Interesting Article on Why Jarvis Jones is Terrible

[Mojouw]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...-the-nfl-draft

Don't need to read the whole thing. Just read the part that talks about how no successful NLF pass rusher EVER has tested as unathletic as Jarvis Jones' combine and Pro Day numbers say he is.

I know this is kind of beating a dead horse, but man is this shaping up to be Colbert's worst draft decision ever or what?

[jb500ex]

I always laugh when the so called think they're geniuses of steeler universe would always talk about his athletic ability. This entire site rode his jock hard saying he would be droy, he was going to good because he led the sec in sacks etc. You could see clear as day he didn't have the talent

[Dwinsgames]

I always laugh when the so called think they're geniuses of steeler universe would always talk about his athletic ability. This entire site rode his jock hard saying he would be droy, he was going to good because he led the sec in sacks etc. You could see clear as day he didn't have the talent

you forgot the obligatory Timmons sucks in there too


I do not think I need to make note of the sarcasm but just in case anyone got here late

[Texasteel]

I always laugh when the so called think they're geniuses of steeler universe would always talk about his athletic ability. This entire site rode his jock hard saying he would be droy, he was going to good because he led the sec in sacks etc. You could see clear as day he didn't have the talent

If you think I will let a blanket insult of anyone here that doesn't agree with you slid by, your wrong. Please back away from any such attempts in the future.

[steelreserve]

I know this is kind of beating a dead horse, but man is this shaping up to be Colbert's worst draft decision ever or what?

No, Ziggy Hood is his worst draft decision ever, and that's going to be a tough one to beat. Jones would probably have to have negative stats for two years to catch up to that level of impact.

[86WARD]

Mendenhall, Hood and potentially Jones. As much as I like to critique Colbert's drafts in a negative way, he's hit the ball out of the park much more than struck out with the #1 picks.

Burress, Hampton, polamalu, Roethlisberger, Miller, Holmes, Timmons, Pouncey, Heyward, DeCastro.

I'd take those picks if I had to take the Kendall Simmons, Ziggy Hood, Rashard Mendenhall, Jarvis Jones picks. I still feel like it's too early to condemn Jones...but it's not looking good...

[Texasteel]

With the same amount of playing time Timmons wasn't looking that good either. A lot of people where ready to call him a bust, I was one of them. I know they are not the same player, but I have seen other players develop slowly and become pretty good players. Does this mean Jones will follow this trait? Of course not, but I saw what I though was improvement before he got hurt, and just am not ready to write him of yet.

[Hawkman]

With the same amount of playing time Timmons wasn't looking that good either. A lot of people where ready to call him a bust, I was one of them. I know they are not the same player, but I have seen other players develop slowly and become pretty good players. Does this mean Jones will follow this trait? Of course not, but I saw what I though was improvement before he got hurt, and just am not ready to write him of yet.

Agreed, I want to see him play a full season (if he can), before I declare him.....anything.

[Mojouw]

With the same amount of playing time Timmons wasn't looking that good either. A lot of people where ready to call him a bust, I was one of them. I know they are not the same player, but I have seen other players develop slowly and become pretty good players. Does this mean Jones will follow this trait? Of course not, but I saw what I though was improvement before he got hurt, and just am not ready to write him of yet.

http://mockdraftable.com/player/1695/

Looking at Timmons graph from the same site, there was a fairly high amount of raw athletic ability there to work with and coach up. There is simply nothing to work with Jones - if you buy this sort of approach.

Not sure I do or not, but pretty interesting way to waste some time nonetheless.

For instance - Dion Jordan breaks the graph http://mockdraftable.com/player/4140/, but he has yet to do anything but nothing in the NFL.

In contrast, Von Miller also breaks the graph http://mockdraftable.com/player/491/ and he has been highly successful.

Here is the data for Worilds http://mockdraftable.com/player/898/; Chris Carter - http://mockdraftable.com/player/357/

Both are way more athletic than Jones and both never developed into anything special -- so clearly this is not a sure thing method of analysis.

