Cowher on Ben: 'This kid has a lot of upside'

[Dwinsgames]

It tells you right in the article that it is considered a promotion. Not just a raise in pay......A promotion. He got more responsibility and more power. The two go hand in hand.

If you can't see something that obvious, I don't know what else to say to you.

sorry but that is NOT what I read at all ...


"The Steelers have not explained the title change for Colbert, who has been the team\’s director of football operations since 2000, but it is believed to be a promotion."the red the author surmises and it is not fact based , the first part of the sentence is what he knows to be true the rest is a guess on his part nothing more nothing less .

I could easily get snippy about the comment in bold from your quoted statement but I won't stoop to that level in the interest of keeping this debate friendly and not resorting to insults but might might suggest brushing up on reading comprehension before calling anyone out in the future

surmises :
verb (used with object), surmised, surmising. 1. to think or infer without certain or strong evidence; conjecture; guess.

verb (used without object), surmised, surmising. 2. to conjecture or guess.

[pczach]

sorry but that is NOT what I read at all ...


"The Steelers have not explained the title change for Colbert, who has been the team\’s director of football operations since 2000, but it is believed to be a promotion."the red the author surmises and it is not fact based , the first part of the sentence is what he knows to be true the rest is a guess on his part nothing more nothing less .

I could easily get snippy about the comment in bold from your quoted statement but I won't stoop to that level in the interest of keeping this debate friendly and not resorting to insults but might might suggest brushing up on reading comprehension before calling anyone out in the future

surmises :
verb (used with object), surmised, surmising. 1. to think or infer without certain or strong evidence; conjecture; guess.

verb (used without object), surmised, surmising. 2. to conjecture or guess.

You're kidding, right?

I explain something to you and link an article, then I make the statement "If you can't see something that obvious, I don't know what else to say to you."

Then you say how you could get snippy with me over that? And then acting like you're bigger than me by not resorting to insults.....then make a comment about my reading comprehension. Really classy of you.

It's a good thing you wanted to keep it friendly.

I guess you aren't used to people not agreeing with you, huh? For crying out loud man.

[Dwinsgames]

You're kidding, right?

I explain something to you and link an article, then I make the statement "If you can't see something that obvious, I don't know what else to say to you."

Then you say how you could get snippy with me over that? And then acting like you're bigger than me by not resorting to insults.....then make a comment about my reading comprehension. Really classy of you.

It's a good thing you wanted to keep it friendly.

I guess you aren't used to people not agreeing with you, huh? For crying out loud man.

look man you linked an article where the writer is guessing and shows no proof to back it up then want to pass it on to me as fact and then tell me

{
Originally Posted by pczach
It tells you right in the article that it is considered a promotion. Not just a raise in pay......A promotion. He got more responsibility and more power. The two go hand in hand.

If you can't see something that obvious, I don't know what else to say to you.}

and I am the one that is wrong ...

ok whatever dude

[pczach]

sorry but that is NOT what I read at all ...


"The Steelers have not explained the title change for Colbert, who has been the team\’s director of football operations since 2000, but it is believed to be a promotion."the red the author surmises and it is not fact based , the first part of the sentence is what he knows to be true the rest is a guess on his part nothing more nothing less .

I could easily get snippy about the comment in bold from your quoted statement but I won't stoop to that level in the interest of keeping this debate friendly and not resorting to insults but might might suggest brushing up on reading comprehension before calling anyone out in the future

surmises :
verb (used with object), surmised, surmising. 1. to think or infer without certain or strong evidence; conjecture; guess.

verb (used without object), surmised, surmising. 2. to conjecture or guess.

I just linked the first story I came to. I figured that would be enough to show everyone reading what I was talking about.

How's this one: http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl-news...st-gm-position

Here's a link to a Steelers Universe thread. Maybe you've read it. http://www.steelersuniverse.com/foru...hp/t-9455.html

Read it and come to your own conclusions. They call it a promotion in the Sporting News. No guessing about it. That is, if you consider them to be a credible source.

[Mojouw]

From 1991-1998 or so, Donahuoe was unquestionably in charge and held the reins during draft day. His title was "Director of Football Operations". Then in the 1998-1999 period of time, Cowher started pushing for more power and control over the player personnel side of things. This fits with league-wide trends during the late 90's and early 2000's. Coaches with a track record were being handed the GM duties as well - thanks Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells! Even coaches with no track record were demanding that responsibility during the hiring process. Cowher clashed with Donahoe over this role and the Steelers gave Cowher the ball after the 1999 season.

