Making a comparison: Steelers-Patriots

[Lady Steel]

Comparing the Steelers to the Super Bowl champion New England Patriots.


The Patriots arrived at the NFL Combine as the NFL’s champions and as the NFL’s gold standard, but before departing for Indianapolis Steelers General Manager Kevin Colbert made it clear he wasn’t interested in such comparisons.

“We don’t get to compare ourselves to anyone else but Baltimore in my opinion because (the Ravens) are the ones that eliminated us,” Colbert said.

Those broaching the subject in Indy acknowledged New England’s position atop the NFL’s mountain but cautioned against trying to become the Patriots of 2015.




http://www.steelers.com/news/article...e-761f3f610c7c

[fansince'76]

Comparisons between the Patriots and Steelers, for example:

Total Offense:
Patriots - No. 11 (18th rushing, ninth passing)
Steelers - No. 2 (16th rushing, second passing)

Total Defense:
Patriots - No. 13 (ninth rushing, 17th passing)
Steelers - No. 18 (sixth rushing, 27th passing)

Special Teams:
Patriots - No. 3
Steelers - No. 21
(according to special-teams rankings compiled annually in a 22-category survey by The Dallas Morning News)

Takeaway/Giveaway:
Patriots - T-No. 2
Steelers - T-No. 16

Takeaways:
Patriots - T-No. 11
Steelers - No. 23

Giveaways:
Patriots - T-No. 1
Steelers - No. 10

Red-Zone Offense:
Patriots - No. 9
Steelers - No. 18

Red-Zone Defense:
Patriots - T-No. 6
Steelers - No. 18

Forgot one...

Illegally tampered with/deflated footballs:
Patriots - 11
Steelers - 0

[Count Steeler]

Forgot one...

Illegally tampered with/deflated footballs:
Patriots - 11
Steelers - 0

And that's just 1 game. Probably more like 176 to 0.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Cheating. Not cheating.

/Thread

[Mojouw]

As it has been the past 3-4 seasons - it is the takeaways/giveaways that are dooming the Steelers. That and the inability to consistently get off the field on 3rd and medium to long.

[Crash]

The Steelers employ Todd Haley.

The Patriots don't, and they won the Super Bowl.

End of discussion.

[Hawkman]

The Steelers employ Todd Haley.

The Patriots don't, and they won the Super Bowl.

End of discussion.

WOW!! What have you been snorting?

[Crash]

WOW!! What have you been snorting?

Nothing. I see Todd Haley for the fraud he is.

9 of 17 games the 2014 Steelers scored 20 points or less on offense.

7 of 17 games the 2011 Steelers scored 20 points or less on offense.

Bruce Arians was fired. Why is Todd Haley being hailed as a hero?

[Hawkman]

Nothing. I see Todd Haley for the fraud he is.

9 of 17 games the 2014 Steelers scored 20 points or less on offense.

7 of 17 games the 2011 Steelers scored 20 points or less on offense.

Bruce Arians was fired. Why is Todd Haley being hailed as a hero?

You might want to check the defensive stats from those same two years. I don't think Haley is a hero (not many people do). He was brought in to run the ball MORE EFFECTIVELY and keep Ben from getting beat up. Both are happening.

To say we didn't win the Super Bowl because our OC is Haley.......well......as I said before.

[Crash]

You might want to check the defensive stats from those same two years. I don't think Haley is a hero (not many people do). He was brought in to run the ball MORE EFFECTIVELY and keep Ben from getting beat up. Both are happening.

You know what else is happening?

They don't win anything anymore.

Ben is still getting hit, he's still taking shots.

Only now? He's basically been irrelevant for three years.

You talk about defense? Read this, from October 2012, a mere 5 games into the Haley Era:

http://m.nbcsports.com/content/kacsm...ype-steelers-d

To say we didn't win the Super Bowl because our OC is Haley.......well......as I said before.

The Steelers will NEVER win a Super Bowl with Todd Haley's offense. History has shown you may not win a playoff game either.

He didn't in Kansas City, and he hasn't in Pittsburgh.

[silver & black]

Steelers: 6 legit SB's.

Patr*ots: 0 legit SB's.

[Hawkman]

You know what else is happening?

They don't win anything anymore.

Ben is still getting hit, he's still taking shots.

Only now? He's basically been irrelevant for three years.

You talk about defense? Read this, from October 2012, a mere 5 games into the Haley Era:

http://m.nbcsports.com/content/kacsm...ype-steelers-d



The Steelers will NEVER win a Super Bowl with Todd Haley's offense. History has shown you may not win a playoff game either.

He didn't in Kansas City, and he hasn't in Pittsburgh.

