2016 South Side Questions: When Will Bending Become Breaking?

[polamalubeast]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/09...come-breaking/

[Hawkman]

Pretty useless article as far as I'm concerned.

[Mojouw]

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/2016/opp.htm

The pass defense needs to be put in the context that the Steelers and the Chargers have faced more pass attempts than anyone else in the league.

The 2016 Steelers offense is going to make the defense look bad. What do I mean? Teams are going to get behind by 2+ scores (between the offensive output and the fact that you can't run on this team). They are going to go pass wacky. It will make the defense look bad on paper using yardage stats when they face 45-55 pass attempts per week. Additionally, remember when teams used to onside kick against the Manning Colts during the 1st quarter? They knew they weren't stopping them, so they abandoned their traditional offense and went right into shoot-out mode. Same thing will happen if the Steelers stay healthy this year.

[Edman]

Bend will Break when defenders miss tackles. Like Artie Burns yesterday. He makes that tackle on Bernard, Cincy bleeds more clock. And likely doesn't score a TD.

[steelreserve]

As soon as we face a top-tier offense, or merely one that doesn't fortuitously choke in the red zone. We need a goddamn pass rush, and the first part of that is actually trying to rush the passer. It's like since Dupree is injured, we're afraid to send more than four guys, or use any formation that doesn't telegraph EXACTLY which four guys will be rushing. Give me a break - he wasn't that good, at least not yet.

Also, anyone who thinks it was a missed call when Golden shoved their TE out of bounds is a moron. It's a catch if you get both feet/one knee down first and THEN fall out of bounds. If you land on your side and your whole body is out of bounds except your one knee, it's out of bounds. Just so we're clear on that.

[polamalubeast]

As soon as we face a top-tier offense, or merely one that doesn't fortuitously choke in the red zone. We need a goddamn pass rush, and the first part of that is actually trying to rush the passer. It's like since Dupree is injured, we're afraid to send more than four guys, or use any formation that doesn't telegraph EXACTLY which four guys will be rushing. Give me a break - he wasn't that good, at least not yet.

Also, anyone who thinks it was a missed call when Golden shoved their TE out of bounds is a moron. It's a catch if you get both feet/one knee down first and THEN fall out of bounds. If you land on your side and your whole body is out of bounds except your one knee, it's out of bounds. Just so we're clear on that.

The Bengals are a top tier offense.....

[steelreserve]

The Bengals are a top tier offense.....

An overrated quarterback, one good receiver and a question-mark running game? Yeah, I guess they're top-tier, just like Washington was last week.

[polamalubeast]

An overrated quarterback, one good receiver and a question-mark running game? Yeah, I guess they're top-tier, just like Washington was last week.

Name me 10 offenses better than the Bengals?

[steelreserve]

Name me 10 offenses better than the Bengals?

No. Even if I did, you would just argue that they weren't.

Fact is, they're an OK or maybe a pretty-good offense that's prone to choking - in fact, NOTORIOUS for choking - and has been for years. Every year they come out highly rated on paper and are disappointing in practice.

[Mojouw]

An overrated quarterback, one good receiver and a question-mark running game? Yeah, I guess they're top-tier, just like Washington was last week.

Cincy was 7th in points scored last year - only 4 behind the Steelers who were 4th. Washington was #10.

We can make all the subjective evaluations we want to, but the #'s show that in 2015 both the Redskins and the Bengals fielded potent offenses. That being said, it is pretty clear that the Redskins have started to unravel early in the year. But the Bengals put up yards and points on a good Jets team in week 1.

[teegre]

Cincy was 7th in points scored last year

Since when are "points scored" actually an indicator of how good an offense is???

[Hawkman]

I'm sick of the " when we face an elite" or "top tier" offense, we will be exposed. Please! Who besides NE, would that be? NYG, Dallas, Philly, Baltimore, Jets, KC, Dolphins, Bills, or the Browns? Which ones of those teams have significantly better offenses than the Bungles?

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Since when are "points scored" actually an indicator of how good an offense is???

Didn't you mean to throw the sarcasm face with that?

[pczach]

I'm sick of the " when we face an elite" or "top tier" offense, we will be exposed. Please! Who besides NE, would that be? NYG, Dallas, Philly, Baltimore, Jets, KC, Dolphins, Bills, or the Browns? Which ones of those teams have significantly better offenses than the Bungles?

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Didn't you mean to throw the sarcasm face with that?

I don't think he thought it was necessary.

The Steelers just defeated two teams that were top 10 in scoring last year, and fans are still looking for ways to crucify the defense.