They then bring in Colbert as "director of football operations" from 2000-2010. While, the Steelers never really make these things clear (I figure they wouldn't even have acknowledged that Omar Khan existed if they weren't forced to) - it is generally felt that Colbert's main role was to run player personnel during the season when Cowher would be focused on the season. During the off-season cycle, Colbert and Cowher would share power - with an unquantified favor toward Cowher.

Then in 2007 Tomlin is brought in. No change in title for Colbert. The 2007 draft happens - fairly good. It is clear that Tomlin put a stamp on that draft with the double dip at LB with Timmons and Woodley. Then the "uneven" (at best) to "utter horror show" of 2008-2009 goes down. Shockingly, Colbert gets quietly re-titled prior to the 2010 season. IN fact, if my memory serves, this change does not immediately even come to light. In fact, I believe it went largely unnoticed for some time. Maybe not, I can not really remember, but here it is in black and white:

From - http://prod.static.steelers.clubs.nf.../2012_MG_2.pdf (page 21/30)

"Colbert, 55, oversees the personnel area of the team and supervises the scouting staff. Among his duties, he is in charge of administering player acquisitions and transactions, including the NFL Draft, free agent signings and trades, and evaluating pro and college personnel. He also serves as the Steelers’ liaison with the NFL office and the other NFL teams on football matters."

In 2011 - same exact text - http://prod.static.steelers.clubs.nf...edia-Guide.pdf (page 43)

Unfortunately, I can not find the 2010 or 2009 media guides to see if the wording for Colbert changes. I can find that this is basically how the Steelers do announce promotions for most non player and coach personnel.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201108290216

So it does remain unclear as to what exactly has or has not changed with respect of how the draft process is managed. But I still remain convinced that the Steelers did not quietly re-title/promote Colbert just because it sounded good. Every time the Rooneys do something, it is for a reason. I believe, but can not prove that the reason is they determined that Colbert was in charge of the draft and the coaches were going to be involved and it would be a collaboration, but Colbert gets to break ties and make the final calls. I also believe this started in the 2010 draft and not before.

[pczach]

From 1991-1998 or so, Donahuoe was unquestionably in charge and held the reins during draft day. His title was "Director of Football Operations". Then in the 1998-1999 period of time, Cowher started pushing for more power and control over the player personnel side of things. This fits with league-wide trends during the late 90's and early 2000's. Coaches with a track record were being handed the GM duties as well - thanks Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells! Even coaches with no track record were demanding that responsibility during the hiring process. Cowher clashed with Donahoe over this role and the Steelers gave Cowher the ball after the 1999 season.

They then bring in Colbert as "director of football operations" from 2000-2010. While, the Steelers never really make these things clear (I figure they wouldn't even have acknowledged that Omar Khan existed if they weren't forced to) - it is generally felt that Colbert's main role was to run player personnel during the season when Cowher would be focused on the season. During the off-season cycle, Colbert and Cowher would share power - with an unquantified favor toward Cowher.

Then in 2007 Tomlin is brought in. No change in title for Colbert. The 2007 draft happens - fairly good. It is clear that Tomlin put a stamp on that draft with the double dip at LB with Timmons and Woodley. Then the "uneven" (at best) to "utter horror show" of 2008-2009 goes down. Shockingly, Colbert gets quietly re-titled prior to the 2010 season. IN fact, if my memory serves, this change does not immediately even come to light. In fact, I believe it went largely unnoticed for some time. Maybe not, I can not really remember, but here it is in black and white:

From - http://prod.static.steelers.clubs.nf.../2012_MG_2.pdf (page 21/30)

"Colbert, 55, oversees the personnel area of the team and supervises the scouting staff. Among his duties, he is in charge of administering player acquisitions and transactions, including the NFL Draft, free agent signings and trades, and evaluating pro and college personnel. He also serves as the Steelers’ liaison with the NFL office and the other NFL teams on football matters."

