Making a comparison: Steelers-Patriots

[X-Terminator]

The difference? Is that Arians attacked defenses early. Where as Todd Haley's trying to run the ball.

I have little love for Todd Haley, but I still don't think that was totally his call. AR2's mandate to run the ball more effectively had as much, or more, to do with this. At the same time, when you have a back as dynamic as Le'Veon Bell, why would you not try to get the ball into his hands as much as possible?

Poor game planning is the biggest problem I have with Haley. After 3 seasons, I have yet to see any consistency from him when it comes to game plans and attacking a team's weaknesses.

[Crash]

I have little love for Todd Haley, but I still don't think that was totally his call. AR2's mandate to run the ball more effectively had as much, or more, to do with this.

But here's the thing, they really don't. Art II's idea of running effectively is just to do it MORE.

The run game was blamed for the 2009 five game losing streak by Art II.

But anyone who actually watched those games? Knew how wrong Art II was.

And you could say this team has yet to recover from it.

[Mojouw]

But here's the thing, they really don't. Art II's idea of running effectively is just to do it MORE.

The run game was blamed for the 2009 five game losing streak by Art II.

But anyone who actually watched those games? Knew how wrong Art II was.

And you could say this team has yet to recover from it.

All of those statements have been debunked on this board and many other internet football sites.

The difference in the run game with a healthy Bell and a healthy o-lline is staggering.

Why were all those Bryant deep balls against single outside coverage backed by a lone high safety? Because the other safety was down in the box worried about the effective run game.

[Crash]

The difference in the run game with a healthy Bell and a healthy o-lline is staggering.

Haley had the same offensive line and RB's in 2012 that Arians had in 2011.

The run game dropped from 14th in 2011 to 26th in 2012.

Because his jumbo sets were too predictable.

Everyone talks about Bell's rushing in 2014, but 8 of his 16 games, were 65 yards or LESS. Mostly because he was put in the same , predictable, jumbo set garbage that the others were before he got here.

His REAL value, is his pass catching ability.

[86WARD]

Everyone talks about Bell's rushing in 2014, but 8 of his 16 games, were 65 yards or LESS. Mostly because he was put in the same , predictable, jumbo set garbage that the others were before he got here.

His REAL value, is his pass catching ability.


[/COLOR]

Not entirely true. Some of those games his carries were cut...almost in half at times compared to the ones he got over 65 yards. That "stat" you throw out here is a little deceiving...

[Crash]

Not deceiving at all. He'd start slow, he'd get hit, they'd stumble on offense, get behind, and then have to play catch up.

Three wides, a TE, Bell, and take him out every 3rd series.

Gives him more space, which means less congestion, which means less hits, and rests his legs.

Whiz and Arians ran Parker into the ground. Bell's on pace to be gone even faster than they were.

[Mojouw]

Haley had the same offensive line and RB's in 2012 that Arians had in 2011.

I hate that I have to do this. I end up sounding like the biggest apologist for the coaching staff, the FO, and the Steelers in general on so many threads around here. I really am not. It is just that things that are NOT facts infuriate me. You have the beginnings of a really interest argument about Haley's use of personnel groupings and whether or not the Steelers roster is built to provide effective play/players out of those groupings. Then you cut yourself off at the knees by leading off with stuff that isn't even true.

In 2011 the Steelers averaged 4.4 yards per rush on 434 attempts (http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/pit/2011.htm). Mendenhall had 228 of those attempts and Redman had another 110. The rest of the attempts (about 90) were distributed among guys that don't matter (all under 40 carries). Mendy averaged 4.1 per carry and Redman 4.4. This was the last year under Arians. In terms of balance, the offense had 434 rushing attempts against 539 passing attempts about a 55/45 percent split between passing and running.

In 2012 (http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/pit/2012.htm) the Steelers had 412 rushing attempts for 3.7 yard per carry - a 0.7 yards per carry drop. Pretty significant. That is because those carries were broken out like this:

Dywer 156 carries at 4.0 yards per attempt
Redman 110 carries at 3.7 yards per attempt
Mendenhall 51 carries at 3.6 yards per attempt
Rainey 26 carries at 3.9 yards per attempt

So we can decisively see that Haley was NOT operating with the same running backs. The set of backs Haley had due to injury and the failure of Rainey in the NFL was not very good. I think we all wanted Dwyer and Redman to prove that Mendenhall was overrated and unnecessary, but they clearly did not.