There are fans still ripping Cockrell! All he did was folow AJ Green all over the field, and gave up two catches for 38 yards. Last week he allowed a whopping 34 yards, but he was called for pass interference so he is obviously a bum. After watching Blake give up catches and yards like the samples server in Sam's Club, fans should be singing his praises.....not criticizing him.

Such is life in Steelers fandom.

[steelreserve]

I'm sick of the " when we face an elite" or "top tier" offense, we will be exposed. Please! Who besides NE, would that be? NYG, Dallas, Philly, Baltimore, Jets, KC, Dolphins, Bills, or the Browns? Which ones of those teams have significantly better offenses than the Bungles?

Proving my point exactly. If I were to say the Bengals are not a top-tier offense, it would be dismissed out of hand.

Fact is, they did not look very impressive yesterday, and it did not look like it was because of anything in particular that our defense did. Part of it was probably that our defense got helped by the conditions (remember, our own elite QB also looked like shit for a large chunk of the game), and part of it looked like average players on their offense making average plays at key times.

Please, tell me, what specifically did we do that "shut down" their offense? Not great coverage, not great pressure. Well, what does that leave? Good luck?

[steelreserve]

I don't think he thought it was necessary.

The Steelers just defeated two teams that were top 10 in scoring last year, and fans are still looking for ways to crucify the defense.

There are fans still ripping Cockrell! All he did was folow AJ Green all over the field, and gave up two catches for 38 yards. Last week he allowed a whopping 34 yards, but he was called for pass interference so he is obviously a bum. After watching Blake give up catches and yards like the samples server in Sam's Club, fans should be singing his praises.....not criticizing him.

Such is life in Steelers fandom.

Yes, yes, typical Steelers fans, only ever complaining .... blah blah blah. God forbid anyone should have an opinion other than everything's great. Yes, we won - every facet of the game must have been perfect.

[Born2Steel]

The Steelers defense took away every Bengal weapon except Bernard. Who else for the Bengals offense had a "good" game? Was the pass rush weak, or did we dare let Andy throw? What were Cincy's rushing stats? Have to look at the entire picture, not just pick and choose to make your opinion seem valid. Is AJ Green an elite WR in this league? Well, he had 2 catches. He did much more against Revis. The Bengals offense is not as good as last season though. They lost 2 WRs that were good role players and contributed plenty. That fact doesn't mean they are now a bad offense either. We did what we had to do to win the game. Job well done.

[Hawkman]

Proving my point exactly. If I were to say the Bengals are not a top-tier offense, it would be dismissed out of hand.

Fact is, they did not look very impressive yesterday, and it did not look like it was because of anything in particular that our defense did. Part of it was probably that our defense got helped by the conditions (remember, our own elite QB also looked like shit for a large chunk of the game), and part of it looked like average players on their offense making average plays at key times.

Please, tell me, what specifically did we do that "shut down" their offense? Not great coverage, not great pressure. Well, what does that leave? Good luck?

...and you completely missed my point! I want to know what offense on that list, other than NE is more top tier than the Bengals. I never said anything about shutting them down. Please point out where I said anything about that!!
I think with our schedule, NE is the only team that we will have real trouble with from a defensive standpoint. Hopefully the offense will be stout and we just out score them.

[Mojouw]

Proving my point exactly. If I were to say the Bengals are not a top-tier offense, it would be dismissed out of hand.

Fact is, they did not look very impressive yesterday, and it did not look like it was because of anything in particular that our defense did. Part of it was probably that our defense got helped by the conditions (remember, our own elite QB also looked like shit for a large chunk of the game), and part of it looked like average players on their offense making average plays at key times.

Please, tell me, what specifically did we do that "shut down" their offense? Not great coverage, not great pressure. Well, what does that leave? Good luck?

That's easy:

1. The front 7 totally shut down the running game of the Bengals. 46 yards on 18 carries. That is 2.5 yards per carry. That is ridiculous good. This forced the Bengals to pass in bad conditions. This is a good thing.
2. The DBs took away deep routes and with about 4-5 exceptions did not give up "chunk" plays down the middle. This forced Dalton to go short to his TEs and his backs.
3. Whatever they did - they removed AJ Green from the game. Did anyone expect this secondary to erase one of the most threatening WRs in the league? This is a good thing that the defense actually did.

Here look at this table: http://www.pro-football-reference.co...rections::none
Bengals only tried 9 passes that can be classified as "deep" and they hit on 6 of them. That means of 54 pass attempts - 5. 4. The defense forced Dalton to go short to medium on 45 of them. That is pretty good. It keeps the play in front of you, forces teams to string together multiple plays to beat you, etc. etc. We all know the drill.

