What Did We Learn Today?

[awe1028]

I believe we have to draft another pass-rushing OLB in the first two rounds of next year's draft...

Uh oh... people will lose their minds if that happens.

I wouldn't. I was calling for them to select Spence so I certainly would not be upset if they selected one in the upcoming draft. The problem is that assuming the Steelers will be a playoff team, they will be picking at the bottom of the draft which means the odds that they will have access to the top level pass rushing OLBs will be low. That's why it was such a huge faux pas when they failed to select Spence when they had the chance

[Mojouw]

the only way IMO you can get a pass rush with the current group of players is to put rookies on an island and hope the pass rush gets there quickly enough because if they do not we will be burnt deep and burn a lot ..

Wentz is not a good barometer of a pass rush though because even with a great pass rush we wouldn't have touched him much , he gets the ball out as quick or quicker than just about anyone ...

This is the core of it for me. The skill set of the secondary is a bit chopped up. Cockrell, Burns, and Gilbert are man corners. Most of their problems go away if they just have to run with someone. Gay, Golson (if he ever plays football again), Davis, Mitchell, and Golden are all best suited for zone. At some point, at least if I was the coordinator, I would consider running some combo of Burns/Gilbert/Cockrell in man coverages on the outsides and the rest play a zone. Free up another LB or two to pass rush.

Wentz was "poised" yesterday - but it wasn't like he challenged the defense. What, maybe a dozen throws over 6 yards? Getting beat deep wasn't the problem. It was short area stuff. No pass rush gets home in 2.5 seconds. It was missing all of the middle defenders (shazier (I know he played but he was hobbled), timmons, and golden). Those guys are all intended to cover and blow-up screens.

[steelreserve]

What did we learn?

1) You won't get any pressure on the QB if you don't try. Does our pass rush suck that bad? I honestly don't even know. All we've been doing is lining up and saying "here are the four guys who will be rushing, go ahead and block them" and the offense says "OK, no problem, we'll be sure to do that." We haven't even been using any defensive looks that could keep the offense off balance, much less actually rushing aggressively. I can probably count on one hand the number of actual blitzes I've seen this season. Simply dropping a pass-rushing linebacker into coverage and rushing a different linebacker instead (surprise!), so that you still have four guys rushing, does not count as an aggressive rush or a "blitz."

2) Shazier cannot cover the tight end. He may be fast, but for whatever reason he is just not the answer there and never has been. I really think this role demands a safety, or at least a different LB who specializes in it. Thought maybe Feeney was taken to be that guy, but I don't know if we'll see him this season. At any rate, what we are doing is not working, and this has been a thorn in our side for going on a decade now.

3) Our receiving corps is Brown plus a bunch of situational guys. Nobody else can get open, which is a huge problem. Neither Wheaton nor Coates is looking like a real #2 receiver. Coates gives you the occasional big play and then disappears for 95% of the game. Wheaton was a good #3 but has failed in a more prominent role, and yesterday's performance was just horrid. Rogers is an OK slot receiver and nothing more; I hate to say it, but those kinds of receivers are a dime a dozen. The tight ends have some promise, but are a pretty mediocre bunch right now and have obvious exploits. Why haven't we seen DHB on the field? He's shown that he can at least get out there and provide an occasional spark, plus make some of those mid-range plays that nobody else on the team seems capable of making right now.

There's always a bunch of other little niggling stuff about playcalling and stopping the run, but I think those are the big ones, and a lot of our other problems are waterfall effects of them.

[Born2Steel]

On the AB front, blame Bryant and Bell. Wheaton and Coates are inconsistent at best, DHB can't stay in the game which tells me he's not the answer or he would be out there more. The offense will only improve with Bell back.

Shazier can cover anyone. But that's not his main responsibility in zone.

No pass rush because we have none. you are correct.

[Dwinsgames]

Why haven't we seen DHB on the field? He's shown that he can at least get out there and provide an occasional spark, plus make some of those mid-range plays that nobody else on the team seems capable of making right now.

we did , the tie of possession in the end zone which they called a INT ( when all ties are supposed to go to the offense )

that was DHB he actually aided the defender to come down with part of the ball while trying to make a play himself , I do not fault him for that he was trying to make a play .. I also have issue to the refs giving the ball to the eagles on what to me was a tie in possession both guys had the ball ...

but to steal a line from the much hated (and rightfully so ) Hillary Clinton at this point what difference does it make .............