- - - Updated - - -

Mendenhall, Hood and potentially Jones. As much as I like to critique Colbert's drafts in a negative way, he's hit the ball out of the park much more than struck out with the #1 picks.

Burress, Hampton, polamalu, Roethlisberger, Miller, Holmes, Timmons, Pouncey, Heyward, DeCastro.

I'd take those picks if I had to take the Kendall Simmons, Ziggy Hood, Rashard Mendenhall, Jarvis Jones picks. I still feel like it's too early to condemn Jones...but it's not looking good...

Mendenhall could play in the NFL and play well when he wasn't hurt or thinking about the nature of clouds or whatever. Sweed stunk. Hood is pretty decent 4-3 defensive tackle - just not a 3-4 end. I think Jarvis is pulling into the lead as the biggest 1st round miss. I guess if he puts up double digit sacks this season and gets consistent pressure, Kendall Simmons is your new leader (but how much of that was his medical issues) followed by Hood if he doesn't continue to start in Tennessee?

[Dwinsgames]

it is easy to take a player with a small sample size and make him look like a bust ....


I think we all agree Bell is one of ( perhaps the best ) RB in the league right now ... but looking at the last 3 games he played in he had 48 carries for 130 yards ( 2.7 YPC ) under that sample size not many people would say he was very good , but we know better based on the 3 weeks prior to that 485 yards rushing on 80 carries ( over 6 YPC )

OLB is normally the longest venture from Draft date to success date in the scheme we have ran , toss in an injury that sidelines you half a season its no wonder he has not shown dividends to this point ...

will he moving forward ? its anyone's guess we have seen plenty of high picks at the pos not pan out ( see Bruce Davis a second round pick ) 5 total career tackles and 1 Forced fumble total his entire career stat line

Top 20 all-time Pittsburgh Steelers sack leaders:
(Through the 2010 season)
#1 - Jason Gildon - 77
#2 - Joey Porter - 60


Gildon was only able to crack the starting lineup 1 time his first two seasons ....

Porter wasn't able to crack the starting lineup till his second year ......

[bendsteel]

it is easy to take a player with a small sample size and make him look like a bust ....


I think we all agree Bell is one of ( perhaps the best ) RB in the league right now ... but looking at the last 3 games he played in he had 48 carries for 130 yards ( 2.7 YPC ) under that sample size not many people would say he was very good , but we know better based on the 3 weeks prior to that 485 yards rushing on 80 carries ( over 6 YPC )

OLB is normally the longest venture from Draft date to success date in the scheme we have ran , toss in an injury that sidelines you half a season its no wonder he has not shown dividends to this point ...

will he moving forward ? its anyone's guess we have seen plenty of high picks at the pos not pan out ( see Bruce Davis a second round pick ) 5 total career tackles and 1 Forced fumble total his entire career stat line

I am soooo glad that I don`t suck that bad at my job. I`m sure most us us would be unemployed.

[Mojouw]

it is easy to take a player with a small sample size and make him look like a bust ....


I think we all agree Bell is one of ( perhaps the best ) RB in the league right now ... but looking at the last 3 games he played in he had 48 carries for 130 yards ( 2.7 YPC ) under that sample size not many people would say he was very good , but we know better based on the 3 weeks prior to that 485 yards rushing on 80 carries ( over 6 YPC )

OLB is normally the longest venture from Draft date to success date in the scheme we have ran , toss in an injury that sidelines you half a season its no wonder he has not shown dividends to this point ...

will he moving forward ? its anyone's guess we have seen plenty of high picks at the pos not pan out ( see Bruce Davis a second round pick ) 5 total career tackles and 1 Forced fumble total his entire career stat line

Top 20 all-time Pittsburgh Steelers sack leaders:
(Through the 2010 season)
#1 - Jason Gildon - 77
#2 - Joey Porter - 60


Gildon was only able to crack the starting lineup 1 time his first two seasons ....

Porter wasn't able to crack the starting lineup till his second year ......

I totally get that Jones has too little of track record to definitely say anything one way or the other. But look at those graphs...Jones has athleticism on par with Michael Sam.

