that is way more people than needed to look at a 3rd -4th round pick in Golden , they can not possibly think Ray will be there at 22 ....
what is the brain trust thinking ??? is this going to be one of those years we give picks away to move up ???
Ray is hell of a player but man we need the picks
Colbert , Tomlin , Joey Porter ( his forehead anyways ) Butler ... is that Brandon Hunt also in the pic ?
I wouldn't thing so. To get Ray we would have to give up enough that we would simply have to hope on a late CB. Unless they are thinking of using next years number one. Will have to take a good look and see who may be drawing that much interest, but who knows what they are thinking.
Maybe they just all needed to get out of the office.
AML
Ray is really the only guy they could have been there for, but I think they were just in town for a giant dope deal and this was their cover. And then they were smoking the dope, because there's no way they're getting that guy with pick #22, and trading up would be so costly I can hardly think of anything dumber.
I've seen mock drafts with him going as high as #5 overall. So we'd basically have to trade our entire draft or next year's first-round pick. No player is worth two first-round picks, except possibly a near-lock franchise QB.
Since we're probably going to ignore DT, our needs are CB and safety, and we can probably get good players at both in the first two rounds with a little luck. But since we'll probably ignore those also, I guess OLB is where it's going to be. Offensive lineman in the second. Hooray.
See you Space Cowboy ...
No no no, you see, this is all part of the Colbert brain trust. Team officials are going to make obvious overtures toward top-flight OLBs. That way, once Shane Ray is gone, we're obviously going to take Gregory, Beasley, Dupree, one of these guys, right?
(teehee. so other teams will make a run on them leaving Danny Shelton to fall right into our laps)
Originally Posted by Steelerette
no offense but that would be the worst use of a first round pick we could make ( outside of punter or kicker ) and I value a solid NT but spending a 1st round pick for a guy who is going to see 30 snaps a game ( if he is lucky ) is a waste in my eyes , I want more of a return than that ...also its about our 5th greatest need behind OLB , CB, S and Tackle ( some may even say TE and RB ahead of NT ) McCullers showed enough to let him have a shot , a full off season of work and full camp he should be even better ....
I love Shane Ray as a prospect but he is no sure thing either , he does have some questions marks in his game and some have even compared him to Jarvis Jones ( lack of rush moves ) and he is not the most powerful rusher but he has an Elite first step ... its all a gamble ...
this years draft may have the most diverse rankings in recent memory .. player rankings are literally all over the place so much so that most in depth mocks have ( as example ) Utah CB Rowe as a 4th round prospect , today I seen him mocked by a highly respected draft guy as a 1st round pick ... once you get past 15ish the players are all so close in talent from there to maybe 50-70 depends on scheme and what you like from the player in your system ....
gonna be interesting and as I said elsewhere we wil probably all have more WTF moments in this draft than any in recent history
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cf...nfl-mock-draft
Glad you made the comparison of Ray to J. Jones. Ray is a classic tweener that has used his athleticism to get around collegiate offensive tackles. He is too small to set the edge against the run, and doesn't disengage well from blockers. He is much, much quicker than Jones, so if he can use his burst of speed to get to sack, hit, or hurry the quarterback, he might be worth the investment. I hope he is gone by the time Steelers pick.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...-can-be-an-olb
Not saying I would pick Danny Shelton specifically, but, if you look back to last season nobody had any idea at all we were going to be interested in Shazier. I wouldn't be "shocked" by another "shocker."
And as far as NT, I realize this isn't 2000 anymore but, 2001 draft, we had Von Oelhoffen and a young Kendrick Clancy, but we went ahead and picked Casey Hampton anyway. Stranger things have happened.
To me our biggest problem, and it's not even close, is CB. Which means we won't draft one
The Steelers converted Kimo to defensive end when they drafted Hampton. I don't think anybody at the time thought Kendrick Clancy had the potential of Dan McCullers. From a roster standpoint, what do you do with Mcclendon and McCullers if you draft a NT? They aren't keeping 3. McClendon could back up both end spots I suppose, but that isn't optimal. No need to draft a defensive tackle. With only 3 Wide Receiver on the roster, that is a bigger area of need than NT. Not than I'm advocating one in the first round.
