What Did We Learn Today?

[Craic]

Before we get started . . .

PLEASE - IF YOU WANT TO SPEW, DO IT IN ANOTHER THREAD. I'm looking for intelligent football discussion, not FIRez dA COACHES rants. Got a problem with the coaching... lay it out, specifically without broad sweeps and what-ifs. In other words, I'd like to get into some good, series critique which means laying aside emotion and truly evaluating what we saw, good and bad.
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Okay, so, what did we learn today. For me . . .

1. Timmons is a lot more important to this team that most people thought.

Did anyone else notice the minute he was gone from the middle, the run game just ate us up? I know there's a few around here that aren't impressed with him, but I think he's much bigger in the defense than we're giving him credit for.

2. Ben still isn't the consistent QB we hoped he was.

No, I'm not pinning the whole loss on Ben, there were drops that literally hit guys in the hands. But I also noticed at least a half-dozen balls sailing over heads while WRs were in route--simple overthrows. I also noticed at least once or twice Ben could have stepped up and jogged for a FD, but he made the bad decision to move backwards or sideways, or once, just throw the ball away rather than running 4 yards and sliding. He was off last week as well, so I'm beginning to wonder what's going on. Hope it's just a 2 game stretch of "oops!" and nothing more than that (And I also reserve the right to put some blame on young WRs).

3. Bend but don't break defense, broke today.

As was asked last week, what happens when the bend but don't break defense, breaks. You got your answer. Now, as to why the defense broke today . . . I'm less convinced they broke due to scheme as I am they broke because the offense couldn't keep them off the field at all, and they got tired. Real tired. Add to that injures, and Viola! Nevertheless, they're going to be licking wounds for a couple of days.

4. Certain CBs are coming along.

Artie had another defended pass today and Cockrill had a nice break up in the endzone. I think sometime this season, we may see Cockrill develop into a decent to good CB and become pleased with Artie's play. Yeah, he still has mistakes, but at this point, I'm more excited by the things he's doing right, than the things he's doing wrong.

5. AB doesn't look as though he's having fun out there.

I don't know what it is, but AB just didn't look special today. Yeah, he had a good day, but it really felt like he was, well . . . not mailing it in, because he put in hard work, but something's happening behind the scenes possibly. Maybe that's the problem with the whole offense right now. Who knows?

6. We are 2-1 with no AFC losses.

Despite how bad this feels, a quick glance at the board shows we're still very ahead of the game. Browns and Bengals are already trailing by two games (tie breaker with Bengals). Ravens are only 1 game ahead of us, and we play them, twice still. Somehow, I feel like we're going to be in control of our destiny for quite a long time.

[Shoes]

I think IF the Steelers keep J. Jones after this season he should be a backup. I believe he works hard but he just doesn't have it. Pass rushers are still a big need for this defense.


This kind of play from Jones is very common!

[tube517]

5. AB doesn't look as though he's having fun out there.

I don't know what it is, but AB just didn't look special today. Yeah, he had a good day, but it really felt like he was, well . . . not mailing it in, because he put in hard work, but something's happening behind the scenes possibly. Maybe that's the problem with the whole offense right now. Who knows?

It may seem that way but they were behind all game and he didn't look like his usual mood.

The ass whooping was felt in all aspects of the game.

[Mojouw]

The defense broke because it lost its middle before the end of the second quarter. Timmons, Shazier, and Golden. That just gutted whatever gameplan that Butler might have had.

Combine that with no outside pass rush - and well it just isn't surprising. What kind of gameplan to stop screens and misdirections can you implement on the fly with LJ Fort, Vince Illiams, and Sean Davis all having zero reps working together?

- - - Updated - - -

On offense we learned that Ben is still learning the tendencies of his new targets. He has no chemistry with anyone besides AB on broken plays. Maybe Coates.

Also Jesse James just can't block worth a darn.

[Edman]

The defense broke because it lost its middle before the end of the second quarter. Timmons, Shazier, and Golden. That just gutted whatever gameplan that Butler might have had.

This. There's only so much you do when you lose your best players.

Ryan Shazier is tough enough, but Lawrence Timmons means more to this defense than people give him credit for, and Robert Golden clearly isn't some run of the mill chump change safety.

[Mojouw]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/09...efense-sunday/

this is article has all the gory details. Think that Shazier, Timmons, and Golden might have had an impact not that?