In fact Haley wasn't even operating with the same offensive line.

2011 roster here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Pi...n#Final_roster
2012 roster here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Pi..._season#Roster

One can argue that the 2012 line group was BETTER than the 2011 one, but you definitely can NOT say they were the same.

As to Bell's effectiveness, he did average 4.7 yards per attempt. Not too bad. As to his usage rate, it is bordering on the absurd. On that I think many around here would agree. Particularly because somewhere north of 350+ touches per year is where you tend to see RBs suddenly have Eddie George disease and their careers are cut short.

[Mojouw]

Not deceiving at all. He'd start slow, he'd get hit, they'd stumble on offense, get behind, and then have to play catch up.

Really? Here are Bell's per game stats: http://www.pro-football-reference.co...B/BellLe00.htm

He was under 65 yards 8 times and each time his carries were 20 or less. He also faced good run defenses in several of those games. (KC, Bal. x2, Jets, and Cinci). Other games the team screwed the pooch and had to abandon the run game.

But none of that really matters because it is about how the offense functions as a whole anyways. In 2014 the Steelers had 7 games were they rushed for less than 80 yards (http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/pit/2014.htm) they won 5 of them. So something was working. Bell's value is that he is, or at least can be, equally effective in both the run and pass game. Increasingly rare in the NFL. That means defenses can not key on the RB to determine offensive tendencies.

I personally could care less what individual player stats are. The 2014 Steelers offense put up massive #'s. However it did have some problems. Too dependent on one player to make it go (Bell) with no really second back developed. Considering the strides Bell made from 2013 to 2014, I am hoping the team can make similar strides in developing a secondary back.

[Crash]

The 2014 Steelers offense put up massive #'s.

They were inflated by 7 quarters in two weeks.

2011: 7 of 17 games 20 points or less.

2014: 9 of 17 games 20 points or less.

Why is the barometer for success lowered for Todd Haley?

That is because those carries were broken out like this:

Dywer 156 carries at 4.0 yards per attempt
Redman 110 carries at 3.7 yards per attempt
Mendenhall 51 carries at 3.6 yards per attempt
Rainey 26 carries at 3.9 yards per attempt

But that's Haley's issue. His constant rotations kill his run game. The ONLY time the run game looked solid in 2012 was when injuries forced him to stop the rotations against the Giants, at Cincy, and against the Redskins.

Stick with one guy, every 3rd series bring in the #2, and I would get a 3rd down back like Whiz and BA used and lesson Bell's workload.

And, as I've said, stop the jumbo nonsense. Scrap the garbage backup TE BS and spread teams out.

[Mojouw]

I give up. I get it. You want to go back to Arians offense.

I could point out that Haley's RB "rotation" in 2012 was due to a combination of injury and the well known fact that Dwyer was too fat to stay on the field for more than 2-3 plays at a time.

I could point out that the Steelers most effective strict "3rd down back" was Melwede Moore. I could point out that Bell does everything that Moore did well, only about three times as well. I could use that to prop up an argument that any offensive scheme where Bell isn't a 3 down back is kinda goofy and is exactly the type of over substitution and over thinking that you have been railing against.

I could also point out that Haley's use of jumbo sets and whatever else you were yelling about stabilized and went down a bit once Wheaton and Bryant (essentially both rookie players) were able to participate in enough of the offensive packages that the presence of the Spaeths, and Will Johnsons of the world were not as necessary. I could also point out that the games Matt Spaeth participated in, the running game was more effective because Spaeth 2.0 is a really good in-line blocking tight end.

But, you know, what, I won't. There is no point.

I surrender. Todd Haley sucks ass. He is just getting the benefit of the doubt because he is from Pittsburgh. The Steelers would be better off hiring you and your well honed offensive play calling skils. I bet you just kill it at Madden. Even on the hardest setting.

[Hawkman]

I give up. I get it. You want to go back to Arians offense.

I could point out that Haley's RB "rotation" in 2012 was due to a combination of injury and the well known fact that Dwyer was too fat to stay on the field for more than 2-3 plays at a time.