[Craic]

Much of this argument assumes a static status quo. That's a poor premise to begin from. Burns and Davis have tackling issues that are extending drives and leading . . .

Nope, I think you pretty much nailed it on a lot of things. A couple minor points . . . the middle wasn't soft to begin with (run support, I mean), it only went soft when Timmons got injured. Also, our two starting DB rookies, I think, are playing a more solid game already than we saw last year from certain DBs. Other than that, I'm in agreement with much of what you posted.

What we learned...

1. Heath is sorely missed.

2. Wheaton needs reps/confidence.

3. Momentum is almost as important as a good gameplan.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Heath: I think he's missed as much or more for his blocking, but yeah, we don't have the safety valve we had in him. A shame, too. I'm wondering if the TE position is beginning to climb up the draft charts for the Steelers.

I totally agree with this. If his team just got ONE guy like James Harrison in his prime (think Von Miller) that could get up field and put pressure on the pocket the whole defense changes. If you have a guy like that then teams will be forced to double them or keep a TE/RB out of passing and other guys open up to get there.

This team is missing ONE player on defense and that's it.

I have to disagree . . . I think we're missing a couple of guys. Most likely, our two OLBs. Maybe three with Timmons injured.

the only way IMO you can get a pass rush with the current group of players is to put rookies on an island and hope the pass rush gets there quickly enough because if they do not we will be burnt deep and burn a lot ..

this isnt a new problem , we are just noticing it more because the front 3 are not getting it done in the pass rush department ( not that they where ever intended to do so in a 3-4 alignment ) but they did out of necessity last year ...

Wentz is not a good barometer of a pass rush though because even with a great pass rush we wouldn't have touched him much , he gets the ball out as quick or quicker than just about anyone ...

Honestly, there's not a thing I can disagree with here. Good observations.

What did we learn?

1) You won't get any pressure on the QB if you don't try. Does our pass rush suck that bad? I honestly don't even know. All we've been doing is lining up and saying "here are the four guys who will be rushing, go ahead and block them" and the offense says "OK, no problem, we'll be sure to do that." We haven't even been using any defensive looks that could keep the offense off balance, much less actually rushing aggressively. I can probably count on one hand the number of actual blitzes I've seen this season. Simply dropping a pass-rushing linebacker into coverage and rushing a different linebacker instead (surprise!), so that you still have four guys rushing, does not count as an aggressive rush or a "blitz."

2) Shazier cannot cover the tight end. He may be fast, but for whatever reason he is just not the answer there and never has been. I really think this role demands a safety, or at least a different LB who specializes in it. Thought maybe Feeney was taken to be that guy, but I don't know if we'll see him this season. At any rate, what we are doing is not working, and this has been a thorn in our side for going on a decade now.

3) Our receiving corps is Brown plus a bunch of situational guys. Nobody else can get open, which is a huge problem. Neither Wheaton nor Coates is looking like a real #2 receiver. Coates gives you the occasional big play and then disappears for 95% of the game. Wheaton was a good #3 but has failed in a more prominent role, and yesterday's performance was just horrid. Rogers is an OK slot receiver and nothing more; I hate to say it, but those kinds of receivers are a dime a dozen. The tight ends have some promise, but are a pretty mediocre bunch right now and have obvious exploits. Why haven't we seen DHB on the field? He's shown that he can at least get out there and provide an occasional spark, plus make some of those mid-range plays that nobody else on the team seems capable of making right now.

There's always a bunch of other little niggling stuff about playcalling and stopping the run, but I think those are the big ones, and a lot of our other problems are waterfall effects of them.

Now that's the way to break it down.

1) yep. Again, I've argued that they did it to protect their rookie DBs, but I also said that they need to be put on an island at times so they can mature and let the pass rush start to develop. This game is the perfect picture of why they needed to start doing that. And honestly, it was interacting with your posts last week that made me think more about it and come to that position.