[Steeldude]

Maybe fans here will realize you need a pass rush. The allow every play and pray for a T/O defense does not work.

[Craic]

Maybe fans here will realize you need a pass rush. The allow every play and pray for a T/O defense does not work.

No one's been saying we don't need one, rather, the absolute emphasis on it without considering the context of rookies, player personnel in general, and the options available to us otherwise is a very limited POV. Nevertheless, I'm not sure what your comment has to do with anything asked in this thread about the team.

[Steeldude]

No one's been saying we don't need one, rather, the absolute emphasis on it without considering the context of rookies, player personnel in general, and the options available to us otherwise is a very limited POV. Nevertheless, I'm not sure what your comment has to do with anything asked in this thread about the team.

Learned the team needs a pass rush.

[hawaiiansteeler]

Learned the team needs a pass rush.

without a doubt we need a better pass rush, but how?

Jarvis Jones never developed into the player we thought was worthy of a first round draft choice, Bud Dupree is injured, Deebo is in the twilight of his career, and our DL just aren't getting to the QB.

Keith Butler needs to do some serious re-evaluating imo, what he's doing now just isn't working and perhaps we don't have the necessary players.

I believe we have to draft another pass-rushing OLB in the first two rounds of next year's draft...

[Mojouw]

Much of this argument assumes a static status quo. That's a poor premise to begin from. Burns and Davis have tackling issues that are extending drives and leading to points. Either those guys are Antwon Blake 2.0 or they can be "coached up" (another conversation entirely) and the issues resolve for the positive over the next several games.

Another example is that the center of the defense did not hold today. When is the next time both ILBs and a safety go out in the same game? The receivers will get better with every game rep. 9-7 or 10-6 usually makes the playoffs. I do not care how good this team is in week 3, I care how good they are in week 12+.

The pass rush is a disaster right now. That's extremely concerning. But saying the answer is to run Harrison out there 50 snaps a game is foolish. Even if he is the best edge rusher on the roster what good is sapping his legs by week 6?

The biggest question for me us the defenses dependence on Shazier to be a sideline to sideline answer for the screen and misdirection game. We all saw what happens when he can't fill that role.

Similarly much of Haleys short passing game is dependent on Tes and hbacks blocking on the edge for short YAC driven routes for AB and whoever comes out of the slot or that 3 receiver stack that both Arians and Haley are obsessed with.

Am I watching different games from everyone else?

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[Shoes]

Why not try Gravedigger on the edge?

[Mojouw]

We also painfully learned that Feeney not being able to contribute sucks balls. Anyone else think that his athleticism might be an amazing assets in dub packages filling a Duane Buchannon role at the linebacker level against screens and backs in the flat? I believe they had him targeted for that and it didn't work out.

It also sucks that shamarko is stupid because he profiles as a destroyer of screens and obliterator of running backs.


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[Mojouw]

One more thing. The beer might be talking but we learned a great deal about Chickfilet, Moats, and Hargrave.

Moats is a replacement level backer. I think he would be better inside as a two down thumper. But Fort and Williams already fill that role so he is miscast as an edge rusher.

Chickfilet and Hargrave are simply not ready for primetime yet. Hargrave is a rookie and Chickfilet is a tweeter. He needs to play too light to be quick and the isn't bulky enough to overpower tackles.


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[BlackAndGold]

We kinda knew is wasn't a strength but, the whole OLB position sucks.

Jarvis? back up player
Moats? same as Jarvis
Harrison? for a 38 year old he can play, but he isn't a starter.
Chickillo? He should be nicknamed "Mr. August" since he's been noting but hype so far.

You won't be playing in February if you can't get pressure on the QB, it's just the truth.


I won't be shocked if the same outcome happens against Kansas City next week.

[teegre]

I believe we have to draft another pass-rushing OLB in the first two rounds of next year's draft...

Uh oh... people will lose their minds if that happens.

[86WARD]

The defense broke because it lost its middle before the end of the second quarter. Timmons, Shazier, and Golden. That just gutted whatever gameplan that Butler might have had.

Combine that with no outside pass rush - and well it just isn't surprising. What kind of gameplan to stop screens and misdirections can you implement on the fly with LJ Fort, Vince Illiams, and Sean Davis all having zero reps working together?