For better or worse, this is what this defense does right now. Stops the run. Takes away deep passes. Keeps things in front of them and tackles the catch. Is it pretty? Nope. Does it look like other Steelers defenses? Nope. Do I necessarily like it? Nope. But to argue that the defense played no active role in "winning" or "stopping" the other team both weeks is just flying in the face of every observable fact that we, as fans, have access to.

Do I agree with you that Brady et al, and say a big WR with a QB who has no fear throwing into coverage (say Newton to Benjamin) has a pretty good chance of tearing through this defense like a hot knife through butter? Yes.

But until that happens, to deny that the gameplan and execution in the first two weeks had no role in the Steelers wins is just not a fact and evidence based logical argument.

[Hawkman]

I don't think he thought it was necessary.

The Steelers just defeated two teams that were top 10 in scoring last year, and fans are still looking for ways to crucify the defense.

There are fans still ripping Cockrell! All he did was folow AJ Green all over the field, and gave up two catches for 38 yards. Last week he allowed a whopping 34 yards, but he was called for pass interference so he is obviously a bum. After watching Blake give up catches and yards like the samples server in Sam's Club, fans should be singing his praises.....not criticizing him.

Such is life in Steelers fandom.

I was just laughing, because points scored is the most important stat........as long as more points are scored than given up.

[Mojouw]

Since when are "points scored" actually an indicator of how good an offense is???

Sorry. I forgot that facts and logic no longer matter. If we feel something is true - it obviously is.

[st33lersguy]

It's week 2. Hopefully the pass defense surrenders fewer yardage as the season goes on. Given that they are surrendering 16 points and the offense has been doing great so far, it is not a concern. It will be a concern come playoff time if they are still hemorrhaging over 350 yards passing a game

[Hawkman]

That's easy:

1. The front 7 totally shut down the running game of the Bengals. 46 yards on 18 carries. That is 2.5 yards per carry. That is ridiculous good. This forced the Bengals to pass in bad conditions. This is a good thing.
2. The DBs took away deep routes and with about 4-5 exceptions did not give up "chunk" plays down the middle. This forced Dalton to go short to his TEs and his backs.
3. Whatever they did - they removed AJ Green from the game. Did anyone expect this secondary to erase one of the most threatening WRs in the league? This is a good thing that the defense actually did.

Here look at this table: http://www.pro-football-reference.co...rections::none
Bengals only tried 9 passes that can be classified as "deep" and they hit on 6 of them. That means of 54 pass attempts - 5. 4. The defense forced Dalton to go short to medium on 45 of them. That is pretty good. It keeps the play in front of you, forces teams to string together multiple plays to beat you, etc. etc. We all know the drill.

For better or worse, this is what this defense does right now. Stops the run. Takes away deep passes. Keeps things in front of them and tackles the catch. Is it pretty? Nope. Does it look like other Steelers defenses? Nope. Do I necessarily like it? Nope. But to argue that the defense played no active role in "winning" or "stopping" the other team both weeks is just flying in the face of every observable fact that we, as fans, have access to.

Do I agree with you that Brady et al, and say a big WR with a QB who has no fear throwing into coverage (say Newton to Benjamin) has a pretty good chance of tearing through this defense like a hot knife through butter? Yes.

But until that happens, to deny that the gameplan and execution in the first two weeks had no role in the Steelers wins is just not a fact and evidence based logical argument.

Holding them to 4 of 16 on third down conversions was strong as well.

[Born2Steel]

That's easy:

1. The front 7 totally shut down the running game of the Bengals. 46 yards on 18 carries. That is 2.5 yards per carry. That is ridiculous good. This forced the Bengals to pass in bad conditions. This is a good thing.
2. The DBs took away deep routes and with about 4-5 exceptions did not give up "chunk" plays down the middle. This forced Dalton to go short to his TEs and his backs.
3. Whatever they did - they removed AJ Green from the game. Did anyone expect this secondary to erase one of the most threatening WRs in the league? This is a good thing that the defense actually did.

Here look at this table: http://www.pro-football-reference.co...rections::none
Bengals only tried 9 passes that can be classified as "deep" and they hit on 6 of them. That means of 54 pass attempts - 5. 4. The defense forced Dalton to go short to medium on 45 of them. That is pretty good. It keeps the play in front of you, forces teams to string together multiple plays to beat you, etc. etc. We all know the drill.

For better or worse, this is what this defense does right now. Stops the run. Takes away deep passes. Keeps things in front of them and tackles the catch. Is it pretty? Nope. Does it look like other Steelers defenses? Nope. Do I necessarily like it? Nope. But to argue that the defense played no active role in "winning" or "stopping" the other team both weeks is just flying in the face of every observable fact that we, as fans, have access to.

