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Thread: Please explain something to me

  1. #1
    Member Array title="KillerBs is an unknown quantity at this point"> KillerBs's Avatar

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    Please explain something to me

    I did not play football when I was younger (although I wanted to but didn't meet the weight requirements). For those of you that have football experience and have played in zone defense before please answer this question: Is zone defense supposed to be played the way the Steelers are right now?

    It seems strange to me that a defense was devised to allow a receiver to catch a pass with no one within 5 yards of him.

    The reason I ask is if they are doing it wrong why haven't the done anything to correct it?

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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    Banned Array title="B&GFever will become famous soon enough">

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    Re: Please explain something to me

    Quote Originally Posted by KillerBs View Post
    I did not play football when I was younger (although I wanted to but didn't meet the weight requirements). For those of you that have football experience and have played in zone defense before please answer this question: Is zone defense supposed to be played the way the Steelers are right now?

    It seems strange to me that a defense was devised to allow a receiver to catch a pass with no one within 5 yards of him.

    The reason I ask is if they are doing it wrong why haven't the done anything to correct it?

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    we lack the required speed and recognition at the S pos , we also are not getting the linebacker help ( also a speed issue ) with Timmons out and it being preseason and not seeing much Shazier either

    we will not have a better idea of how it will look until Timmons and Shazier are on the field , however we still lack Safety speed and understanding of their assignments ..

    Tampa 2 and cover two are highly dependent on 3 things ..

    1) pressure

    2) Linebacker help in coverage

    3) quick minded and quick speed from the Safety play

    lack in any of those 3 areas and you become vulnerable

    Tampa got away with 1 slower Safety in John Lynch but had above average pass rushers and very good coverage linebacker to mask it ...

    can we duplicate that ?

    I have my doubts

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    Re: Please explain something to me

    Quote Originally Posted by KillerBs View Post
    I did not play football when I was younger (although I wanted to but didn't meet the weight requirements). For those of you that have football experience and have played in zone defense before please answer this question: Is zone defense supposed to be played the way the Steelers are right now?

    It seems strange to me that a defense was devised to allow a receiver to catch a pass with no one within 5 yards of him.

    The reason I ask is if they are doing it wrong why haven't the done anything to correct it?

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    Yes, it sure seems strange. I believe there will be "seams" in most zones, but not the size of the Alleghany River. Right now, our secondary is allowing for massive holes....line unimaginable holes.

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    Re: Please explain something to me

    Quote Originally Posted by B&GFever View Post
    we lack the required speed and recognition at the S pos , we also are not getting the linebacker help ( also a speed issue ) with Timmons out and it being preseason and not seeing much Shazier either

    we will not have a better idea of how it will look until Timmons and Shazier are on the field , however we still lack Safety speed and understanding of their assignments ..

    Tampa 2 and cover two are highly dependent on 3 things ..

    1) pressure

    2) Linebacker help in coverage

    3) quick minded and quick speed from the Safety play

    lack in any of those 3 areas and you become vulnerable

    Tampa got away with 1 slower Safety in John Lynch but had above average pass rushers and very good coverage linebacker to mask it ...

    can we duplicate that ?

    I have my doubts
    Pretty good assessment, but I felt we saw too MUCH of Shazier this preseason. He was in games in the 2nd half a lot of times and I didn't think it was worth the injury risk.

    Your other points are dead on: You need pressure from the front 4, which Tampa had in spades. We don't. No pressure = QB can wait for receivers to find seams. And with unathletic safeties, they occur, as we have been seeing all PS. TB had Brooks, we was a demon as a fast cover ILB. Shaz could become that with his speed. Timmons does fairly well when covering for his size. But the lack of pressure and slowness/inexperience at S is just killing us.

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    Re: Please explain something to me

    Quote Originally Posted by B&GFever View Post
    we lack the required speed and recognition at the S pos , we also are not getting the linebacker help ( also a speed issue ) with Timmons out and it being preseason and not seeing much Shazier either

    we will not have a better idea of how it will look until Timmons and Shazier are on the field , however we still lack Safety speed and understanding of their assignments ..

    Tampa 2 and cover two are highly dependent on 3 things ..

    1) pressure CHECK

    2) Linebacker help in coverage CHECK

    3) quick minded and quick speed from the Safety play CHECK

    lack in any of those 3 areas and you become vulnerable

    Tampa got away with 1 slower Safety in John Lynch but had above average pass rushers and very good coverage linebacker to mask it ...

    can we duplicate that ?

    I have my doubts
    Yep...can't do any of it.

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    you are a Kenny Pickett enabler

  6. #6

    Re: Please explain something to me

    Quote Originally Posted by KillerBs View Post
    I did not play football when I was younger (although I wanted to but didn't meet the weight requirements). For those of you that have football experience and have played in zone defense before please answer this question: Is zone defense supposed to be played the way the Steelers are right now?

    It seems strange to me that a defense was devised to allow a receiver to catch a pass with no one within 5 yards of him.

    The reason I ask is if they are doing it wrong why haven't the done anything to correct it?