An NT in first round would be a wasted draft pick!.....A NT plays only 30-50% of the time now in the NFL, and the biggest problem of the steelers is their defense against the pass
The Steelers need at least one OLB and CB....I lost confidence in Jarvis Jones
The thing is, I'm not advocating for Danny Shelton. I'm saying, watch, we're building hype for OLBs as a smokescreen because we're going to make a draft pick that nobody is going to have expected.
Why do people keep saying this? The offense only runs 30-40 passing plays per game, and you don't hear anyone saying we could do without Ben Roethlisberger or Antonio Brown.
NT being an exclusively run-stopping position is also about the dumbest thing I have heard all day, and I just got done reading an article about the California high-speed rail plan. When it's not the 4-WR spread against the dime, nose tackle is a critical position in defending the pass. Lineman no take blocky, pass rusher no get sacky - get it?
I am under no illusion that we're taking a NT in the first round, or even at all this draft, because past moves, and our lack of action this offseason when good free-agent DTs could be had cheaply, has made it pretty clear we're not doing anything with that position this year. Pretty stupid for a team that runs an aggressive 3-4, but whatever, that's what we're doing.
That aside, since our DB situation got worse instead of better, I'd put DT as our third-most pressing need ... CB, S, DT, OLB - with OLB being a VERY distant fourth. I would've put a backup RB higher before we dealt with that. If we would get off our asses and sign Harrison, this would be an excellent year to grab a prospect in the third round or so and give him a year to see if he develops. Of course, the drumbeat is going again and everyone is all hyped up for OLB, so I'm resigned to the fact that another OLB is probably what we're going to get.
See you Space Cowboy ...
and the bold is the dumbest thing I have read all day so I guess we are even in that department ... and first sentence is a classic apples to oranges argument Ben and AB are on the field on 99.99 percent of the offensive snaps , just because they are not throwing or catching does not take the threat of it away , there is a huge difference in being a threat and being on the sidelines
1) no DB can cover 5 seconds in this league , with no improved pressure that is the kind of time they will have to cover because we simply do not have the guys on this roster to consistently bring the pressure so we damned sure better draft someone who can improve that aspect of this team ...
2) I do not believe we are in such dire need at S as most fans seem to think ... I think Golden is better than given credit , I also LOVE the pickup of Alden Darby this kid is a converted CB and proven Ball hawk at S ( can play anywhere in the secondary ) can run , hit and cover I believe he will not only make the roster but will make an impact when opportunity arises , I am a big fan of his game and was excited to get to interview him last year .... he was in a bad situation in San Diego that was the deepest part of their team S so I think he sticks here easily ... then there is Shamarko ( if he can ever stay healthy )
I agree with you completely, except that I don't think we're going to get enough pressure with a sub-par guy in the middle, no matter who we put in as an edge rusher. We can just keep churning and churning there, and burning up draft picks on OLB and getting half value for them as long as McLendon/Cam Thomas are getting shoved around on every play. It was even worse when we had a sub-par DE in Hood and really only one guy up front who could make any difference. But you need all three to be good. McCullers might be, but that's still a coin flip, and in any case, you need another guy because I don't think McLendon makes a good NT and Thomas just flat-out sucks at everything. The pass rushers we have would be a lot better IMO if you improved that one position. It might make a serviceable player out of Jones. It might be what we need to take the pressure off the DBs.