My point is that while the jury is definitely still out on Jones, it is hard to be an elite (justifying a first round draft selection) pass rusher when you are simply not very athletically gifted compared to those you are competing against. Jones will have to rely on technique and scheme rather than simply winning his individual match-up. That is a much harder road to take.

Like I have said before, Jones seems coachable, appears to work hard, etc, but I just don't see the raw material for Porter, Harrison, Butler, etc to mold into anything.

[Dwinsgames]

I totally get that Jones has too little of track record to definitely say anything one way or the other. But look at those graphs...Jones has athleticism on par with Michael Sam.

My point is that while the jury is definitely still out on Jones, it is hard to be an elite (justifying a first round draft selection) pass rusher when you are simply not very athletically gifted compared to those you are competing against. Jones will have to rely on technique and scheme rather than simply winning his individual match-up. That is a much harder road to take.

Like I have said before, Jones seems coachable, appears to work hard, etc, but I just don't see the raw material for Porter, Harrison, Butler, etc to mold into anything.

we will have to wait and see , Metrics never tell the whole story , they are very similar to stats ... meaning sometimes they lie

I am guessing Hines Ward never put up great metrics either and he turned out ok ..........

we have to hold out hope , because right now that is all we have

[one side only]

This snippet from 2013 is pretty interesting. http://pit.scout.com/story/1315502-o...-progress?s=68

Keith Butler had high hopes for J. Jones, but said "But he's got to have a couple of rushes. He can't have all hand slaps, all getting on the edge of people."

Can say the same thing today.

[fansince'76]

If you think I will let a blanket insult of anyone here that doesn't agree with you slid by, your wrong. Please back away from any such attempts in the future.

Consider the source, Ed. He's a clown. His amusement value has pretty much run out here, though...

[Craic]

"Athletic ability" is one thing, but it only gets you so far. Let me switch gears. There were a set of brothers who grew up on a farm. They weren't terribly talented at their sport, but they grew up with a work ethic that you busted your ass day and night. That work ethic followed them everywhere the went—even into the NHL. Not once was a Sutter brother a top talent on a team. More likely, they were probably in the bottom third to bottom fourth of talent on any team they were on, however, all of them had good, strong NFL careers. Why? Because they had heart.

Metrics only give possibility, they never tell the story.

[Count Steeler]

Wasn't Lambert too "small" to play Middle LB?

How did that work out?

That being said, Jones has a long way to go to show the tenacity and heart of a champion.

[Steeldude]

"Athletic ability" is one thing, but it only gets you so far. Let me switch gears. There were a set of brothers who grew up on a farm. They weren't terribly talented at their sport, but they grew up with a work ethic that you busted your ass day and night. That work ethic followed them everywhere the went—even into the NHL. Not once was a Sutter brother a top talent on a team. More likely, they were probably in the bottom third to bottom fourth of talent on any team they were on, however, all of them had good, strong NFL careers. Why? Because they had heart.

Metrics only give possibility, they never tell the story.

Yes, but I don't see any work ethic coming from Jones. He stated working out is his last choice for improving.

All remains to be seen. IMO, so far it doesn't look good for Jones, but I am still hoping to see a gigantic leap in improvement.

[Mojouw]

Excellent points about metrics and numbers not telling the whole story. Bottom line for me is these are the #'s that a first round pass rusher needs to put up:

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...W/WareDe99.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...M/MillVo00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...S/SuggTe99.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...M/MattCl99.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...I/IrviBr00.htm

All of those players (except Irvin - due to his part time role) were putting up double digit sacks by their first or second season. If Jarvis is available to play 16 games this season and he does not, then he is a "bust" as the 17th pick overall. He may still have a long career as a contributor, even a starter. My basic point is that all the game tape, the measurements of "athletic ability", whatever point to Jones having this guys career -- http://www.pro-football-reference.co...E/EnglLa99.htm -- way more than they do any of the people I linked to above.

[BigNastyDefense]

If athletic ability alone got the job done, then there wouldn't be so many first round busts.

I think JJ was on his way to a nice season before a freak wrist injury ruined his season.