- - - Updated - - -

On offense we learned that Ben is still learning the tendencies of his new targets. He has no chemistry with anyone besides AB on broken plays. Maybe Coates.

Also Jesse James just can't block worth a darn.

Shazier wasn't really stopping Sproles when he was in there...just saying...

[teegre]

What we learned...

1. Heath is sorely missed.
BB had James wide open with a clear path for a touchdown, but BB threw it too far to the right. That is a theme that I've seen: BB doesn't have the timing down with the receivers (whereas, he KNEW where Heath would be). Also, on a third-&-seven, Rogers caught a pass, needed 2 more yards, and James was right in front of him (by design). James missed the block, and Rogers was stopped one yard short. Heath makes that block 10 out of 10 times.

That is a touchdown and a first down missed (replaced by two punts). Speaking of which...

2. Wheaton needs reps/confidence.
He hadn't played in a month... and it showed. He dropped a touchdown and first down (replaced by a missed FG and a punt).

3. Momentum is almost as important as a good gameplan.
If Wheaton catches that TD, this is an entirely different game. The subsequent blocked FG did not help matters. From that point on, it felt like the offense was just waiting for something bad to happen: D-Will dropped a pass or two, AB seemed to not get the necessary yards to keep drives going, and the O-line played timid.

On the defensive side, the Sproles run was the back-breaker. From that point on, everything that the Eagles did seemed to work (because, it seemed like the Steelers expected the Eagles to have success).

[tube517]

Shazier wasn't really stopping Sproles when he was in there...just saying...

Tomlin mentioned "MCL re-aggravated". I don't really like hearing that.

- - - Updated - - -

What we learned...

1. Heath is sorely missed.
BB had James wide open with a clear path for a touchdown, but BB threw it too far to the right. That is a theme that I've seen: BB doesn't have the timing down with the receivers (whereas, he KNEW where Heath would be). Also, on a third-&-seven, Rogers caught a pass, needed 2 more yards, and James was right in front of him (by design). James missed the block, and Rogers was stopped one yard short. Heath makes that block 10 out of 10 times.

That is a touchdown and a first down missed (replaced by two punts). Speaking of which...

2. Wheaton needs reps/confidence.
He hadn't played in a month... and it showed. He dropped a touchdown and first down (replaced by a missed FG and a punt).

3. Momentum is almost as important as a good gameplan.
If Wheaton catches that TD, this is an entirely different game. The subsequent blocked FG did not help matters. From that point on, it felt like the offense was just waiting for something bad to happen: D-Will dropped a pass or two, AB seemed to not get the necessary yards to keep drives going, and the O-line played timid.

On the defensive side, the Sproles run was the back-breaker. From that point on, everything that the Eagles did seemed to work (because, it seemed like the Steelers expected the Eagles to have success).

I wonder if we see more DHB. He can block and we don't know Eli's injury.

[Steelerschik]

I learned that the Steelers can still look bipolar week to week, as long as they make the POs I'll accept that. I have also learned that our defense isn't as good as I thought they were, despite reading some very knowledgeable posts from people on here...I thought they might be wrong, they weren't. I also learned that Boz isn't invincible and can have an off day too. In my heart I think they'll struggle here and there, but I think in the end they'll be in the mix of things. I hope they gel, I hope injuries won't haunt us cause I know our depth isn't great. But I know no matter what, my faith in this team runs deep and I learned that no matter how shitty they look, I'll be picking them to win the next week any way and I'll continue to bitch, moan and groan when they play like the fucktards they were yesterday.

[lotas]

What we learned...

1. Heath is sorely missed.
BB had James wide open with a clear path for a touchdown, but BB threw it too far to the right. That is a theme that I've seen: BB doesn't have the timing down with the receivers (whereas, he KNEW where Heath would be). Also, on a third-&-seven, Rogers caught a pass, needed 2 more yards, and James was right in front of him (by design). James missed the block, and Rogers was stopped one yard short. Heath makes that block 10 out of 10 times.

That is a touchdown and a first down missed (replaced by two punts). Speaking of which...

2. Wheaton needs reps/confidence.
He hadn't played in a month... and it showed. He dropped a touchdown and first down (replaced by a missed FG and a punt).