I don't see why we refuse to even give it a passing thought. If you're not going to even take NT seriously, why bother putting a stopgap guy out on the field. You'd be better off using a 4-3 or a 2-5. But again, our actions this offseason, or lack thereof, have made it pretty clear what we have in mind. Once again, we're going to try to play the 3-4 with no nose tackle. I really hope we turned out to hit the jackpot on McCullers, because if not, it's going to be another season with about 25 sacks, single-digit interceptions and few fumbles, and going "OMG the defense is so unlucky at getting turnovers." The nose tackle has a cascading effect that impacts everyone on the defense, and of all places, I would have thought people on this message board understood that over some sabermetriced-to-death New Football axiom.
See you Space Cowboy ...
The NT is not the reason of the lack of sacks of the Steelers since the NT is not there in passing situation!!!...This is only because the OLB are completely horrible...When your best OLB is 37 years old, you have a big problem in your pass rush !!!!
The secondary is the other problem, since the opposing QB can make quick passes against the Steelers since the secondary is awful
For the turnovers, it's not because of luck, especially than it's since 2011 this is a major problem!
oh I get it just fine ....
but it is not like we stay in base the majority of the time , in fact I would argue we may be out of base more often than we are actually in it ( so is 3-4 even truly the base def we run ? ) in theory it is but in principle it is not
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i actually think danny shelton will fall to us. we have to pick the guy this D needs a NT and he is gonna be a great one. wasting a 1st ronder on NT isnt crazy look at big snack not to shabby of a 1st round NT. i know i know CB CB CB, but Run D run D gotta keep the ILBers clean. I still think Kyle Wilson would be a great addition to the secondary. Anywhoo this draft is gonna be crazy i can feel it already!
For those i love i will sacrifice.
Si ventus non est, remiga
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Once again, I think what we'll see from this organization is BPA at either their pick, or by moving just a few picks up. If someone like Sheldon falls far enough, we might move up a couple picks to get him, but only if he's BPA on the board for our needs. That's the MO of this organization, and despite the naysayers (as I've shown in a post a month or two ago), this organization is still distinctly above average when it comes to the draftin the range of a good drafting team.
We simply got spoiled with the run of drafts starting with Plaxico (who, despite being a bit of a headcase, was still a very good player). Heck, looking at our first round picks since Tomlin, we're still 4-6, with Jones and Shazier not having enough work to be evaluated yet. Mendenhall and Hood being the only two bad picks, and both of those were low first round picks.
Second round isn't so bad either. Tuitt, Bell, Worilds was decent, and Woodley was a stud until injury overtook him and he couldn't get on the field or the gym enough. Heck, I'd say the jury is still out on Adams as well, and Gilbert may not light the world on fire, but he's more than serviceable. And then there's our third round pics over the last few years. Sean Spence (who before injury was lighting up everyone's eyes, and still looks to be pretty dang good), Markus Wheaton, Emmanuel Sanders, Keenan Lewis, and Mike Wallace. That's a nice healthy set of third rounders.
Most teams will only hit on 40 to 50 percent of first rounders and less than that thereafter, so we're definitely doing well. Sure, we aren't hitting on every draft pick, but we never have. Usually, since the shortened draft, we've hit on anywhere between 2 and 3 players, with a lucky fourth once in a while.
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Long story short. IF there is a run at CB and OLB AND Shelton falls to 22, then yes, we would grab a top 20 player like him over reaching for a position of greater need. HOWEVER....that's not going to happen.
That would mean that:
OLB's
Dante Fowler
Vic Beasley
Randy Gregory
Shane Ray
Alvin Dupree
Owamagbe Odighizuwa (if he passes medical)
and CB's
Trae Waynes
Kevin Johnson
Marcus Peters
P.J. Williams ....are all off the board.
Thats half of the picks before #22 for just 2 positions. None of the those players mentioned would probably be passed over for a NT that I rank as my #16 overall player. The Need/Value isn't there.
"I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"
-- Jack Lambert --
Sheesh look what I started. I'll say this. I think McLendon makes a better DE than NT, so the move might shore up two positions, and perhaps part of the reason we're not in our base defense so much is because... we can't be, because we don't have the NT. Which hopefully McCullers will serve to change.
