Array title="Craic has a reputation beyond repute">
But, again, no one is saying he's a weak area. Everyone would agree he's a strength. This discussion, from what I get from the OP, is simply about BEN. His talent, his ability vs. his production, what areas he can still improve on, etc. I think you're making it out to be a whole lot more than it is—a team discussion, rather than a BEN discussion.Originally Posted by Dissolv
I understood it, and disagreed with it. When you have a peak performer, at the top of his game, it is futile to try to get more out of him. Ben is not just "top 5" any more. When not injured (or just coming back), he may be the very best in the league right now. Just look at his work last game -- it was insane.
It would be far more productive looking at another player, or the team as a whole.
Now is Ben working on getting better? I am sure. Are his coaches pushing him? Yes they are -- I assume. But you are squeezing blood from a stone at this point.
Dissolv
Ben has two throws he struggles with: the super deep ball and crossing routes. Too often his deep ball is short forcing his receivers to turn back to the ball instead of running under it. On his crossing routes, he throws late, behind the receiver and doesn't lead them to the ball. This speaks to a slow down of his reaction and response time in that he's throwing to where he thinks his receivers are or will be but they have already travelled beyond that point. For a player at this level of success it may be nitpicking but this is what the coaches do. They all see that on tape. They go back and see that on his one INT against the Bengals the receiver had a step on his man but had to turn right and behind to reel it in. Ben will recognize that if he led his wideout properly he would've had it. They'll make a note of it and come back and try it again next week. It is what it is with Ben. He's still a damn fine QB with a couple of kinks in his game just like the rest of them.
Array title="tube517 has a reputation beyond repute">
Here's an analogy...
In the late 90's, Tony Gwynn would seek out and discuss batting technique with guys like Nomar and Ichiro. Gwynn had won more batting titles in the 90s alone, than those two combined in their careers... yet, Gwynn always sought to get better.
SUMMATION:
You can always improve... (which I believe is PsychoWard's point).
So on the "super deep ball" define "struggles". Other than an imaginary perfect robotic deep throwing cybernetic QB from the future, who is better? I'm not saying that Ben is the best, but no matter what statistical criteria you select, I know that Ben is easily top 5 and likely top 3 currently playing.
Now if you want to select a more qualitative standard, such as "I see other guys do it better". Is that in only highlights or in actual game action week in and week out?
Point being, Ben underthrows some throws and is late on others - no doubt. But is he underthrowing or later more or less often than other QBs? I suspect the answer is that he is doing better than most.
“No problem. Like I said, Ben's "average" is good enough to win most games. And, in fact, "average" from Ben is what I expect. Does he need to take it to a higher level at the end of the season? Sure, but everyone does, and that includes Antonio Brown, our D Line, etc., simply because that's what happens coming into the playoffs. That's not a knock on Ben, rather, it's just a fact of the football season we're in. I'll say Brady and Gronk, and Carolina need to take it to a higher level as well, or they'll get beat in the playoffs.
As far as civility. When you consider the premise of the thread I'm not sure civility is warranted. If you make a ridiculous point in a polite manner and forewarn no one is to mock you, well? I mean if I start a thread saying Mike Tomlin got his job strictly based on race and is among the worst coaches in the league, civil conversation only... should I be immune to being called out for idiocy?
Civility should be the status quo of any thread, IMO, and his point isn't ridiculous. In fact, he backed it with a number of arguments. If someone asked about Tomlin getting the job due to the Rooney Rule, and put forward a bunch of arguments that had basis in facts, then no, it's not ridiculous.
Here's the OPs argument:
Argument 1 : I simply think he could stand to be better.
(capitulation 1) [but] I don't think it's all his fault.
Argument 2. based on commentary from Gumbel/Trent Green today: Tomlin and Haley were encouraging Ben all season to make risky deep throws because oftentimes, it's the equivalent of a punt.
Argument 3. Ben is more than smart enough not to force some of these super deep passes that he's attempted that resulted in INT's against the patriots, rams, raiders, and the bengals (twice now).