3. Momentum is almost as important as a good gameplan.
If Wheaton catches that TD, this is an entirely different game. The subsequent blocked FG did not help matters. From that point on, it felt like the offense was just waiting for something bad to happen: D-Will dropped a pass or two, AB seemed to not get the necessary yards to keep drives going, and the O-line played timid.

On the defensive side, the Sproles run was the back-breaker. From that point on, everything that the Eagles did seemed to work (because, it seemed like the Steelers expected the Eagles to have success).

I'm with you, Teeg. It had something to do with the energy, which affects mindset and confidence, which in turn reinforces the negative energy and leads to something like the 3rd quarter meltdown.

I already had that feeling of "Oh boy, here we go" going in to the game based on our past difficulties with the Eagles. After Wheaton dropped that pass and the FG was blocked I knew it wasn't going to be a good game. Hell, that happened in the early-mid 1st quarter and in my mind I already felt it was out of reach, that the energy was going to swing and not come back.

I think this loss is as much on the Eagles' success as it is the Steelers shortcomings. The Eagles absolutely dominated in their performance, you could see Ben was rattled because he had nowhere to go with the ball on his drop back, and by the time he looked for an alternate option the pass rush was in his face. Did you see how well the DB's were covering our WR's, they just couldn't get separation.

Learn from the loss and move on. Most importantly this squad needs to get their fluid cohesiveness back, and regain their confidence to know they can take control of the game and swing the energy when they need to. The defense needs to register a few sacks and TO's in the next few weeks.

Le'Veon Bell brings a spark back to this offense that can help reignite them. I can't wait to watch Bell again, this offense is just in another tier altogether with him in. The defense doesn't get to just sit back and swarm the WR's like they did today.

[tube517]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/09...eagles-week-2/

[stillers4me]

Sometimes QB's and teams have really, really good games. Sometimes they have really, really bad games.

Carson Wentz and the Eagles had a really, really good day on the same day the Ben and the Steelers had a really, really bad day.

Neither are likely as good or as bad as they appeared to be yesterday.

Moving on to next week.

[EzraTank]

I think IF the Steelers keep J. Jones after this season he should be a backup. I believe he works hard but he just doesn't have it. Pass rushers are still a big need for this defense.


This kind of play from Jones is very common!

I totally agree with this. If his team just got ONE guy like James Harrison in his prime (think Von Miller) that could get up field and put pressure on the pocket the whole defense changes. If you have a guy like that then teams will be forced to double them or keep a TE/RB out of passing and other guys open up to get there.

This team is missing ONE player on defense and that's it.

[steelerdude15]

I think IF the Steelers keep J. Jones after this season he should be a backup. I believe he works hard but he just doesn't have it. Pass rushers are still a big need for this defense.


This kind of play from Jones is very common!

The Steelers need to do the right thing and not resign him after this year. You're right, Jarvis doesn't have it. He can't seal the edge against the run, break off blockers to make a play, and can't use his rush skills to get by an offensive linemen. He shouldn't even be starting.

- - - Updated - - -

Tomlin mentioned "MCL re-aggravated". I don't really like hearing that.

I think Ryan finished with 2 tackles. If he's having MCL issues, I would imagine he wouldn't be that effective. Might have to go with Vince until Ryan is healed.

[Moose]

As Ben said, " uh, we stunk."

[SteelMayhem72]

shazier cant stay healthy so he needs to go...jarvis jones just sucks and needs to go...if you dont contribute in a positive way then you dont need to be on the field. Ive always been a fan of timmons and he is the leader on defense and it now shows...hes a good ball player imho.

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[SteelMayhem72]

im thinking we may have a similar outcome with KC knowing peterson came from there and there styles on offense are very similar. Misdirection plays have been a problem for us the last several years...we over pursue and nobody to cover the back side...they better get a handle on that cause that is a huge blueprint against our Defense

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[DesertSteel]

We learned that the Eagles are a much better team than the Steelers.

[Dwinsgames]

the only way IMO you can get a pass rush with the current group of players is to put rookies on an island and hope the pass rush gets there quickly enough because if they do not we will be burnt deep and burn a lot ..

this isnt a new problem , we are just noticing it more because the front 3 are not getting it done in the pass rush department ( not that they where ever intended to do so in a 3-4 alignment ) but they did out of necessity last year ...

Wentz is not a good barometer of a pass rush though because even with a great pass rush we wouldn't have touched him much , he gets the ball out as quick or quicker than just about anyone ...