archi...ck.Mahomes.htm

Peterman: http://www.thehuddlereport.com/archi...n.Peterman.htm

Assume the writer of those is correct (he may not be) but it points to something that is bubbling below the surface on this thread. Is this QB class really all that lacking in talent, or does it just lack "obvious" guys that look like what NFL scouts want for the position?

Peterman gets a ton of love in some draftnik/scouting circles because he is a pocket-passer with classic mechanics. But when I watch him I see Andy Dalton or a far less athletic Alex Smith. A guy that can make some throws, but can not challenge and NFL defense vertically and someone who has the total inability to escape pressure. Why would I want to draft that dude?

Mahomes, can do it all. He just doesn't know how to play the game at an NFL level mentally yet. Will he ever - no idea. But if he can do what he can do now by basically telling guys to run to towards the tree and cut left and I'll hit you. Then proceed to rifle the ball all over the damn place with no mechanics -- Imagine if he takes to coaching well?

insert Big Bens name where it says Mahomes in the bold and that is a statement I read far to many times to count back in the day ....

[Born2Steel]

Yes! Here are two scouting reports from one of my favorite draft sites:

Mahomes: http://www.thehuddlereport.com/archi...ck.Mahomes.htm

Peterman: http://www.thehuddlereport.com/archi...n.Peterman.htm

Assume the writer of those is correct (he may not be) but it points to something that is bubbling below the surface on this thread. Is this QB class really all that lacking in talent, or does it just lack "obvious" guys that look like what NFL scouts want for the position?

Peterman gets a ton of love in some draftnik/scouting circles because he is a pocket-passer with classic mechanics. But when I watch him I see Andy Dalton or a far less athletic Alex Smith. A guy that can make some throws, but can not challenge and NFL defense vertically and someone who has the total inability to escape pressure. Why would I want to draft that dude?

Mahomes, can do it all. He just doesn't know how to play the game at an NFL level mentally yet. Will he ever - no idea. But if he can do what he can do now by basically telling guys to run to towards the tree and cut left and I'll hit you. Then proceed to rifle the ball all over the damn place with no mechanics -- Imagine if he takes to coaching well?

If that's the case, it's Mahomes at 30, or Kelly in the comp3rd/4th? We need to take one or the other.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I sure haven't seen that about Webb. Who's mocking him in the first? And more specifically the early-mid first where it would be considered a drop to be there at 30? Do you have some links?

I've seen Mahomes mocked at the end of the first, at best.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...stround-talent

"teams totaling in the double digits have told him he's a first round talent"

"It's more common for a QB to go higher than his grade calls for due to the value teams place in the position"

"A personnel executive told analyst Daniel Jeremiah last month that Webb will be the best QB in the 2017 class"

32 - 10 = 22. 30-22 = 8. 8, as in there are no fewer than 8 teams that draft in front of us that think Webb is a 1st round draftable player. That would make his selection a potential drop. A drop is relative, but when you have that many teams vouching for him, i think its fair to say it could potentially be called as much. Players who aren't mocked in the 1st round at all are picked all the time. If I told people Patrick Ramsey was a 1st round pick there's a strong chance the average football fan would be surprised or would have thought he was picked later. In a decade or 2 there's a good chance that people will be surprised that Teddy Bridgewater, Tim Tebow, etc. were first round picks too because to them their hindsight would tell them that the writing was on the wall that they werent anything special. Hell, Artie Burns was a wicked curveball to damn near everyone. I saw him mocked once in the 1st round by Casserly I believe it was but id be surprised if anyone found in anywhere around there aside from that. A lot of pundits and teams had draft grades on Artie Burns going down to the 3rd round, and others according to Mayock that think he's the best cornerback in last years draft (yup, that includes Jalen Ramsey).