Funny.....he made it to a Superbowl with AZ, and but for a brilliant throw/catch by BB and Holmes....AND a 100 yard int run for TD by Silverback....he would have won a Superbowl.

[salamander]

You know what else is happening?

They don't win anything anymore.

Ben is still getting hit, he's still taking shots.

Only now? He's basically been irrelevant for three years.

You talk about defense? Read this, from October 2012, a mere 5 games into the Haley Era:

http://m.nbcsports.com/content/kacsm...ype-steelers-d



The Steelers will NEVER win a Super Bowl with Todd Haley's offense. History has shown you may not win a playoff game either.

He didn't in Kansas City, and he hasn't in Pittsburgh.

Pretty sure Haley is not the only reason we haven't won it all recently. The defense, for example, hasn't exactly been top notch in recent years not to mention we always get hit with injuries to key players...amongst other things.

[Crash]

Funny.....he made it to a Superbowl with AZ

Running Ken Whisenhunt's three wide base offense. The same three wide base offense Whiz ran in his one season in San Diego with Philip Rivers.

The offense we run now? Is Haley's KC 2009-2011 offense. A three year Chiefs offense that didn't win a playoff game there either.

So Haley's ran this offense the last six years in two different cities, and has yet to win a playoff game.

[Mojouw]

This is the most nonsense filled thread we have had around these parts in a long time.

It is almost like it is based around one person's biased opinion and refuses to deal with facts. Facts like Haley's offense (he was the offensive coordinator, so he gets the credit) ranked 7th and 3rd in points when he was in Arizona and 12th and 4th in yards. In KC, they never ranked that high overall, but put up good rushing totals. Might have something to do with the drop-off in QB talent and the existence of Jamaal Charles.

Look is Haley the best o-coordinator ever? Nope. Is he the reason the Steelers are losing games? Not really. There is enough actual obvious problems with the Pittsburgh Steelers as they are currently constructed that there is no need to start looking under every rock and branch for other problems.

[Crash]

It is almost like it is based around one person's biased opinion and refuses to deal with facts.

FACT! Todd Haley has ran this offense for the last 6 years, and hasn't won a playoff game.

FACT! In Todd Haley's offense he has taken a QB who came out of the gate fast, and made him irrelevant.

1st quarter TD's by Ben after three years with each OC:

Whiz: 20

Arians: 16

Haley: 11

Not a coincidence that this team has won the least under Haley's system.

Haley's too busy mixing, matching, subbing, in, out, in, out, with his players that there is no flow to the offense.

If he wasn't Dick Haley's son? He wouldn't even be in the NFL.

[Count Steeler]

FACT! Todd Haley has ran this offense for the last 6 years, and hasn't won a playoff game.

FACT! In Todd Haley's offense he has taken a QB who came out of the gate fast, and made him irrelevant.

1st quarter TD's by Ben after three years with each OC:

Whiz: 20

Arians: 16

Haley: 11

Not a coincidence that this team has won the least under Haley's system.

Haley's too busy mixing, matching, subbing, in, out, in, out, with his players that there is no flow to the offense.

If he wasn't Dick Haley's son? He wouldn't even be in the NFL.


[/COLOR]

Really is such a shame that Haley is our OC. Afterall, our defense is still a premier stopping machine. And if Haley wasn't our OC, Bell doesn't get injured and he is able to play in the playoff game.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Crash]

The defense was never that good.

Again, for those who didn't read this the first time below:

http://m.nbcsports.com/content/kacsm...ype-steelers-d

The difference now? Is we get too far behind because we are too busy trying to milk a 60 minute clock on offense rather than scoring points.

If any other OC pulled half the garbage Todd Haley has in three years? They'd be long gone.

[Mojouw]

FACT! Todd Haley has ran this offense for the last 6 years, and hasn't won a playoff game.

FACT! In Todd Haley's offense he has taken a QB who came out of the gate fast, and made him irrelevant.

1st quarter TD's by Ben after three years with each OC:

Whiz: 20

Arians: 16

Haley: 11

Not a coincidence that this team has won the least under Haley's system.

Haley's too busy mixing, matching, subbing, in, out, in, out, with his players that there is no flow to the offense.

If he wasn't Dick Haley's son? He wouldn't even be in the NFL.


[/COLOR]

Or Haley helped Roethlisberger put up his best statistical season ever (http://www.pro-football-reference.co...R/RoetBe00.htm).

Or Haley has posted 3 straight years of increasingly lower sack % (see 4th column from the right in above link) and any of the Haley led seasons would qualify as the lowest for Ben's entire career.

Or the 2014 Steelers were 7th in yards and 2nd in points (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/) better than any other season in Roethlisberger's career.