2) I wouldn't know. Instead of going to the sports bar to watch the game, I decided, "Hey! It's playing on local TV—let's watch it at home!" Yeah, so the Browns game goes into OT, which means I didn't get to see the first 10 minutes of the Steelers game. Then, after the 3rd quarter, they switched it to another game. I need to watch NFL replay to see what I missed, but I keep feeling as though I'm going to throw up just thinking about watching the game again.

3) Wheaton I'll give a pass too, as this is his first game back and needs to get the rust knocked off. But for the rest, yeah, you're right. I'm with you on getting DHB on the field. I think Rogers in his first playing-season has shown upside, so I'll be patient with him as well, he may develop into more, heck same is true with Coates. BUT, our problem is we're having to depend on Wheaton, Coates, and Rogers WAY too much right now. One bright light in that mess—our second best WR is coming back this week.

[86WARD]

It's becoming more evident each week that Coates is nothing but a one trick pony...more so than Mike Wallace ever was.

[Mojouw]

It's becoming more evident each week that Coates is nothing but a one trick pony...more so than Mike Wallace ever was.

I don't see that. I see a guy that is flashing the ability to be the 2nd best WR on the team and is criminally underused. I think the trouble is that no one wants to set the precedent that Wheaton can get Wally Pipped. Also, Eli Rogers likely looks better in practice than Coates. Coates plays better on gamedays.

[86WARD]

I don't see that in Coates at all. All I see is him running down the sideline and possibly making the catch. I don't see any flashes of a number 2. I see more flashes in Rogers than I do Coates.

[st33lersguy]

What did we learn?

1) You won't get any pressure on the QB if you don't try. Does our pass rush suck that bad? I honestly don't even know. All we've been doing is lining up and saying "here are the four guys who will be rushing, go ahead and block them" and the offense says "OK, no problem, we'll be sure to do that." We haven't even been using any defensive looks that could keep the offense off balance, much less actually rushing aggressively. I can probably count on one hand the number of actual blitzes I've seen this season. Simply dropping a pass-rushing linebacker into coverage and rushing a different linebacker instead (surprise!), so that you still have four guys rushing, does not count as an aggressive rush or a "blitz."

I agree, the defensive "scheme" if you can call it that has been so unimaginative and bland. Last year they were more creative with their blitzes and got 48 sacks. This year it is so incredibly bland and unimaginative. Plus Gay is capable, Cockrell helped limit AJ Green to two catches, Mitchell is capable, and even Artie has shown an ability to bat down passes one-on-one, are you telling me we have to rush 4 guys and telegraph who they are every single play just to protect the secondary? And you are also telling me, telegraphing which 4 guys a 5 man o-line needs to blocks and making it easier to pass protect is better for the secondary than an unexpected rusher that can reduce the time allotted for finding a receiver?

[steelreserve]

I agree, the defensive "scheme" if you can call it that has been so unimaginative and bland. Last year they were more creative with their blitzes and got 48 sacks. This year it is so incredibly bland and unimaginative. Plus Gay is capable, Cockrell helped limit AJ Green to two catches, Mitchell is capable, and even Artie has shown an ability to bat down passes one-on-one, are you telling me we have to rush 4 guys and telegraph who they are every single play just to protect the secondary? And you are also telling me, telegraphing which 4 guys a 5 man o-line needs to blocks and making it easier to pass protect is better for the secondary than an unexpected rusher that can reduce the time allotted for finding a receiver?

It depends. Is my last name Butler? Then I might be telling you that. Is my last name Idontwantashittypassdefense? Then no, I'm not telling you that.

[Steeldude]

without a doubt we need a better pass rush, but how?

Jarvis Jones never developed into the player we thought was worthy of a first round draft choice, Bud Dupree is injured, Deebo is in the twilight of his career, and our DL just aren't getting to the QB.

Keith Butler needs to do some serious re-evaluating imo, what he's doing now just isn't working and perhaps we don't have the necessary players.

I believe we have to draft another pass-rushing OLB in the first two rounds of next year's draft...

They could try using Chickillo more. He may or may not be the answer, but it's worth a shot. Perhaps stay in there 3-4 more often. Their dime and nickel doesn't stop pass anyway.