Don't see media pundits mocking him in the first but clearly a lot of teams in the NFL beg to differ. There's always a few polarizing players in terms of draft value

[DesertSteel]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...stround-talent

"teams totaling in the double digits have told him he's a first round talent"

"It's more common for a QB to go higher than his grade calls for due to the value teams place in the position"

"A personnel executive told analyst Daniel Jeremiah last month that Webb will be the best QB in the 2017 class"

32 - 10 = 22. 30-22 = 8. 8, as in there are no fewer than 8 teams that draft in front of us that think Webb is a 1st round draftable player. That would make his selection a potential drop. A drop is relative, but when you have that many teams vouching for him, i think its fair to say it could potentially be called as much. Players who aren't mocked in the 1st round at all are picked all the time. If I told people Patrick Ramsey was a 1st round pick there's a strong chance the average football fan would be surprised or would have thought he was picked later. In a decade or 2 there's a good chance that people will be surprised that Teddy Bridgewater, Tim Tebow, etc. were first round picks too because to them their hindsight would tell them that the writing was on the wall that they werent anything special. Hell, Artie Burns was a wicked curveball to damn near everyone. I saw him mocked once in the 1st round by Casserly I believe it was but id be surprised if anyone found in anywhere around there aside from that. A lot of pundits and teams had draft grades on Artie Burns going down to the 3rd round, and others according to Mayock that think he's the best cornerback in last years draft (yup, that includes Jalen Ramsey).

Don't see media pundits mocking him in the first but clearly a lot of teams in the NFL beg to differ. There's always a few polarizing players in terms of draft value

Really that's nothing more than talk. So and so said. I bet none of those "double digit teams" take him when it's their turn. There's now way that Webb goes R1. I'll be happy to eat crow if he does.

[Born2Steel]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...nce-to-impress

[LLT]

Out of those four I would take Trubisky. However....I would take Mahomes if available at the bottom of the 1st round.

[Dwinsgames]

I am not a happy camper about planning for a future without Ben at the helm but I sure would be a whole lot unhappier if we did not plan for that future without Ben and had a 20+ year drought between Franchise starters .

that being said the time to draft a 1st round QB is when a 1st round quality QB presents itself and if Mahomes is there you got to take him

if that means packaging some later round picks together to move back into the end of the 3rd to middle of the 4th to get another piece and limit the end of your draft ( guys who normally do not make the team anyways) so be it we can make up our practice squad with higher signing bonus's to guys who did not make final cuts elsewhere

[DesertSteel]

I am not a happy camper about planning for a future without Ben at the helm but I sure would be a whole lot unhappier if we did not plan for that future without Ben and had a 20+ year drought between Franchise starters .

that being said the time to draft a 1st round QB is when a 1st round quality QB presents itself and if Mahomes is there you got to take him

if that means packaging some later round picks together to move back into the end of the 3rd to middle of the 4th to get another piece and limit the end of your draft ( guys who normally do not make the team anyways) so be it we can make up our practice squad with higher signing bonus's to guys who did not make final cuts elsewhere

So you aren't proposing to move up to take Mahomes earlier in the first, right? You are proposing that we take Mahomes at 30 and then try to backfill day 2 talent by packaging some day 3 picks. Am I right? I think that would be a good plan.

[Dwinsgames]

So you aren't proposing to move up to take Mahomes earlier in the first, right? You are proposing that we take Mahomes at 30 and then try to backfill day 2 talent by packaging some day 3 picks. Am I right? I think that would be a good plan.

that is exactly what I would try to do if I where calling the shots

if I could have 5 picks in the first 150 PLUS Mahomes ...

I think I could address our needs pretty well and still have a QB of the future in house learning under Big Ben

[pczach]

So you aren't proposing to move up to take Mahomes earlier in the first, right? You are proposing that we take Mahomes at 30 and then try to backfill day 2 talent by packaging some day 3 picks. Am I right? I think that would be a good plan.

I know they never do it, but if Mahomes is still available and quarterbacks are falling in the draft, do they try to trade down a few picks, to pick up an additional later pick and then are still able to snag Mahomes very early in the second and use the additional pick in a deep draft class at positions of need?

