Who's left for pick 56?

[teegre]

The real reason is because we've been trying to run a 3-4 defense with no nose tackle for 6 or 7 years and refuse to acknowledge it's a problem. People have gotten so used to it, and blah blah blah it's a passing league, and blah blah blah number of snaps on the field, that they've convinced themselves it's not a problem. Meanwhile our sack totals keep going down and down and down, and we still act surprised when highly drafted edge rusher after highly drafted edge rusher doesn't live up to expectations.

May I assume that you are hoping that the pick at 56 is:
Carl Davis, NT, Iowa

[LLT]

I think the Steelers are seriously enamored with Eric Rowe. If he slides very far into the 2nd...I TRULY believe we trade up for him.

[vrabinec]

Haven't seen anyone mention Maxx Williams. I'd rather go corner, but I can see them taking him to compliment Heath.

[Mojouw]

For those that want a NT, watch the second half of the a Ravens playoff game. Now name me 4 better run stoppers than what McCullers looked like in that half.

[Rotorhead]

Did you honestly say Tuitt may be ok? He is going to be a monster and possibly better than Heyward (A Smith like I think). Our DL is the least of our worries. I honestly think some of the CBs listed drop to us and to us again in the 3rd. I think we will get 2 solid CBs in the 2nd and 3rd. After that I don't care what we get, we will have answered our most glaring needs.

(Wow my spelling went to crap on this post!)

[steelreserve]

May I assume that you are hoping that the pick at 56 is:
Carl Davis, NT, Iowa

Not at all - I'm pulling for one of the corners mentioned above. The situation there is so dire, and with nobody waiting in the wings to possibly bail us out, that it's the far bigger need. I'd love us to have Davis, and Eddie Goldman from FSU would be ideal, but not at the cost of passing up a DB. I severely doubt either will be there in the third round, and after them, the NT talent seems to go off a cliff into what-the-hell late round picks. A lot of people were talking up Ellis McCarthy from UCLA, but he looks to me like less of a nose tackle prospect and more like just a fat guy; shades of Alameda Ta'amu.

No, the time to address NT would've been last year's draft, when Louis Nix slid down to the late third round (probably would've had to give up this year's 3 and last year's 4, which turned into Bryant, though). Or in free agency this offseason when Terrance Knighton signed for $2M more than we're paying Dirty Dick Cam Thomas - which REALLY would've been the way to do it. I was pissed when I saw how cheaply he went. My frustration is more of the fact that we've passed up so many opportunities to do something about it in the recent past than a thought that we should do something now; our options are limited.

Of course ... if we'd taken care of CB in the first round, instead of throwing more first-round picks at the pass rush without fixing the underlying problem with the pass rush ... then we would be in position to have a pick we could spend on NT. There are some nice players in the second round this time. Pity we can't afford to take one.

Yes, yes, what about the value at CB, who would you take that's worth the first pick in that situation ... any of the four CBs we've mentioned. We needed one. Still do. People really want to get that hung up on draft value points, then trade down a few spots, for chrissakes. Or just reach a little bit; teams do that all the time and it doesn't kill them. There are far worse reaches every year.

[teegre]

Haven't seen anyone mention Maxx Williams. I'd rather go corner, but I can see them taking him to compliment Heath.

Yep.
That woukd not surprise me at all. They brought in/met with seven TEs. Williams would be the heir apparent to Heath.

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I think the Steelers are seriously enamored with Eric Rowe. If he slides very far into the 2nd...I TRULY believe we trade up for him.

A buddy of mine said the same thing. My question to him (and now to you): "What makes you think that the Steelers want Rowe?"


(I'm not trying to be argumentative; merely interested.).

[steelreserve]

Did you honestly say Tuitt may be ok? He is going to be a monster and possibly better than Heyward (A Smith like I think). Our DL is the least of our worries. I honestly think some of the CBs listed drop to us and to us again in the 3rd. I think we will get 2 solid CBs in the 2nd and 3rd. After that I don't care what we get, we will have answered our most glaring needs.

I am not wondering whether Tuitt will be OK. I am wondering whether he will be SO GOOD that he is not only a good DE but also makes up for the lack of a nose tackle. That is a completely different question.

One requires you to be good, of which I have little doubt Tuitt is. The other requires you to be as good as A. Smith at his best, and there have been a handful of those guys in the history of the game. That is much less certain.