Conclusion 1. picking up the 1st down/not turning the ball over would be a nice alternative to these thread through the eye of a needle throws 40+ yards downfield.
Anticipating Response 1. "it also sets up the deep pass later in the game,"
Countering Response: are uncharacteristic under/overthrows into double/triple coverage really setting up these passes?
CR Capitulation: Ben leads the league in 40+ yard completions in the league despite missing 4 and a half games.
Counter Argument: however, the vast majority of these completions were far more open than the ones that got picked off. maybe if Martavis continues to grow as a receiver and learns to highpoint the ball and be more physical we can return to these types of attempts, but for now, no one else thinks this offense would be better if it were more in the mold of last season with a higher mixture of intermediate/short passes thrown in for good measure?
Final conclusion: Ben is capable of having a season more along the lines of 4:1, 5:1, maybe even 6:1 in TD:INT ratio. and with these weapons, this O-line, i think it will be a reality if we play smarter ball. Ben's too good to have only had 2 30+ pass TD seasons so far for his career.
(capitulation 2) p.s on the flip side, just noticed that Ben has only fumbled once and not lost any this season
There is absolutely nothing ridiculous about his arguments. Are they all sound? All valid? Maybe, maybe not. But calling it ridiculous is dismissing an argument without engaging it, and there's plenty enough facts or reasonable deductions to engage.
Now getting back to Ben yesterday. 32 completions in 39 attempts. So that leaves us 7 incompletions. One of course we already discussed that being the missed interference call in the end zone. Perfect pass. With legal coverage it's a completion 99 out of 100 times. If it's not that's on the receiver, not the qb.
Can't agree here. the ball was a couple steps behind Bryant and on his inside shoulder. A well-thrown ball would have been to his outside shoulder and in front of him. With legal coverage, the DB still have great position, between Bryant and the ball. Furthermore, the ball hung up enough to allow a second DB to come in and clean up. Had Bryant touched the ball, there's a very good chance it would have been knocked out of his hands due to placement. In short, while it wasn't necessarily a bad pass, it wasn't a good one either.
. . .
Wife said we gotta go, can't finish this now, but we can at least continue the conversation from here.”
Everything I want to say is basically coming straight out of Craic's mouth. It's like he read my mind. I'm not sure how much more I can refine my point than all of this and the afore mentioned quotes. Btw, that middle section of text is all Craic's writing, its just an editing error to be clear.
Here's what I think a lot of people may be upset about. Ben's been slighted by the masses his entire career. He goes 13-0 as a rookie, wins OROY, and has one of the best seasons by a rookie QB ever. He gets downplayed as a result and called a game manager with a great surrounding cast.
The following season he wins the superbowl and plays great football down the stretch to get us there, only to play poorly once were in the big dance. Again, he gets downplayed as a result and called a game manager with a great surrounding cast.
2006, a mass of injuries, and more throws than ever before and Ben has a bad season, reinforcing this stereotype of him being overrated.
This pattern continues without improvement really until maybe after 2008, and then takes a big leap starting last season. However, us steeler fans tire for the day that he TRULY gets recognized by consensus up there with the Brady's and Rodger's of the world. I think we as steeler fans have spent so much time and effort defending him that we've gotten to a point where we dont wont to look at miniscule flaws to his game out of fear of discrediting what he's accomplished.
I'm not here to do that, I simply think he can be better, and for the life of me, do not understand why that could come off as ridiculous. I find it more ridiculous that some see him as incapable of correcting these small nitpicks to his game. Ben has taken his game to the next level every couple of years in the league. I don't see why he cant do it again
Fellas, the misunderstanding in this thread is that I'm arguing against Ben's greatness, when in fact I'm acknowledging it. These statistics by tube517 are amazing. I simply think Ben is great enough to take his game to an even higher level. (this isnt necessarily targeted towards you tube517)
I can almost guarantee someone will bump this thread in the future after Ben has some crazy record setting season as if to say "aha, you look stupid now" when all it would really be doing is asserting my original point
Aaron Rodgers could be more efficient. Tom Brady could be more efficient.