If they were going to take him, that would be the best case scenario. You still get the quarterback you like and you actually still get the same number of draft picks to fill the rest of the roster. It then gives them the ammo to move up to snag players they love with the remaining picks.

[86WARD]

Mahomes won't make it past the Giants so if Pittsburgh wants him, they are going to have to jump New York.

[DesertSteel]

that is exactly what I would try to do if I where calling the shots

if I could have 5 picks in the first 150 PLUS Mahomes ...

I think I could address our needs pretty well and still have a QB of the future in house learning under Big Ben

Yeah I'm not sure why teams treat 7th round picks like they are worth gold.

[Dwinsgames]

Yeah I'm not sure why teams treat 7th round picks like they are worth gold.

they are lottery tickets , you don't just throw them away until you see if they are a winner or not , sure your faith in them is lacking but there is always a chance

[DesertSteel]

they are lottery tickets , you don't just throw them away until you see if they are a winner or not , sure your faith in them is lacking but there is always a chance

Team A: "I'll trade you my pro bowl DT for your 7th"
Team B: "No way! I need your pro bowl DT AND your 7th too"

[st33lersguy]

This is a deep draft class, I would rather not give away picks for a big 12 system QB

[Craic]

Mahomes won't make it past the Giants so if Pittsburgh wants him, they are going to have to jump New York.

It'd take our third and fifth paired with our first to move up to Miami's position ahead of the Giants. Or, another such combination, such as our first and second while getting Miamis' third round compensatory pick. That would leave us with three third round pics, which we could bundle and jump back into the low mid second round, or trade two of to jump into the high third round.

I'm starting to like the idea of trading our first and second for Miami's first and third (compensatory). That way, we get Mahome in the first, and either a LB/CB in the low middle second, or a TE in the third. Heck if TEs start falling, we could get all three, and I'd be happy with that.

[BurghBoy412]

Mahomes won't make it past the Giants so if Pittsburgh wants him, they are going to have to jump New York.

Is there evidence to support this or is this just speculation? The Giants also need an RB1. 29th in running last year. This article gives a good breakdown of the Giants needs. It's. Lot more than QB of the future http://www.upi.com/Sports_News/NFL/2...9661491320943/

[BurghBoy412]

Is there evidence to support this or is this just speculation?

IMO the Giants really need a RB1 and A TE1

[86WARD]

It'd take our third and fifth paired with our first to move up to Miami's position ahead of the Giants. Or, another such combination, such as our first and second while getting Miamis' third round compensatory pick. That would leave us with three third round pics, which we could bundle and jump back into the low mid second round, or trade two of to jump into the high third round.

I'm starting to like the idea of trading our first and second for Miami's first and third (compensatory). That way, we get Mahome in the first, and either a LB/CB in the low middle second, or a TE in the third. Heck if TEs start falling, we could get all three, and I'd be happy with that.

Of course there's no hard evidence, there never is during the draft season but there's been quite a few articles linking the two and several mocks that I have seen that have Mahomes going to the Giants. Makes total sense for them.

[DesertSteel]

This is a deep draft class, I would rather not give away picks for a big 12 system QB

There's a lot of credence to this statement. Mahomes played in a circus offense and the Big 12 plays no defense. He's talented but also a big risk. But at 30, the risk lowers. The good personnel people bat around .550 on R1 picks, so no matter what position and what player, there's nothing surefire.

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I'm starting to like the idea of trading our first and second for Miami's first and third (compensatory). That way, we get Mahome in the first, and either a LB/CB in the low middle second, or a TE in the third. Heck if TEs start falling, we could get all three, and I'd be happy with that.

I'm confused. If we trade our 1st and 2nd for Miami's 1st and 3rd how do we take anybody in the 2nd since we traded it?

[Born2Steel]

IMO the Giants really need a RB1 and A TE1

If the Giants get the threat of a run game to go with their WRs and their stacked D? Damn! Still, QB is a harder role to fill if they are taking one this draft.

[Craic]

Of course there's no hard evidence, there never is during the draft season but there's been quite a few articles linking the two and several mocks that I have seen that have Mahomes going to the Giants. Makes total sense for them.