[teegre]

NFL Network went to the guy at the Steelers facility... asking about the 56th pick.

The he guy said:

--Butler wants bigger, more physical CBs.

--the Steelers hope that Jalen Collins drops

--if Landon Collins is there at 56, he's be plug'n'play from day one.

[teegre]

Of course ... if we'd taken care of CB in the first round, instead of throwing more first-round picks at the pass rush without fixing the underlying problem with the pass rush ... then we would be in position to have a pick we could spend on NT. There are some nice players in the second round this time. Pity we can't afford to take one.

Yes, yes, what about the value at CB, who would you take that's worth the first pick in that situation ... any of the four CBs we've mentioned. We needed one. Still do. People really want to get that hung up on draft value points, then trade down a few spots, for chrissakes. Or just reach a little bit; teams do that all the time and it doesn't kill them. There are far worse reaches every year.

I heard Damien Woodey talk about this very topic: CB vs. OLB. Here's (essentially) what Woodey said:

"I played with Darrelle Revis, and he was the BEST player that I ever played with. But, if the choice was Revis or a very good OLB, give me the OLB every time. A corner can take ONE player out of the game: the receiver that he's covering. An OLB can disrupt the QB, which takes ALL of the receivers out of the game."


Secondly, I am a believer in "best available" over "need."

Regardless, if CB was need #1, then OLB was need #1-a.

[Born2Steel]

I heard a conversation this morning about team 'needs'. Every team is only one missed step from a new team need. That pitcher in St.Louis blew out his achilles leaving the dug out, done for the season. The best player available approach makes more sense than only drafting for need. Look at the conversations over the past months about the olinemen in this draft. What makes them 'valued' is that they can play at multiple spots, and thus can fill multiple needs as they occur. It looks like we are getting closer to that on the defensive side as well.

[Steeltreal]

Lose one Trojan ,gain another.

[Mojouw]

Here is the last thing I will say about NT. Look at where the rest of the teams have drafted their NTs. I did a detailed post on it awhile back. Basically other than Dontari Poe and Nix - no starting NTs were drafted higher than the 4th round around the league. With the exception of the guys originally drafted as pass-rushing DEs and finishing up their career as a bulky NT.

So it is all well and good to complain about NT not getting taken -- but no one seems to placing a large value on them. Is Nix going to be better than McCullers + Bryant?

All that being said, the evil genius in NE just drafted one in the 1st round.

But that brings up the point that how many guys drafted high do you need at one position group? If the Steelers drafted a NT in round 1 or 2 that would be 3 round one or two picks starting across a 3 main line. I mean if 4 #1 picks is too many at linebacker -- the premier position group in a 3-4 front -- how many 1st and 2nd rounders would be too many across the line?

[tube517]

I heard Damien Woodey talk about this very topic: CB vs. OLB. Here's (essentially) what Woodey said:

"I played with Darrelle Revis, and he was the BEST player that I ever played with. But, if the choice was Revis or a very good OLB, give me the OLB every time. A corner can take ONE player out of the game: the receiver that he's covering. An OLB can disrupt the QB, which takes ALL of the receivers out of the game."


Secondly, I am a believer in "best available" over "need."

Regardless, if CB was need #1, then OLB was need #1-a.

don't be so reasonable. Fire Colbert.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 2

[Rotorhead]

Well, by his (Tuitt) progress each game last season, he looks every bit like he could become the next A Smith. And the few snaps the McCullers had he was able to completely dominate the opposing OLine (yes I will conceded it was a limited number of snaps and he certainly needs work). I do think we need some depth at DL, but I honestly feel that Tuitt will have a breakout season and overshadow any possible deficiencies at NT and the next season Big Dan will take over the NT position and our DL will not only be set, it will be the best in the league. My thoughts on OLB or CB are pretty simple, fix one. Either is fine with me, but fix one as it can help with the other. If we have 4 Revis' on our team our rush will have more time to get there. If we have 2 JH's in his prime rushing, we could put my mother out to cover as the QB won't last the game before he is taken off on a stretcher. Here are my hopes. We draft 2 solid CB's in the 2nd and later rounds. Between JJ, JH, Moats and others we can generate more pressure than last season (JJ was much improved at the beginning of the season from what I saw and Moats/JH should be much better than Worilds). Hopefully our current CB's can do a decent job at playing while the young guys learn the system. They are taking a gamble for this season I think, but if a few things work out our way and a couple players step up we should have a better Defense. I think had we had Bell, we would have been at least in the AFCCG as we would have beaten the Broncos and the Ravens. Our CB play has the ability to be better in the backfield as long as Shark can step in and play well (this is his time to show what he has learned, and I think he will be fine). The only real question to me is Cortez, if he can respond like Ike did, we will be much improved. If not then it will be a long season for our Def.