Or the team has ranked 28th, 24th, 20th 16th in takeaway/giveaway ratio since their last SB appearance (same link as above) HINT - a high rank in this category is bad.

By Pro Football Reference Metrics (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/), in the second to last column, after two years of being pretty damn bad on offense, Haley put it together this year and the team was farther above the league offensive average than they have been since 1979. While the team also posted the LOWEST defensive totals (last column in the same chart) they have since 1991 (also known as Noll's last year).

Like I said, not saying that Haley is some kind of offensive guru, but he certainly isn't the reason the 2014 Steelers lost. It is primarily a lack of sacks, INTs, fumbles, and 3rd down stops on defense. Combine that with the 2 times per game head scratcher on offense and the reasons for this team's record and lack of recent playoff success is not very mysterious.

The harsh truth is that Steelers have not had a great roster for a few years now. They appear to have patched up the offensive side. Now one has to hope they can perform a similar facelift on the other side of the ball.

[Crash]

Or Haley helped Roethlisberger put up his best statistical season ever

2007 Ben: 32 TD passes in 404 attempts.

2014: Ben: 32 TD passes in 608 attempts.

What's better?

2007 Ben: 104.1 QB rating

2014 Ben: 103.3 QB rating.

Again, what's better?

Or Haley has posted 3 straight years of increasingly lower sack %

Sacks aren't the issue. Ben is still getting hit.

Or the 2014 Steelers were 7th in yards and 2nd in points (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/) better than any other season in Roethlisberger's career.

So you value garbage time yards, and points, when hopelessly behind, more, than taking the foot of the gas after getting big leads?

Wonderful, Ben is now 2010-2014 Philip Rivers.

Or the team has ranked 28th, 24th, 20th 16th in takeaway/giveaway ratio since their last SB appearance

Why did you not post 2009? Because that shows the same alleged issues they have NOW on defense, that they had then BEFORE Todd Haley got here.

The difference? Is that Arians attacked defenses early. Where as Todd Haley's trying to run the ball.

[Mojouw]

2007 Ben: 32 TD passes in 404 attempts.

2014: Ben: 32 TD passes in 608 attempts.

What's better?

2007 Ben: 104.1 QB rating

2014 Ben: 103.3 QB rating.

Again, what's better?



[/COLOR]Sacks aren't the issue. Ben is still getting hit.



So you value garbage time yards, and points, when hopelessly behind, more, than taking the foot of the gas after getting big leads?

Wonderful, Ben is now 2010-2014 Philip Rivers.



Why did you not post 2009? Because that shows the same alleged issues they have NOW on defense, that they had then BEFORE Todd Haley got here.

The difference? Is that Arians attacked defenses early. Where as Todd Haley's trying to run the ball.

I didn't post 2009 because I used the team's last SB appearance as a logical stopping and starting point for any statistical trends. As playoff wins/SB's seem to be the crux of the issue here. As to the argument about Arians, the only season his offense with paired with defense that did not generate takeaways (2009 - ranked 20th in turnover/giveaway ratio) the Steelers went 9-7 and missed the playoffs. But at least they attacked teams early that year.

As to the 2010-2014 Rivers argument, I thought Whisenhunt's offense was a good thing. Remember this from two posts ago?

"Running Ken Whisenhunt's three wide base offense. The same three wide base offense Whiz ran in his one season in San Diego with Philip Rivers."

I mean Whisenhunt is the whole key to the AZ offensive success and 2013 Philip River's success. So I guess those stats were padded with garbage time fluff as well?

And yes. You are correct, Roethlisberger had an amazing season in 2007. One of his best. But the Steelers lost a WC game that year to Jacksonville. So if all we are concerned about is playoff success - then what is the point?

I for one like Arians arial circus. Drove me nuts sometimes and put the defense in some tight spots, but it was aggressive, innovative, and often fun to watch. Bottom line is Arians got pushed out the door and Haley was given a mandate to keep the franchise QB healthy and upright and run the ball more effectively. Both of those he has done. At the same time, they have almost totally revamped the offensive skill position players. Again, Haley is not the reason that this team is losing football games.

You have yet to prove that Haley is the problem. Only that your personal preferences on offensive play calling are different than Haley's. Great. Fantastic. So are mine. What's the point again?

One last thing, the 2014 Steelers were 4th in the league in drives that ended in points. Isn't scoring points kinda the whole thing with offense? We can argue all day about the best way to do it, but the bottom line is the team that scores the most points wins.

[Crash]

Haley's micromanagement is the problem. He's too busy trying to be cute, rather than just use his talent.