Do I agree with you that Brady et al, and say a big WR with a QB who has no fear throwing into coverage (say Newton to Benjamin) has a pretty good chance of tearing through this defense like a hot knife through butter? Yes.

But until that happens, to deny that the gameplan and execution in the first two weeks had no role in the Steelers wins is just not a fact and evidence based logical argument.

No fair using logic and facts.

[Hawkman]

No fair using logic and facts.

But that's what he does.

[Mojouw]

Yes, yes, typical Steelers fans, only ever complaining .... blah blah blah. God forbid anyone should have an opinion other than everything's great. Yes, we won - every facet of the game must have been perfect.

Far from it. This team has some worrying tendencies. Such as:

1. TE blocking in the pass game is problematic and inconsistent. Having a TE that blocks like an offensive tackle is how Haley gets all those talented WR's out into pass patterns. James, Grimble, Johnson, and whoever else struggling to do the same could become a limiter on the otherwise wide open playbook Haley wants to run.

2. Villenueva can be had in straight up one on one pass rush by anyone with more than league average talent. Doesn't mean AV can not or should not continue to function as the LT. Just means that Ben is going to take some shots from the blindside this season.

3. There is no pass rush out of those 3 and 4 man fronts. Maybe a bit of pocket pushing pressure, but not actual play altering pressure. In fact, the roster lacks an edge rusher of any ability to have an impact - MAYBE a healthy Dupree. Maybe. Harrison got no push. The more Chickfilet plays the more he just looks like a "try hard" guy without the pass rush moves to win one on one matchups against NFL tackles and alter a gameplan. That same comment is basically a pretty solid description of Arthur Moats and Jarvis Jones.

4. Despite the decent to pretty good play of the secondary this season, there are clearly no "playmakers" back there at this point. Mitchell is being held further back and in a stricter role, not roaming as much as he did last season. This keeps things in control, but means less random INTS and whatnot. Davis, Mitchell, and others may have the talent to make some plays, but they are still thinking a bit too much to let their talent take over. One truly hopes that Burns and Gilbert can fight their way onto the field and start making some actual plays on the ball. But who knows?

5. All the skill position players not named AB, DHB, and Deangelo Williams are raw and green as grass. Players are consistently not showing up where Ben expects them and are sometimes a bit slow to react to things. Also, the "broken plays" are not as smooth as usual. Hopefully this gets better with reps over the course of the season - but I would lie if I said I was not concerned about it.

Those are just off the top of my head.

[teegre]

I'm sick of the " when we face an elite" or "top tier" offense, we will be exposed. Please! Who besides NE, would that be? NYG, Dallas, Philly, Baltimore, Jets, KC, Dolphins, Bills, or the Browns? Which ones of those teams have significantly better offenses than the Bungles?

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Didn't you mean to throw the sarcasm face with that?

The NYGiants could be serious contenders, if their offenses and defenses gel. ODB, Cruz, & Shepard are as good a trio as there is in the league. Those high-priced defensive free agent are looking like a smart move (they held the Saints to nearly nothing).

If I were to predict a dark horse for representing the NFC, it would be them.


I'd rather look good and lose, than look bad and win.
--Sidney Deane

[polamalubeast]

It's week 2. Hopefully the pass defense surrenders fewer yardage as the season goes on. Given that they are surrendering 16 points and the offense has been doing great so far, it is not a concern. It will be a concern come playoff time if they are still hemorrhaging over 350 yards passing a game

Yesterday,it was on 54 pass attempts and 137 yards of the yards of Dalton was to their running back

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Yes, yes, typical Steelers fans, only ever complaining .... blah blah blah. God forbid anyone should have an opinion other than everything's great. Yes, we won - every facet of the game must have been perfect.

The problem is that you want this defense be dominant as in 2008....It will not happen but it does not mean we can not win.

[Craic]

I wonder how many people here over the last year and a half that are complaining about the yards given up . . . are the same people who, when the Steelers offense was piling up yards but not scoring a lot of points, were quick to yell, "Yards don't matter, only points!"

Personally, I think it's pretty obvious: we are playing zone. Period. And, in zone, teams can march up and down the middle of the field because the zones are somewhat large. But, when it gets into the redzone, the coverage zones shrink, making it easier to cover the area of responsibility. Why are we playing zone? We have a lot of young DBs and LBs that can run like the wind. Zone's more forgiving for mistakes than man coverage. Personally, I'm all for the idea until our CBs get some seasoning.