In 2011 - same exact text - http://prod.static.steelers.clubs.nf...edia-Guide.pdf (page 43)

Unfortunately, I can not find the 2010 or 2009 media guides to see if the wording for Colbert changes. I can find that this is basically how the Steelers do announce promotions for most non player and coach personnel.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201108290216

So it does remain unclear as to what exactly has or has not changed with respect of how the draft process is managed. But I still remain convinced that the Steelers did not quietly re-title/promote Colbert just because it sounded good. Every time the Rooneys do something, it is for a reason. I believe, but can not prove that the reason is they determined that Colbert was in charge of the draft and the coaches were going to be involved and it would be a collaboration, but Colbert gets to break ties and make the final calls. I also believe this started in the 2010 draft and not before.

Fans seem to mysteriously forget that Cowher was in a power struggle with Donahoe because he wanted more power. That struggle was known and reported about. Cowher won the power struggle and the Steelers moved on from Donahoe and hired Kevin Colbert. You explain the rest very well.

The Steelers didn't come out and say anything directly because that's no how they do things. But when it's all laid out in front of you, you can read between the lines and see how things really happened.

[polamalubeast]

Good thing that Cowher won the power struggle vs Donahoe.....The Draft was great after the firing of Donahoe.


And Donahoe was not very good in Buffalo....

[Mojouw]

Good thing that Cowher won the power struggle vs Donahoe.....The Draft was great after the firing of Donahoe.


And Donahoe was not very good in Buffalo....

True. I was by no means arguing the benefits or non-benefits of any given outcome. I was simply trying to lay out my own logic and where my opinions were coming from.

Bottom line it is almost impossible to determine where the credit and blame (basically they are the same thing - two sides of a coin) lies for the draft process. Many fans and analysts were highly concerned when Donahoe left. Did not have the dire consequences that many reasonable folks were afraid of.

Since about the early 1990's the Steelers have been one of the more effective teams in the draft process. It would be interesting to read an "insider's" take on how the organization operated during the period of say 1995-2010.

[Butch]

FWIW
I remember hearing all the time how Chuck had to be convinced not to draft Stallworth before he drafted both Swann and Lambert. I also heard that it took so long to convince him to draft Swann 1st that we almost lost him to the cowboys. Now that being said maybe things were different back then, or maybe Chuck had more pull the Bill??? IDK did things change that drastically that coach's don't get the say so now?

[zulater]

FWIW
I remember hearing all the time how Chuck had to be convinced not to draft Stallworth before he drafted both Swann and Lambert. I also heard that it took so long to convince him to draft Swann 1st that we almost lost him to the cowboys. Now that being said maybe things were different back then, or maybe Chuck had more pull the Bill??? IDK did things change that drastically that coach's don't get the say so now?

Noll also wanted to draft Robert Newhouse rather than Franco Harris. Having read a couple books on it, what I could gather is that Haley, Nunley, and Art Rooney Jr would put together their draft board and then they would proceed to sell their board to Noll and Dan Rooney. I'm not sure if Noll or Dan had final say? What I gathered though was that if Noll was dead set against someone that name would be tossed out. Also Noll and Dan went into it with an open enough mind that if the scouting department was really selling them on someone they could be swayed. Thus Noll was talked out of drafting Stallworth before the 4th round, he was talked into Lambert ( can't remember who, but Noll liked a different lb over Lambert) and of course he was talked out of Robert Newhouse.

[teegre]

Fire Noll!!!
Fire Cowher!!!
Fire Tomlin!!!

[zulater]

Coach Chuck Noll, disappointed that the cornerback he wanted, Willie Buchanon, had already been selected, wanted to pick Robert Newhouse, the little fullback from the University of Houston.

''Little guys, like Mike Garrett and Dickie Post, might have one great year,'' Art Rooney Jr., the Steelers' scouting director, told Noll. ''But you never see a little guy put two great years back to back. The big guys do. The big guys have longer and more consistent careers than the little guys.''

''All right,'' Noll said, going along with Rooney's choice of the 6-foot-2-inch, 225-pound back from Penn State. ''But you better be right.'' Glory Years Gone

http://www.nytimes.com/1982/08/18/sp...me-harris.html

It looks to me that the Steelers have a longstanding process that involves the coach the owner and the "scouting director/ personnel director that works. So instead of taking potshots at Cowher or Tomlin, or Noll before them do as the Steelers and use your brains and understand they all deserve credit for the good and they all deserve a share of the blame for the bad. Fact is for about 50 years there's been a helluva lot more good than bad. And Noll, Cowher, and Tomlin all deserve a great deal of credit of that. As do Art Rooney Jr, Bill Haley, Bill Nunn Jr, Tom Donohoe, and Kevin Colbert.

So what are you guys arguing about again?