Enthroned Into The Good Old Boys Club - 2024
Array title="tube517 has a reputation beyond repute">
Bump (just kidding)
And Psycho, I was only posting to continue the discussion. Not even disagreeing with you at all.
And I think since his suspension, (He worked out with George Whitfield) he has been improving greatly despite the crap OL's he has had. He finally gets a decent healthy OL in 2014 and he is able to really show his greatness. Not that he wasn't great before. He improved and has kept improving.
What does this have to do with Ben
how is that even comparable? i havent downplayed that Ben is a top flight QB. In fact, ive stated several times he is VERY GOOD. Ive stated my reasoning quite thoroughly instead of just blurting things out and waiting for chaos to ensue. i respect your opinion, please respect mine.
As far as civility. When you consider the premise of the thread I'm not sure civility is warranted. If you make a ridiculous point in a polite manner and forewarn no one is to mock you, do you have to respect that? I mean if I start a thread saying Mike Tomlin got his job strictly based on race and is among the worst coaches in the league, civil conversation only... should I be immune to being called out for idiocy?
i find it strange that some who claim to disagree with my opinion arent even denying that Ben could be better, only passing along an "are you kidding me right now??" type of rhetoric. otherwise i think this is an interesting subject to look at.
Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute">
The thread title could be the problem. The thread title says Ben could be more efficient. The last 4 games begs the question how? You also cited Ben's lack of TD passes for the season, and his TD to int ratio. Again on the season those particular numbers don't look great for this era. 15-9 not killing it. I get that.
But those numbers don't tell the story of his season to date imo. Ben's been unselfish inside the 5 and is content to let the rb's carry it in from there. And to me that's a great idea. Avoid hits and that's a high traffic area, it's easy for a ball to get tipped and intercepted as a result. Sometimes a particular stat can take a year off. I mean by every other measurable he's having a career year. Completion %- check, YPA- check PPG check. And let's not forget his interception numbers are slightly skewed by the first game back from injury where he clearly was effected by the injury. Throw out that game and his TD to int ratio is a much more respectable 14-7.
You also made some mention of his last game being "average", and have indicated he can and should play better. And to this point again I strongly disagree. Yeah his end of game numbers were underwhelming. But as I previously pointed out that's attributable to game circumstances. When it mattered most, when the games outcome was being decided, Ben was brilliant. On the first 3 possessions Ben couldn't have been sharper helping stake the Steelers to a 13-0 lead. And after that every time the Bengals would close the gap he would answer right back. Did the Steelers reel it in some after opening up the lead? Yeah to an extent they did. Would you like to take that interception back if you're Ben? Yeah you would, but the resulting field position the Bengals got out of that interception strongly contributed to the Steelers scoring the deciding TD a couple minutes later. So while you couldn't term the second half a masterpiece it sure was effective.
In conclusion I'm fine if Ben can keep his play right where it's been for the majority of this season. I really think he's playing at a level few have ever obtained already, maybe he can improve a little? But I think his efficiency is just fine.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
Indeed.
Tony Gwynn got better and better and better (until he simply got too old).
There was an article that I read recently, wherein it talks about how Ben has improved every single year, and specifically how the past 5 seasons, BB has gotten incredibly good... Like "best in the NFL" good. It detailed how BB can actually throw the ball better now than he did when he was younger... and that he will probably improve next year... and the next year (until his body breaks down).
Anyway, we should be seeing a couple of freakin' great years this season and the next two (or three).
Array title="Craic has a reputation beyond repute">
I disagree with a few things here, but that's a heck of a good post in the spirit of the thread.
Ben sucks. Cut him.
What's wrong with the thread title? How could he be more efficient? Seriously, I just explained that several times with other posters adding on. By calling Ben an elite QB I'm already implying that the stats dont tell the whole story. I get that too. Otherwise I would have spent this entire thread talking about how average he is.