They could use Gilbert(aka Boykin) to help the secondary now rather than in game 14.

I agree with you on needing to draft another OLB, but I hope they don't reach for any OLB with the first pick.

[Craic]

It depends. Is my last name Butler? Then I might be telling you that. Is my last name Idontwantashittypassdefense? Then no, I'm not telling you that.

I might be wrong, but I think his questions where rhetorical and that he's actually agreeing with everything you said.

On top of which, St33lersguy makes some good points. Gay can cover. Cockrell did a good job limiting Green. Now, granted, that's probably because he had help over the top quite often—although a caveat, I haven't gone back to study the tape. Anyone else have a better memory of that game? So, start by putting Gay on an island 7-10 plays a game. Roll the safety over cover the top of Cockrell's guy, then drop two LBs into a short zone with underneath responsibility and the remaining safety covering the top. That way the can help CBs cover slot receivers or break off for a TE in a passing route. That leaves five rushers, with the option of rushing a sixth and stacking a LB and safety for middle field coverage.

Would it work? Don't know, but I'd think it'd work better than a pure zone with no pass rush.

Don't know who said it, but I think I'm convinced a true zone defense needs a 4-3 base system to operate from. Otherwise, we just don't have the guys with the beef to push through the line and create pressure.

[teegre]

They could try using Chickillo more.

When Jarvis got injured, I was hoping that Jarvis would be Wally Pipped.



On a related topic, am I the only one who felt that Chickillo played pretty well...???

[tube517]

When Jarvis got injured, I was hoping that Jarvis would be Wally Pipped.



On a related topic, am I the only one who felt that Chickillo played pretty well...???

Yes, he did more in less snaps than Jarvis.

Chickfila had only 18 snaps vs Jarvis "The Ghost" Jones 45 snaps. I"m thinking those 18 snaps were when Jarvis got hurt??

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/09...counts-week-3/

[Steeldude]

When Jarvis got injured, I was hoping that Jarvis would be Wally Pipped.



On a related topic, am I the only one who felt that Chickillo played pretty well...???

Hard to say. I couldn't see him on every play. When I did see him he looked very active. I would like to less of Jones.

[86WARD]

Chickillo looked much more active and involved than Jones did and his name was called more often by the announcers.

[Shoes]

I don't see that in Coates at all. All I see is him running down the sideline and possibly making the catch. I don't see any flashes of a number 2. I see more flashes in Rogers than I do Coates.

Agreed, I'm not sold on Coates at all. I just hope Rodges toe injury doesn't cause him to miss much time.

[86WARD]

According to PFF, David DeCastro allowed six total pressures with two sacks, two hits and two QB hurries and a 42.2 game grade.

[Craic]

According to PFF, David DeCastro allowed six total pressures with two sacks, two hits and two QB hurries and a 42.2 game grade.

That's interesting. It almost sounds as though he was covering for another lineman. Did Gilbert slip over to help J. James block? If Pouncey had to pay more attention to his left with Foster injured, that might make sense. Just don't often see him have that bad a day, even with mitigating circumstances.

[pczach]

That's interesting. It almost sounds as though he was covering for another lineman. Did Gilbert slip over to help J. James block? If Pouncey had to pay more attention to his left with Foster injured, that might make sense. Just don't often see him have that bad a day, even with mitigating circumstances.

On one of his sacks allowed, he left his man for Gilbert's man running free for the quarterback. He tried to block the more immediate threat.

That being said, he still didn't play well in this game. It's the worst game I've seen from him in a while.

[Craic]

On one of his sacks allowed, he left his man for Gilbert's man running free for the quarterback. He tried to block the more immediate threat.

That being said, he still didn't play well in this game. It's the worst game I've seen from him in a while.

I'll be honest, I didn't watch the game that closely. Too frustrated with the network/NFL and their stupid "Won't switch over to the other game" rule. Then, as I said in a previous post, they cut away after the third quarter.

[Craic]

So, to keep this thread going . . . what did we learn today (Yesterday)?

1. The team can respond to adversity. What a way to come back from the previous game. I wasn't sure what team would show up, I never thought that Steelers team would show up.