But honestly I was just trying to say, watch, we're making a big deal of looking at OLB because we're going to pick something else that nobody ever would have expected. And, as evidenced by this thread... it seems like Shelton is in that lot of "picks nobody would have expected" which is why I used him as the example.
- - - Updated - - -
For the record I would hate the Shane Ray pick. Not because I don't want OLBs. But because the dude will get crunched in the big leagues... come on.
The nickel has become the de facto base defense, not because of the lack of a NT, but dictated by what the offense is doing. Even Hampton lumbered off the field on passing downs. Now, almost every down is a passing down.
For the 809th time I'm not even trying to say we should draft an NT, I guess I know better than to try to underline a point with an example here, all I am trying to say is that I'd like to bet we're looking at Shane Ray as a smokescreen and everyone jumps down my throat.
Christ, fuck this board, I'm done posting here.
OK, well I guess the issue is I just value a nose tackle differently from you, which I really have no hard feelings about. It's all hypothetical at this point anyway, since the team has made it clear it's made up its mind on the subject.
In any case, it looks like the OLB people are most likely to get their wish, although I would be happier if it was a DB of some kind, preferably corner.
See you Space Cowboy ...
woah really ?
I think you are taking this way to personal , looking back over it I do not see anywhere that anyone abused you over what you have said just point and counterpoint discussion .....
hopefully you are just having a bad day and it will pass ... if in any way I have offended you then my apologies but I do not see where that happened
Come on, don't do that. I always thought people liked you here.
See you Space Cowboy ...
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Steelerette, if anything you sparked a new surprisingly good discussion on a long running topic of debate amongst Steeler Nation, which I've enjoyed reading during our typically slow and anemic offseason leading up to the draft. I see nothing personal here, just good debate. I hope you'll agree and stick around, I certainly have enjoyed your posts.
Steelerette, you are one of our most valued and respected posters. You have your own ideas, and are not afraid to post them. I have not always agreed with you, but can see that you pull thought into your post, and respect that. That is just one of the high points of your presents here. I for one, and many others, would miss you if you left us. I hope you have second thoughts on not posting on this board. On your board.
AML
BTW - I wouldn't call that Motley Crew a "Force."
Enthroned Into The Good Old Boys Club - 2024
Steelerette seems miffed that she was misunderstood. She kept using nose tackle anecdotes to make her larger point about the possibility the Steelers will go against conventional wisdom and select a player from a position other than OLB. I understood her point, but her anecdotes became discussion points in themselves . . . shocking; never before seen at SU!
Have to agree with her about Shane Ray. He is another great college player without a position in the NFL.
Last edited by one side only; 03-21-2015 at 07:55 AM.
I wont go so far as to call Ray a bust BEFORE HE TAKES A SNAP . he does lack moves but he does not lack explosiveness nor does he lack a elite first step , those two things alone can generate pressure on a QB probably not consistently but he is young and has time to learn and build his game , there are no complete players in this draft ( and not finished products in any draft )
the question is can he / will he develop more moves , will he become a more complete player ? those are answers we just do not know ... But I love the potential , you can not teach that first step ...
Many gasped at WVU Bruce Irvin going to Seattle early ( not the biggest most powerful OLB either ) he has done ok for himself
Bust is a strong word. Shane Ray may become a great player. My point was the college game produces players whose skills do not directly translate to the pro game, due to differences in the way the game is played, and the differences in skill level. I remember watching highlights of Jarvis Jones at Georgia and thinking he was a one trick pony. This happens at a lots of positions, not just the tweener DE/OLB. The concern with Marcus Mariota is he rarely had to progress beyond his first read and his receivers were often wide open. Will he be able to read defenses and fit throws into tight windows?
The same type of questions exist for players like Shane Ray. Will he be able to demonstrate skills beyond that of speed rushing past the offensive tackle? To be successful in the Steelers system, he must play the run, cover receivers, and decide what he is supposed to do and when. That is where I have to defer to those who are paid to make those evaluations.
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