Oh, and I'll take the idea of trading FGs with TDs every day of the week. There's no reason we cannot win EVERY game that our defense holds the other team to under 21 points.

[pczach]

Yes, yes, typical Steelers fans, only ever complaining .... blah blah blah. God forbid anyone should have an opinion other than everything's great. Yes, we won - every facet of the game must have been perfect.

I didn't direct all my comments at you. I did reference your post in regard to teegre bringing up scoring offense as being indicative of who has a good offense. I then referenced Steelers fans in general. That's why I brought up Cockrell. You didn't bring him up or criticize him. I have been hearing and reading comments about him from a lot of Steelers fans and I commented on it.

To address what you said directly, there are some concerns with the team, but most of those concerns are due to players being suspended or young players that need some playing experience. They now have two wins in the books, and are that much closer to getting Bell back and the youngsters have that much more experience under their belts.

The defense has played well enough for them to win, and against the Bengals, they played very well.

Shazier is ridiculous when he's on the field. He makes plays that not many guys can make with pure speed and athleticism. He is turning into a dominant player before our eyes.

Cockrell is playing well, and the secondary in general has held its own. Did they solve everything, and am I ready to declare them a very good defense without fault?.....No.

The pass rush needs to improve, but I believe it will as the year goes on, and the philosophy changes due to a change in game plan. Right now, Butler has been rushing 3 or 4 and not blitzing much while dropping everybody into coverage. That is the current way they're playing. That doesn't mean they're going to continue to play that way for the rest of the year. As they get more experience at corner with Burns and Gilbert, they will probably be added into the rotation and get into the sub packages more, while also allowing the front seven to get more aggressive and for Butler to trust them to hold up behind them.

Hopefully, Dupree and Golson return around mid season, and they are able to strengthen the defense.

Has it been perfect? No

Has it been enough to win? Yes

Does the defense have a chance to continue to improve as the season goes on? Hell yes!

[steelreserve]

That's easy:

1. The front 7 totally shut down the running game of the Bengals. 46 yards on 18 carries. That is 2.5 yards per carry. That is ridiculous good. This forced the Bengals to pass in bad conditions. This is a good thing.
2. The DBs took away deep routes and with about 4-5 exceptions did not give up "chunk" plays down the middle. This forced Dalton to go short to his TEs and his backs.
3. Whatever they did - they removed AJ Green from the game. Did anyone expect this secondary to erase one of the most threatening WRs in the league? This is a good thing that the defense actually did.

Here look at this table: http://www.pro-football-reference.co...rections::none
Bengals only tried 9 passes that can be classified as "deep" and they hit on 6 of them. That means of 54 pass attempts - 5. 4. The defense forced Dalton to go short to medium on 45 of them. That is pretty good. It keeps the play in front of you, forces teams to string together multiple plays to beat you, etc. etc. We all know the drill.

For better or worse, this is what this defense does right now. Stops the run. Takes away deep passes. Keeps things in front of them and tackles the catch. Is it pretty? Nope. Does it look like other Steelers defenses? Nope. Do I necessarily like it? Nope. But to argue that the defense played no active role in "winning" or "stopping" the other team both weeks is just flying in the face of every observable fact that we, as fans, have access to.

Do I agree with you that Brady et al, and say a big WR with a QB who has no fear throwing into coverage (say Newton to Benjamin) has a pretty good chance of tearing through this defense like a hot knife through butter? Yes.

But until that happens, to deny that the gameplan and execution in the first two weeks had no role in the Steelers wins is just not a fact and evidence based logical argument.

See, THIS (and your subsequent follow-up) are the kind of breakdown I can really get behind. You have pretty much nailed what's working (and what's not) with the pass defense. Is it working for now? Yes. Do we have some major issues that we ought to be worried about and probably trying to fix? Hell yes we do.

In any case, that was much better than the standard dialogue:

"OMG SHUT UP, DEFENSE IS GREAT!"

"It was good enough to win that game, but I'm still worried about our pa--"

"WE WON SO SHUT UP! NUH!!!"

"Yeah, we won, but I don't think we'll win every game like that."

"WHAT? OBVIOUSLY WE WON THIS GAME SO IT'LL WORK EVERY GAME"

"But I don't think our opponents played very well, and that covered up --"

"NOWAY, THE BENGALS ARE AWESOME, LIKE THE MOST HIGH-POWERED FUTURE OFFENSE EVER! ANDY DALTON IS ELITE!!"

"But all year you make fun of how bad he is."

"HATER!!! OMG SPOILED STEELERS FANS!"

Anyway, you get the idea.