True. I was just responding to another post. In thinking about it, however, Ben and Eli have the same number of years under their belt, so it's pretty likely. However, on the other hand, Eli Manning has started every game since 2004, and has remained pretty consistent on average since 2008, finishing last year with a QB rating of 86.0, which is still 2+ points higher than his career QB rating. Then, there's genetics to think about. Peyton played seventeen years, and in all but his last year, he was still effective (still was his last year, but he was struggling to make throws). His father played 13 years, but got crushed from a bad O line, getting sacked almost 10 percent of the time during his years with NO, and over 15 percent of the time in his time with Houston and Minnesota (by comparison, Eli is getting sacked 4.6 percent of the time and only once over 4.5 percent since 2009).

With that said, unless Eli is making noises behind the scene, I doubt we see him retire. In fact, with Odell Beckham and Marshall as his main targets, he has a good reason for returning. Of course, with Brad Wing and Antwon Blake on their roster, you can almost guarantee another SB now.

There's a lot of credence to this statement. Mahomes played in a circus offense and the Big 12 plays no defense. He's talented but also a big risk. But at 30, the risk lowers. The good personnel people bat around .550 on R1 picks, so no matter what position and what player, there's nothing surefire.

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I'm confused. If we trade our 1st and 2nd for Miami's 1st and 3rd how do we take anybody in the 2nd since we traded it?

Because three third round picks (in my scenario, that'd be Miami's, ours, and our compensatory pick, which can now be traded) bundled are enough to move up into the low middle second round. Two third round picks bundled are enough to move into the high third round while keeping a low third round pick.

[Craic]

There's a lot of credence to this statement. Mahomes played in a circus offense and the Big 12 plays no defense. He's talented but also a big risk. But at 30, the risk lowers. The good personnel people bat around .550 on R1 picks, so no matter what position and what player, there's nothing surefire.

I honestly think that "circus offense" argument has lost much of its credence. It's based on the "spread offense" not preparing QBs for the pros. Sure, that may have been true five or ten years ago. But in 2014, 75% of all NFL dropbacks came out of the shotgun. As for the Steelers, Ben dropped back 75% of the time in 2014. Last season, NFL drop backs beginning in the shotgun wen tup to 78.9 percent.

Moreover, how often do you only see the Steelers passing out of a two WR formation? Normally, it's a three, and with the TE and RB, a four or five route play. Pretty much the same circus offense you see in college. The only difference, however, is that you're playing against a much better defense. On the other hand, as others have pointed out, Mahomes's passes were not passes that could have been easily picked off by a better DB. He was hitting back-shoulder throws, basket catches, and players in stride.

Personally, I think QBs should be judged individually, rather than by what conference they play in.

[st33lersguy]

There's a lot of credence to this statement. Mahomes played in a circus offense and the Big 12 plays no defense. He's talented but also a big risk. But at 30, the risk lowers. The good personnel people bat around .550 on R1 picks, so no matter what position and what player, there's nothing surefire.

What I was trying to say is that in this deep class, I would rather stand pat and take the best player on the board at a position of need than spend extra draft picks trading up for Mahomes like some are saying

[pczach]

I honestly think that "circus offense" argument has lost much of its credence. It's based on the "spread offense" not preparing QBs for the pros. Sure, that may have been true five or ten years ago. But in 2014, 75% of all NFL dropbacks came out of the shotgun. As for the Steelers, Ben dropped back 75% of the time in 2014. Last season, NFL drop backs beginning in the shotgun wen tup to 78.9 percent.

Moreover, how often do you only see the Steelers passing out of a two WR formation? Normally, it's a three, and with the TE and RB, a four or five route play. Pretty much the same circus offense you see in college. The only difference, however, is that you're playing against a much better defense. On the other hand, as others have pointed out, Mahomes's passes were not passes that could have been easily picked off by a better DB. He was hitting back-shoulder throws, basket catches, and players in stride.

Personally, I think QBs should be judged individually, rather than by what conference they play in.