[steelreserve]

Here is the last thing I will say about NT. Look at where the rest of the teams have drafted their NTs. I did a detailed post on it awhile back. Basically other than Dontari Poe and Nix - no starting NTs were drafted higher than the 4th round around the league. With the exception of the guys originally drafted as pass-rushing DEs and finishing up their career as a bulky NT.

So it is all well and good to complain about NT not getting taken -- but no one seems to placing a large value on them. Is Nix going to be better than McCullers + Bryant?

All that being said, the evil genius in NE just drafted one in the 1st round.

But that brings up the point that how many guys drafted high do you need at one position group? If the Steelers drafted a NT in round 1 or 2 that would be 3 round one or two picks starting across a 3 main line. I mean if 4 #1 picks is too many at linebacker -- the premier position group in a 3-4 front -- how many 1st and 2nd rounders would be too many across the line?

Not trying to prolong the argument or expecting a reply; I know we have our differences on the subject and you do have good points ... but here is where I stand on the thing. I wish we would do something, anything to address what is to me an obvious need. We don't have to draft a guy in the first round. We don't have to spend an $8 million contract on one. But the degree to which they are ignoring it is pitiful - almost as if they're going out of their way to prove some theoretical point.

Nose tackles, like a lot of other positions, have "draft value" that fluctuates wildly based on what the current or recent Super Bowl champion did. When 3-4 teams like us are successful, suddenly there's a run on nose tackles and 3-4 defensive ends. When teams with tall, physical cornerbacks like Seattle are successful, suddenly there's a run on tall, physical cornerbacks. The fact that multiple RBs were selected in the first round this year can probably be directly attributed to Bell and Marshawn Lynch making such a difference for their respective teams.

It's not a copycat league, it's a lemming league. When we were setting ourselves up to be super-successful in the early 2000s, a lot of it involved finding "our" kinds of player when they were not in high demand, because everyone was busy copying the Rams on offense and the Ravens' 4-3 defense. When we tried and failed to "reload" circa 2007-09, a lot of our problem was that we stuck to our same personnel habits while the value scale had moved drastically because everyone was copying us, but we tried to blast through it anyway - whoops. Now that round of lemming behavior has faded we're at a great value point for NT, so I don't see why we don't take advantage of it, and in fact make unusual effort to ignore it.

As for multiple high picks on the DL ... fisrt of all 2-2-1 is not even close to 1-1-1-1. Second, linebacker is precisely the position where a single player has the least impact, other than offensive line. Improve NT and you improve all the linebackers at once. For some reason we refuse to do it. I just don't understand.

[Steelman]

Shefter says PITT wants to trade up in 2nd:

Take that for what it's worth.

My guess is one of the Collins' or Rowe.

[st33lersguy]

Shefter says PITT wants to trade up in 2nd:

Take that for what it's worth

If they trade up that far for any position but a cornerback the front office should be drug-tested. Frankly I say stand pat and then trade up if there is a run on CBs but if they get Eric Rowe it will be a good move

[vrabinec]

Shefter says PITT wants to trade up in 2nd:

Take that for what it's worth.

My guess is one of the Collins' or Rowe.

Schefty's usually reliable. I'd hate to lose next year's #1 pick though. I assume that's what it would take. So, we'd be trading our second rounder and next year's 32nd overall pick for this year's 33rd overall?

[Steelman]

[polamalubeast]

Schefty's usually reliable. I'd hate to lose next year's #1 pick though. I assume that's what it would take. So, we'd be trading our second rounder and next year's 32nd overall pick for this year's 33rd overall?

it would be stupid


Only a first round of next year would be enough, but I hate doing that(what happens if we sucks next year with the tough schedule?)