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    In a cover-2 the cornerbacks should be able to play close to the WR. When the wide receiver starts his route our corners should stay with them while never actually having to turn their backs to the QB...this "should" eliminate the short pass and allow the corners to jump the route.

    One of the middle linebackers (in our case..Timmons) should drop back and cover the middle of the field while two safeties cover the mid to deep sides.

    HOWEVER...we are not seeing this for two main reasons. As stated before...Timmons has been limited in the preseason...and more importantly...Shamarko has a TERRIBLE understanding (or terrible execution) of position responsibility. On several plays it "appeared" that the corners were dropping off coverage and getting burnt over the top, when in reality it was Shamarko's responsibility to pick up the receiver when they entered his zone.

    Now...what we have seen in the last few games is a DIRECT result of poor safety play. The corners have to cheat back to prevent the deeper reception knowing that the safety cant be trusted to be in position to stop the long gain. That "cheat" allows the short to intermediate pass of 5-7 yards ...everytime.

    Also, as mentioned, QB pressure is important.....but more so to stop the longer passes than the 5 yard quick reads.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Re: Please explain something to me

    I'd love to see some stats on which coverages the Steelers use. Without having focused on that directly in games it seems the Steelers play mostly cover 3 with the OLBs or S covering the flat rather than the CBs.

    That is definitely how Lebeau did it.

    I just looked at a "breakdown" of the Steelers cover 2 and they used an example where the outside corner dropped and the slot corner covered the flat... that is cover 3.

    I don't think the Steelers do have a good secondary for a cover 2. It puts a lot of pressure on the safeties and Mitchell is OK in coverage and the SS is a giant ? Now that the Steelers have Burns at least they have 2 good sized corners for the outside.

    Not to mention the cover 2 limits the safeties and forces them to stay at home (of course there is no Polamalu now freelancing) and it takes away the element of OLB surprise that Lebeau used for so long.

    I think the point was already made that the "Tampa 2" worked so well in Tampa because of Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Derrick Brooks, Ronde Barber and John Lynch. Brooks is one of the best coverage linebackers and just best linebackers ever.

    Teams are used to the cover 2 now, tight ends are much harder to cover down the seams, most teams have a deep threat etc. I'm not too thrilled about the cover 2.

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    Re: Please explain something to me

    I know we joke about the whole "first year player on LeBeau's defense" should sit but I'm real confused right now.

    Troy played SS but in this forum, I have seen posters say that Ryan Clark played some SS and Troy played FS in some plays, not all. What is the difference now? People say that Mitchell can/should play SS and I actually can see that but is he different from Troy/Ryan? Is he more like Ryan? (I'm aware Troy was all world but I thought he played alot of SS/ILB esp in his later years.)

    And I know the 70s Steelers played a completely different defense but I mean I'm old school and watched Mike Wagner stay back while Donnie Shell or Glen Edwards got more hits. Wagner himself said some plays he just stood around and watched lol



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    Re: Please explain something to me

    Troy obviously roamed more with Clark staying at home. Harrison and Woodley often coverred the flat zone. Harrison dropped more than any other OLB in the NFL and Woodley wasn't far behind I think 3rd.

    The Steelers created confusion in the front 7 more than the secondary mostly based on which LBs blitzed and which dropped and Butler has continued that.

    I think QBs were aware that Ike would shadow the #1 often and Clark would have the deep responsibility. The wild cards were Troy and the OLBs.

    In a cover 2 both safeties play Clark's role, the LBs usually drop to cover 5-10 yards past LOS and the corners cover the flat. I'm sure AJ Green is loving the increased cover 2. Can't wait to get matched up 1 v 1 with Golden or rookie Davis. Go routes all day.

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    Re: Please explain something to me

    Quote Originally Posted by LloydWoodson View Post
    Troy obviously roamed more with Clark staying at home. Harrison and Woodley often coverred the flat zone. Harrison dropped more than any other OLB in the NFL and Woodley wasn't far behind I think 3rd.

    The Steelers created confusion in the front 7 more than the secondary mostly based on which LBs blitzed and which dropped and Butler has continued that.

    I think QBs were aware that Ike would shadow the #1 often and Clark would have the deep responsibility. The wild cards were Troy and the OLBs.

    In a cover 2 both safeties play Clark's role, the LBs usually drop to cover 5-10 yards past LOS and the corners cover the flat. I'm sure AJ Green is loving the increased cover 2. Can't wait to get matched up 1 v 1 with Golden or rookie Davis. Go routes all day.
    Thank you very much.

    What is your assessment of Mike Mitchell (besides the dumb cocky celebrations) in terms of SS, FS or whatever in Butler's defense



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    Senior Member Array title="Born2Steel has a reputation beyond repute"> Born2Steel's Avatar

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    Re: Please explain something to me

    The 'Tackle the Catch' philosophy has become a less efficient defense than the way it has been played, up til recently. DBs used to be able to apply hits that would separate the ball from the receiver from the vicious impact. Those hits have become illegal in today's NFL. The Steelers employed QB pressure to force quick throws in front of the DBs/LBs and once caught, the hit was delivered, and hopefully, a turnover. Cannot play defense that way now so we are in a bit of a transition of sorts. I think we are close now though. Should see much improvement this season.

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