Moving to the opposite side could help, he wouldn't be facing left tackles with Harrison presumed to be starting in his normal OLB position.

If he gets hurt again this year and doesn't start at least 12 games, then I will call him a bust. But just remember, most players don't blossom in the NFL until their third year. So I want to see what he does this year before labeling him anything.

[Dwinsgames]

bust is a mighty strong word , and the primary reason I guess I despise it so much is it reflects on the player more than the Organization ... The player does not select his draft slotting or put a gun to anyone's head forcing them to select them ... these teams invest a ton of money in " qualified " GM's , Scouts and coaches to look at the players and make decisions yet when the player fails to meet the fans expectation it is them the player that takes 99% of the brunt of the abuse and negative terms thrown at them ...

place the blame where it belongs , the 95% of the time the organization FAILED if the player does not turn out as anticipated

[Steeldude]

bust is a mighty strong word , and the primary reason I guess I despise it so much is it reflects on the player more than the Organization ... The player does not select his draft slotting or put a gun to anyone's head forcing them to select them ... these teams invest a ton of money in " qualified " GM's , Scouts and coaches to look at the players and make decisions yet when the player fails to meet the fans expectation it is them the player that takes 99% of the brunt of the abuse and negative terms thrown at them ...

place the blame where it belongs , the 95% of the time the organization FAILED if the player does not turn out as anticipated

Then again a first round player usually holds out for a certain amount of money to be met. To me the player is saying he will perform just pay him. The player, with the help of his agent, is selling himself as the solution to a team's problem. Now of course there are many times when a team puts a player in a scheme or position he isn't quite cut out for.

[fansince'76]

bust is a mighty strong word , and the primary reason I guess I despise it so much is it reflects on the player more than the Organization ... The player does not select his draft slotting or put a gun to anyone's head forcing them to select them ... these teams invest a ton of money in " qualified " GM's , Scouts and coaches to look at the players and make decisions yet when the player fails to meet the fans expectation it is them the player that takes 99% of the brunt of the abuse and negative terms thrown at them ...

place the blame where it belongs , the 95% of the time the organization FAILED if the player does not turn out as anticipated

Then there is plenty of failure on the teams' part - every team. How many players taken in the first round ever really play up to their draft position? Seems to me not many. And the number of misses probably increases exponentially after the first round on a year-by-year basis.

For a variety of reasons, most collegiate players simply don't make the jump. Despite all of the study and resources poured into it, and despite all the effort to turn drafting into some sort of "science," at the end of the day the NFL Draft is still just a crap shoot mixed with a whole bunch of educated guesstimating and "gut feelings." If I had a nickel for every "can't miss" prospect who wound up washing out of the league, I'd have retired years ago. For example, remember all the so-called "experts" predicting that Ryan Leaf would be a better NFL QB than Peyton Manning? I do. This also explains why every so often there is a Richard Sherman in the 5th round and a Tom Brady in the 6th. Doesn't happen often, but if drafting truly were the "science" some try to make it out to be, it would never happen at all.

Not to mention the absolute slew of high-round picks that actually do stick around for a number of years but wind up being no more than role players - I think most teams are expecting a bit more than a role player when they submit their 1st/2nd round selections on draft day.

This is why I don't spend much time grousing over missed picks. Even though they've whiffed more often than usual over the last few years, I still think the Steelers are right more often than most other teams in that department. When they start missing on literally every pick for years on end (see: pretty much the entire first half of the 1980s outside of Louis Lipps) and wind up with a roster like this as a result of it, then I'll probably join the chorus calling for Colbert's head.

[86WARD]

Then again a first round player usually holds out for a certain amount of money to be met.

Not any more...lol

[katmandu]

I think JJ was on his way to a nice season before a freak wrist injury ruined his season.

Moving to the opposite side could help, he wouldn't be facing left tackles with Harrison presumed to be starting in his normal OLB position.

If he gets hurt again this year and doesn't start at least 12 games, then I will call him a bust. But just remember, most players don't blossom in the NFL until their third year. So I want to see what he does this year before labeling him anything.