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And it would be for Landon Collins

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That's what worries me the most. There are 21 picks to go before us, and we're four guys away from "the value just wasn't there, what'd you want to do, reach for a CB rated in the third round, I think it was a good call," rinse, repeat, wait until the fifth round and draft a guy who doesn't even make the team.

Or maybe we're only two guys away, and when we inexplicably pass them over, the other two "just weren't on our board at all."

It's not inconceivable. Plenty of other teams have their eyes on the same four guys.





The real reason is because we've been trying to run a 3-4 defense with no nose tackle for 6 or 7 years and refuse to acknowledge it's a problem. People have gotten so used to it, and blah blah blah it's a passing league, and blah blah blah number of snaps on the field, that they've convinced themselves it's not a problem. Meanwhile our sack totals keep going down and down and down, and we still act surprised when highly drafted edge rusher after highly drafted edge rusher doesn't live up to expectations.

Maybe McCullers turns out to be dominant. Maybe Tuitt turns out to be so good that we can fake it. Both are a stretch. I really wish we'd do something about it. We had the chance to for about $2 million in free agency and blew it. Maybe one day we'll learn. I'm not holding my breath.

You want to know why the pass rush of the steelers is bad?

Harrison is old,Moat is a backup,Jones is a bust right now and Worilds was very average.....

[Mojouw]

Not trying to prolong the argument or expecting a reply; I know we have our differences on the subject and you do have good points ... but here is where I stand on the thing. I wish we would do something, anything to address what is to me an obvious need. We don't have to draft a guy in the first round. We don't have to spend an $8 million contract on one. But the degree to which they are ignoring it is pitiful - almost as if they're going out of their way to prove some theoretical point.

Nose tackles, like a lot of other positions, have "draft value" that fluctuates wildly based on what the current or recent Super Bowl champion did. When 3-4 teams like us are successful, suddenly there's a run on nose tackles and 3-4 defensive ends. When teams with tall, physical cornerbacks like Seattle are successful, suddenly there's a run on tall, physical cornerbacks. The fact that multiple RBs were selected in the first round this year can probably be directly attributed to Bell and Marshawn Lynch making such a difference for their respective teams.

It's not a copycat league, it's a lemming league. When we were setting ourselves up to be super-successful in the early 2000s, a lot of it involved finding "our" kinds of player when they were not in high demand, because everyone was busy copying the Rams on offense and the Ravens' 4-3 defense. When we tried and failed to "reload" circa 2007-09, a lot of our problem was that we stuck to our same personnel habits while the value scale had moved drastically because everyone was copying us, but we tried to blast through it anyway - whoops. Now that round of lemming behavior has faded we're at a great value point for NT, so I don't see why we don't take advantage of it, and in fact make unusual effort to ignore it.

As for multiple high picks on the DL ... fisrt of all 2-2-1 is not even close to 1-1-1-1. Second, linebacker is precisely the position where a single player has the least impact, other than offensive line. Improve NT and you improve all the linebackers at once. For some reason we refuse to do it. I just don't understand.

Actually, I love the debate. And I stress that it is just a discussion -- not taking any offense at a solid disagreement/other point of view. So, if you'll entertain another reply, here goes!

I think where anyone stands on the question of "why haven't the Steelers improved the NT position?" All comes down to what you see when you look at McCullers. I see a raw football player, but a "freakish" athlete for the position. Additionally, I see someone who in limited snaps against quality competition looked like a man amongst boys in a few instances. Other instances he looked like he had no clue what was going on. By all accounts, McCullers has been one of the hardest working younger players on the roster since the day he was drafted (honestly did read that somewhere). I honestly believe that in as little as 8 games from the start of the upcoming season, people will be talking about what a "Steal" and "how did the Steelers find another late round gem". Now, if you don't see that, and admittedly I am likely going overboard in my expectations, then the NT position is a massive problem.

As to the 2-2-1 versus the 1-1-1-1 at DL and LB; again that comes down to how you view the "priorities" with this scheme. I feel that w/out the talent at the LB position, the whole thing falls apart at a fundamental level. I don't care who you have playing NT, DB, or whatever -- without talent at the LB level none of it will matter.

Will be interesting to see how it all works out. FWIW, I think they should add to the DL in this draft, just in later rounds.

[TD's & Beer]

3 cornerbacks the Steelers could pick in the 2nd round

Cover men that had been frequently projected to Pittsburgh, especially Kevin Johnson and Marcus Peters, came off the board before the Steelers could pick. And the Dallas Cowboys snagged Byron Jones with the 27th selection.