The differences come when they run the spread and the read option. It makes the defense commit personnel to defend the handoff to the back and the quarterback. It also creates mismatches and forces defensive backs at times to pick receivers because they are outnumbered. In those systems, the quarterbacks have much easier reads and throws.

It's not a knock on the kid. It simply creates doubt as to how those quarterbacks are capable of playing in NFL offenses because they have never done such a huge part of the job description at the next level. If they can't put it on tape, it is simply a projection of someone's talent as opposed to seeing them actually do it. The interview process is huge because it is so important to figure out football IQ, work ethic, intellect, and dozens of other characteristics that they are never able to display in the offenses they have been operating in.

It just makes everything much, much harder to figure out, and the risk of making mistakes in evaluating quarterback talent skyrockets. Even if you have a bright kid, that doesn't mean that he will be able to process the information fast enough even when he fully understands the offense and all the reads and assignments. He may not be able to handle throws from the pocket with pressure in his face and keeping his eyes down the field. It's a whole new world from a football perspective. Some absorb everything quickly and make the adjustments relatively quickly. Some will never be able to master the new responsibilities and mental hurdles that will be put before them.

If the Steelers take a quarterback, we just have to hope that they get their evaluation of the kid right. They'll be doing things in ways that they have never done them before in their football lives.

[Craic]

The differences come when they run the spread and the read option. It makes the defense commit personnel to defend the handoff to the back and the quarterback. It also creates mismatches and forces defensive backs at times to pick receivers because they are outnumbered. In those systems, the quarterbacks have much easier reads and throws.

It's not a knock on the kid. It simply creates doubt as to how those quarterbacks are capable of playing in NFL offenses because they have never done such a huge part of the job description at the next level. If they can't put it on tape, it is simply a projection of someone's talent as opposed to seeing them actually do it. The interview process is huge because it is so important to figure out football IQ, work ethic, intellect, and dozens of other characteristics that they are never able to display in the offenses they have been operating in.

It just makes everything much, much harder to figure out, and the risk of making mistakes in evaluating quarterback talent skyrockets. Even if you have a bright kid, that doesn't mean that he will be able to process the information fast enough even when he fully understands the offense and all the reads and assignments. He may not be able to handle throws from the pocket with pressure in his face and keeping his eyes down the field. It's a whole new world from a football perspective. Some absorb everything quickly and make the adjustments relatively quickly. Some will never be able to master the new responsibilities and mental hurdles that will be put before them.

If the Steelers take a quarterback, we just have to hope that they get their evaluation of the kid right. They'll be doing things in ways that they have never done them before in their football lives.

Fair enough.

Of course, if what we're hearing is correct, Mahome is changing calls on the line already, which shows a mental acuity already (again, if what we're hearing is correct). My one big concern for him isn't that, however. As I said before, there's times where I feel he just locks onto a receiver. Of course, if the guy is covered, he goes through progressions, and looks to do it well.

[BurghBoy412]

If the Giants get the threat of a run game to go with their WRs and their stacked D? Damn! Still, QB is a harder role to fill if they are taking one this draft.

Listened to a podcast this morning and according to the scout they had on, he thinks Mahomes will go at 11 to the Saints. He was saying Mahomes strength​s would fit really well in Payton's system. I agreed with him.

[Born2Steel]

Listened to a podcast this morning and according to the scout they had on, he thinks Mahomes will go at 11 to the Saints. He was saying Mahomes strength​s would fit really well in Payton's system. I agreed with him.

Saints have 2 1st round picks so maybe that makes more sense than other teams. Mahomes at 11 and best of edge, DB, WR, ILB, whatever at 32. I could see that.

[BurghBoy412]

Saints have 2 1st round picks so maybe that makes more sense than other teams. Mahomes at 11 and best of edge, DB, WR, ILB, whatever at 32. I could see that.

At this point its all about how much teams value these guys. It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. The way I see it right now I'll take just about any guy I've seen mocked to us except TJ Watt. IMO he is highly overvalued.