I made some mention of his last game being average? Nope, this is news to me. Again, a lot of these points arent actually addressing the points ive talked about or theyre overwriting them. If you're defending the part where Ben threw a pick that was essentially a coffin corner punt then you completely ignored what I had to say about that.
Not sure why this tidbit in bold is added at the end. Seems to me thats what ive been saying the entire time
Array title="Craic has a reputation beyond repute">
I'm the one that called his last game average, because I thought it was. Average doesn't necessarily mean statwise, either. We've all seen a QB with great stats but has done very little on the field. Obviously, Ben has done a whole lot, but the idea is the same. From watching the game, Ben just seemed not to be 100 percent in the zone on Sunday. Maybe that's why he hit so many checkdowns (and if so, it speaks to his maturity and overall proof that he really is a very good, if not great QB—most QBs would keep forcing it, especially gunslinging QBs). Compare his game this week against the last two Colts games, which may have been two of his best games to date, and the difference is easier to see.
The more I think about it, the more I'd disagree with the word efficient. Ben's plenty efficient most of the time (every once in a while he has a bad game, most do). Instead, I'd say there's still room for Ben to grow when it comes to forcing his will on the other team throughout the game. He can do it, and we've seen him do it a number of times, but he's still not quite as consistent at it as I'd like to see. That's the one difference keeping him from the level of Peyton Manning (of years past) or Tom Brady* (if he hadn't cheated).
Would I trade Ben for either of those QBs? No. Because I like Ben's ability to react to plays breaking down a lot more than those other two (even in their prime), but it doesn't mean I don't see Ben as just not quite as consistent week in and week out at dominating the football field.
Of course Ben could be "more efficient". But so could the "BEST" QBs in the league. It's easy to say he could be more efficient without comparing him to the rest of the league and their efficiency throwing the deep ball.
I'd prefer they go for the gimme pass to get the first down too but when the coverage is up tight and there's only one safety over the top and he's on the far side of the field, Ben would be stupid not to take a 40 yard shot downfield to Bryant. He'd be really stupid. It's not a high percentage pass, but this teams not known for that. When was the last time they threw a simple quick slant to AB to convert a first down or a goal to go situation? Rarely. It's not their style.
Well I feel comfortable putting him a small rung under Rodgers. He's the only QB I feel ok about doing that with. I'm going to try to narrow down some articles on this when I can, but Rodgers seems pretty tops in accordance with an eye test and a stat sheet. The packers are the only team ive watched a lot of other than the steelers being that im from wisconsin.
I dont see why it would be stupid for Ben to NOT take a shot down the field with one safety over the top. That's called double coverage most of the time. Bryant is as physically gifted as they come but he hasnt harnessed it yet. His ability to hand fight at the line, high point the ball on contested catches, and run through much smaller DB's is a little underwhelming given his stature. But the arrow still looks to be pointing way up on him
But it's not true double coverage and if Bryant beats the tight coverage...he's got a free pass to the endzone.
A related thought...
I wonder what conversations Browns fans have about their QBs? More efficient... better at the long-ball... I bet it's more like: "Does he have a pulse???"
The point:
We have first world problems.
Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute">
More like is he sober, or hung over today?
Last edited by zulater; 12-18-2015 at 09:54 AM.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
Why would you be sober if you're a QB for the browns
Every Qb wants to be more efficent but, think I his deep ball passing has gotten alot better. Plus there have been some drops as well and, sometimes Ben gets a little greedy trying for the homehun shot when a first down is all that is needed. Now if you had WR's like MB, AB, & Wheaton the deep ball is a good choice most of the time.
Is it just me or have we gotten away from the play action pass in recent years? With the way DWills is running, i dont see why not sprinkle a few once in a while
Maybe because they take longer to develop? If they give these WRs anymore lead time in getting downfield, Ben won't be able to get the ball far enough!
I honestly don't know.
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