2. Maybe Haley has learned how to share? I liked the fact that I saw D.Will on the field carrying the ball a few times throughout the game. Keeps his head in the game more (not that it's been a real problem, but still . . .) and gives Bell a chance to stay healthy possibly. (Tired bodies get injured easier).

3. Artie Burns has some learning to do, but I'm beginning to see why he was drafted by the Steelers. He had one defended pass where he got burned, and then out of sheer athleticism, put on the afterburners and caught up and knocked the ball out as it arrived.

4. Cockerill is slowly turning into a solid CB.

5. Coates looked like he took a decent stop forward last night. He's still catching the ball with his body to much, IMO, but I like what I saw from him last night—not just being a long-ball receiver.

6. TE - I don't know about blocking, but Grimble's catching ability is starting to look pretty good. If I get time, I want to go back and check out what he did on run plays.

[ALLD]

The formula for winning is to take what the other team gives up. Let Ben choose the receiver and avoid locking on AB all of the time. Bell looks like the best all around RB in the NFL. He is simply a yards generating machine. Everybody showed up to play and the concentration level was high.

[tube517]

What I learned is Le'Veon Bell takes this team to a different dimension. He's good enough (actually great) to split wide as a receiver. He can also block.

DeAngelo is a good RB who can block his ass off. He's no Bell in terms of multipurpose but having both on the field makes the defense dizzy.

[Edman]

I think we all know at this point since the Baltimore playoff game two years ago that Le'Veon Bell takes the Steelers offense to another stratosphere. When he's gone, it's felt all through the offense.

DeAngelo is great at what he does, but the Offense is merely solid when he's in there. Bell turns the Offense great.

[tube517]

I think we all know at this point since the Baltimore playoff game two years ago that Le'Veon Bell takes the Steelers offense to another stratosphere. When he's gone, it's felt all through the offense.

DeAngelo is great at what he does, but the Offense is merely solid when he's in there. Bell turns the Offense great.

I'm happy they figured out some ways to put them both on the field. It doesn't have to be every down but trying to account for all of these guys??? Haley has to be beating up couches and breaking down rental walls with excitement!

[Craic]

Another thing I learned, or, I should say, remembered: Bell's one weakness is his lack of break-away speed. He doesn't quite have the top-gear to shift into in the open, which lets him get tracked down from behind and not finish the big runs in the endzone. On a scale of 1-10 for concerns, it's about a 2 for me, but it is something I remembered watching him last night.

[pczach]

Another thing I learned, or, I should say, remembered: Bell's one weakness is his lack of break-away speed. He doesn't quite have the top-gear to shift into in the open, which lets him get tracked down from behind and not finish the big runs in the endzone. On a scale of 1-10 for concerns, it's about a 2 for me, but it is something I remembered watching him last night.

Nope...he's not an elite burner, but he is off the charts in every other category of rating a running back.

He had 144 yards on just 18 carries, and 178 yards from scrimmage.

He helps his offensive line by being patient and setting up the defense to maximize every carry, and he allows them the time to position themselves to make blocks with how he positions himself to the line of scrimmage. He then explodes through the line and has the power to steamroll and drag players with him.

He consistently got every inch possible each time he touched the ball.

He stoned every blitz in pass protection.

He lined up at WR and was able to consistently beat defenses with his route running and superior hands.

His versatility gives the offense an advantage whether they run or pass.

The guy can do anything. You saw it last night.

He's not even 100% yet. He's going to improve and gain even more confidence with his knee.

He is a special talent. I can live with the lack of world class speed.

[steelreserve]

1. If you actually try to get pressure on the QB, you will probably get some pressure on the QB. This helped the defense tremendously.

2. Coates does seem to be developing. Although I think also the Chiefs' secondary was having a horrible, horrible night and that rookie CB they have probably isn't ready to be a starter. So my optimism is still cautious. Also DHB >>>>Wheaton.

3. Hargreaves looks like a badass when he is on the field. Not sure why he's had such a minor role to date, but hopefully we see more of him.

4. Either Gilbert and Foster are completely disposable, or Munchak really is that awesome. Probably the second one.