I agree for the most part.

People constantly under-value the effects of an injury on a player's career.

Also, if Jarvis gets hurt again this year, that's just shiitty luck IMHO. UNLESS !! it's due to lack of conditioning or an absolutely moronic play that got himself hurt.

A Professional athlete getting injured during the course of their play is like a NASCAR driver's car getting wrecked during a race ! SHIT HAPPENS people and to say a particular athlete is "INJURY PRONE" is absolute bullshit.

Now, if Jarvis happens to play most of all the (16) games THIS year and sucks, then and only then will I call him a Draft BUST.

[Count Steeler]

Is he playing basketball?

[LLT]

Well....everyone thought Vince Williams was a wasted draft pick and he came back to show that when healthy he had above averaged skills. I am going to withhold judgment on Jones until I see what he does with a healthy season.

...and I might point out that Cameron Heyward was drafted in 2011 and didn't become a full time starter until the third game of 2013.

Just saying.

[Steeldude]

Well....everyone thought Vince Williams was a wasted draft pick and he came back to show that when healthy he had above averaged skills. I am going to withhold judgment on Jones until I see what he does with a healthy season.

...and I might point out that Cameron Heyward was drafted in 2011 and didn't become a full time starter until the third game of 2013.

Just saying.

Yes, but Williams was a 6th round pick.

With Heyward and Williams you at least saw some physical ability. I have yet to see much from Jones. I will of course hope for the best, but it doesn't look good so far.

I think splitting time with Harrison will benefit both of them. It will keep Harrison fresh later into the season and Jones will gain experience.

[Dwinsgames]

Then there is plenty of failure on the teams' part - every team. How many players taken in the first round ever really play up to their draft position? Seems to me not many. And the number of misses probably increases exponentially after the first round on a year-by-year basis.

For a variety of reasons, most collegiate players simply don't make the jump. Despite all of the study and resources poured into it, and despite all the effort to turn drafting into some sort of "science," at the end of the day the NFL Draft is still just a crap shoot mixed with a whole bunch of educated guesstimating and "gut feelings." If I had a nickel for every "can't miss" prospect who wound up washing out of the league, I'd have retired years ago. For example, remember all the so-called "experts" predicting that Ryan Leaf would be a better NFL QB than Peyton Manning? I do. This also explains why every so often there is a Richard Sherman in the 5th round and a Tom Brady in the 6th. Doesn't happen often, but if drafting truly were the "science" some try to make it out to be, it would never happen at all.

Not to mention the absolute slew of high-round picks that actually do stick around for a number of years but wind up being no more than role players - I think most teams are expecting a bit more than a role player when they submit their 1st/2nd round selections on draft day.

This is why I don't spend much time grousing over missed picks. Even though they've whiffed more often than usual over the last few years, I still think the Steelers are right more often than most other teams in that department. When they start missing on literally every pick for years on end (see: pretty much the entire first half of the 1980s outside of Louis Lipps) and wind up with a roster like this as a result of it, then I'll probably join the chorus calling for Colbert's head.

pretty much my point ... except ....... Colbert publicly stated a few years back after the 4th round he is looking for practice squad players , I do not have a link because it was on TV but I am sure someone printed it someplace ...

I do not subscibe to that methodology every pick should IMO be used to better the team and create a greater level of competition for jobs and consequently you end up with a deeper squad ..part of our problem is squandered picks in the mid to late rounds ..sure once in a blue moon you walk away with a hidden gem but you should never leave greater talent on the board for a pet project

[Psycho Ward 86]

pretty much my point ... except ....... Colbert publicly stated a few years back after the 4th round he is looking for practice squad players , I do not have a link because it was on TV but I am sure someone printed it someplace ...

I do not subscibe to that methodology every pick should IMO be used to better the team and create a greater level of competition for jobs and consequently you end up with a deeper squad ..part of our problem is squandered picks in the mid to late rounds ..sure once in a blue moon you walk away with a hidden gem but you should never leave greater talent on the board for a pet project

SMDH....if that is true, my god have i lost a lot of respect for colbert