The ONLY TIME this offense gets into any kind of rhythm is when they go hurry up, or it's last 2 minutes.

Why? The top 3 wides stay on the field, and no hopers like Spaeth, Johnson, DHB, Archer, and Palmer aren't.

If Haley would just stick with his same three WR's barring injury or a blow for a play or two? This offense would dominate.

But he's too obsessed with trying to trick you, rather than just line up and beat you.

[Crash]

So I guess those stats were padded with garbage time fluff as well?

Um, no, he was only there for one year, 19 of his 32 TD's were in the first half. 20 of 32 were in wins.

Rivers in 2013 was basically 2004-2005 Ben. Throw early and get out in front.

Ben had 12 TD passes in two wins in two weeks in 2014. In the other 9 wins? He had 13 TD passes. Mediocre.

Because Haley's too obsessed with trying to play his dink and dunk crap.

[Jaucer]

Stats be damned. They really don't tell the whole story. You can twist them whichever way you want depending on which ones you site and how they are calculated. Does less TD's mean the QB is doing worse or the receiving talent is worse or the play calling in the redzone is worse. Hell who of us fans know. We don't know what he players and coaches know. From a fan point of view, I have seen Ben getting the ball out quicker, a more balanced offense, weapons that can score from anywhere. The only negative is still the ineffectiveness in the redzone. Maybe that is due to the type of players they have, no big targets with good body shielding ability, or maybe it's scheme, or maybe dare I say it's Ben himself. All I know is that per both Ben's and Haley's quotes, Ben has had a lot more say in the offense and has more leeway to audible and call his own plays. So who is really to say who is to blame for the redzone woos? Haley, Ben, Tomlin, lack of play makers in a short yardage/compact D???

I just think it is unwise to point at Haley and say he is the reason why they haven't won a SB. It's like saying the reason the Browns never won a SB with Billicheat as a head coach was because of Billicheat but yet he is the reason they win in fucking NE. It's just not that simple.

Only thing I know is the offense in general appears to be much better the more Haley and Ben get on the same page.

Oh and don't feed the troll. Is that you SteelerCarl???

[Crash]

I just think it is unwise to point at Haley and say he is the reason why they haven't won a SB. I

Two examples of Haley, from 2013:

Steelers at Cincy, leading 3-0 with the ball. Ben throws that pass to Paulson, who fumbles, but is ruled down.

Ben tries to hurry his team to the LOS to run a play, he knew it was close. He also knew what a potential 10-0 lead might do.

What does Haley do? He's trying to sub his goal line package in, which means you have to allow Cincy to sub.

Gave them a chance to see the replay on the scoreboard, they challenge, they get the ball, they go down the field and score.

Example #2: Steelers at Baltimore.

Last drive of the game, the Steelers have 3rd down. What does Haley call? The same exact call, on the same exact spot of the field weeks earlier against the Lions, a pass to Will Johnson, that the Ravens snuffed out.

And here's the kicker. That was Johnson's LONE SNAP of the half. And Haley actually thought the Ravens didn't know that play was coming?

They win those two games? They win the Division.

If any other OC did what I listed above? He would have been canned. If Bruce Arians had 330 pound Mike Adams running a pass pattern from his own 20 yard line on 2nd and 10? He may have been shot. Having Ben line up at WR in the Wildcat so any DB can take a free run at him? Inexcusable.

But Toddy's Daddy got him his job. So he gets a free pass.

Steelers history since 1990 has shown, when you hire outsiders to run the offense? You don't win in the post season.

And Haley's continuing that sad tradition.

[86WARD]

[Crash]

You're right, I hate losing.

Apparently you care that a "Pittsburgh guy" runs the offense.

I also said this, on another forum before Todd Haley coached ONE GAME for this football team, and I quote:

"Haley is Dick LeBeau's worst nightmare. Because now, if his 4th quarter scheme continues to blow? He'll be the one getting the heat because they won't dare bash the Yinzer"


-Crash 6/28/2012


And that's exactly what happened, isn't it?

[86WARD]

I'm not the biggest Haley fan and at this point even less a Tomlin fan, but to put all the blame on Haley...it's a little much IMO...lol.

[fansince'76]

Not a big fan of Haley either. I think the improvement in the offense had more to do with the emergence of Bell and Bryant and vastly improved play by the O-line (thanks largely to Munchak) than anything Haley did. Still having a hard time looking past that 2nd Browns game where he completely took Ben out of the game (and, by proxy, AB) until we were down by 3 TDs.

However, is Haley the biggest problem with the team and the only thing holding it back? Nope.

[Crash]

Jets game too. 23 minutes of a 1st half were played until Ben was allowed to throw a pass longer than 7 yards.