It leaves the Steelers looking at the next tier of corners if they choose to reinforce the outside of their secondary in the second round. Pittsburgh had the sixth-worst pass defense in the league last season and the worst of any playoff team. Here's a look at three corners they could take with the 56th overall pick:

Eric Rowe, Utah, 6 feet, 1 inch, 205 pounds

Physically speaking, there's no way he should make it out of the second round. All seven of his Combine tests ranked in the top performances by cornerbacks and, well, four are off the board. If this really is just a matter of math, Rowe's next.

He visited the Steelers on April 21.

Ronald Darby, Florida State, 5 feet, 11 inches, 193 pounds

Darby's draft stock benefitted from the April 3 DUI arrest of former Florida State teammate P.J. Williams. Darby was reportedly a passenger in a car accident with Williams on Oct. 5, 2014 when both fled the scene after a 2:37 a.m. collision with another car. Darby was not charged.

He refused to testify in the Florida State code-of-conduct hearing about sexual assault allegations against Jameis Winston. Darby was reportedly a witness to the alleged incident.

Darby is also very fast, running a 4.38-second 40-yard dash at the Combine and vertical jumping 41.5 inches. Both were second, behind the already-drafted Trae Waynes and Jones, respectively.

The biggest knocks on Darby on the field are that he grabs receivers too much downfield and isn't a fundamentally sound tackler.

Jalen Collins, LSU, 6 feet, 1 inch, 203 pounds

Collins sat out his pro day with a broken foot. Concerns about that injury may be what dropped him out of the first round as he was once projected to the Steelers at the 22nd spot.

As a body frame, Collins has it all. He just lacks experience, having only made 12 starts in his career.

http://www.pennlive.com/steelers/ind...2nd_round.html

--------------------

top CB's left that made visits

Doran Grant, Ohio State CB, 5 feet, 10 inches, 200 pounds (April 21)

Ran one of the best 40-yard dashes among corners at the Combine with a 4.44-second time, but hasn't shown that same vertical speed on game tape. He's a Day 2 option.

Eric Rowe, Utah CB, 6 feet, 1 inch, 205 pounds (April 21)

If the Steelers take him it will probably be because they've passed on a first-round corner. He likely won't last until the third round, though.

[86WARD]

Why move up? To me it is unthinkable once again .Damn man people like that QB standing up and making a play cuz he has all day long to pick on a guy covering a wide receiver. For the life of me i can't understand some peoples concept of a strong defense. If Chuck could explain it the key is "pressure NOW" coverage later on .

Why not? So you can draft a bunch of mediocre players that may or may not pan out for your team or take the chance on one that has a higher probability to help your team sooner than later? I'd much rather give up a ppick that the team is going to use on a Dri Archet type player to get a better defensive player.

[cold-hard-steel]

I just hate the smell in the air that we may be trading up. Stinky to me . No it ain't my own fart either.

[hawaiiansteeler]

James C Wexell retweeted
Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter -

Titans entertaining offers for top pick in 2nd round, No. 33. Top teams in round 2 all taking calls. One team interested in coming up: PITT.

https://twitter.com/jimwexell

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I think it's Eric Rowe they want to trade up for...

[polamalubeast]

The other team is Washington

[Born2Steel]

A trade from 56 to 33? I just don't see us making that jump. When have we ever done that? And if we said we were interested, during the draft weekend, surely that means just the opposite. Hell, of course we're interested, just like every other team, for the right price. Personally, I would rather trade back from 56 and pick up a second 3rd and 4th round pick. There's real value with that. But moving up 23 spots for an unknown? The cost doesn't make sense.

[teegre]

don't be so reasonable. Fire Colbert.

FIRE any pick that isn't a CB!!!

R2: CB
R3: CB
R4: CB
R5: CB
R6: CB
R6: CB
R7: CB

[teegre]

The other team is Washington

WASH is only a few picks down; so, they have the upper hand. TENN can trade back four spots, still probably get Randy Gregory, and acquire an extra R5 pick.

Normally, that many spots (56 to 33) would require a R3 pick (580 and 400 + 180)... but, it's a HIGHLY coveted pick; so, it might require a R3 and a R5 pick.