I could point out that the Steelers most effective strict "3rd down back" was Melwede Moore. I could point out that Bell does everything that Moore did well, only about three times as well. I could use that to prop up an argument that any offensive scheme where Bell isn't a 3 down back is kinda goofy and is exactly the type of over substitution and over thinking that you have been railing against.

I could also point out that Haley's use of jumbo sets and whatever else you were yelling about stabilized and went down a bit once Wheaton and Bryant (essentially both rookie players) were able to participate in enough of the offensive packages that the presence of the Spaeths, and Will Johnsons of the world were not as necessary. I could also point out that the games Matt Spaeth participated in, the running game was more effective because Spaeth 2.0 is a really good in-line blocking tight end.

But, you know, what, I won't. There is no point.

I surrender. Todd Haley sucks ass. He is just getting the benefit of the doubt because he is from Pittsburgh. The Steelers would be better off hiring you and your well honed offensive play calling skils. I bet you just kill it at Madden. Even on the hardest setting.

Damn Mojouw,

I gotta hand it to you, you made a much more gallant effort than I could. Every time I think about jumping in again, I realize that there is no point. Glad you've thrown in the towel. Save that energy for more worthwhile debates.

[Crash]

I give up. I get it. You want to go back to Arians offense.

You mean the offense that won two AFC titles, 3 division titles and a Super Bowl in five years?

I would take that in a minute.

We'll see soon enough, if Roethlisberger does as well.

The Steelers would be better off hiring you and your well honed offensive play calling skils.

I've won as many play playoff games as Todd Haley's system has since he's used it from 2009-2014.

When Haley plays it MY way and lets the talent decide the game? His offense dominates.

When he's too obsessed with trying to prove how smart HE is? They get waxed in the playoffs.

James Harrison running pass patterns? Mike Adams running pass patterns? The Wildcat?

C'mon, that's high school garbage. LOSERS do that. Golf coaches who think they know football do that.

He'll never be an OC again, once this team wises up and cans his ass.

[86WARD]

They won that Super Bowl despite Arians Bubble Screens...errrr...I mean "offense." Two plays. Bubble screen to your slowest WR or chuck it down the field to your fastest guy and hope he doesn't have to jump,for it.

[86WARD]

[COLOR=#333333]
James Harrison running pass patterns? Mike Adams running pass patterns? The Wildcat?

C'mon, that's high school garbage. LOSERS do that. Golf coaches who think they know football do that.

Funny you say that. The last two Super Bowl Champions have done plenty of that high school garbage.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-...ensive-lineman

This may actually be some elementary school garbage here:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/01/seah...goal-touchdown

[Crash]

They won that Super Bowl despite Arians Bubble Screens...errrr...I mean "offense." Two plays. Bubble screen to your slowest WR or chuck it down the field to your fastest guy and hope he doesn't have to jump,for it.

Please. Haley uses the bubble screen a helluva lot more than Arians did. Most of Arians' bubble screens were to appease Hines Ward's ego and keep his consecutive games with a catch streak alive. He admitted the streak meant a lot to Ward and went out of his way to accommodate him.

But I forgot, it's Ben "getting the ball out quicker" when a Pittsburgh native runs the offense using the same play.

- - - Updated - - -

[Crash]

Funny you say that. The last two Super Bowl Champions have done plenty of that high school garbage.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-...ensive-lineman

A scoring play that should never have counted. The play was illegal, the officials missed it.

This may actually be some elementary school garbage here:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/01/seah...goal-touchdown

That's a fake field goal. Certainly you aren't comparing that to a 330 pound tackle entering the game on his own 20 yard line to run a pass pattern on 2nd and 10, right? I wish Ben would have thrown Adams that football. Because by not doing so Haley's idiocy on that play has been ignored.

[86WARD]

LMAO.

[Crash]

Todd Haley's genius:

[BigNastyDefense]

It doesn't freaking matter who the OC or the DC is.

Half the fans hated Arians and wanted him fired, even after we won SB 43 and after we lost SB 45.

Most of the fans have been calling for LeBeau's head since the Steelers lost SB 45. And now they actually let him go, many of those same fans act outraged that the Steelers were so disloyal to a defensive legend.

Half the fans want Haley gone, but if they were to fire him and the new OC were to not put up 100 points a game they'd be saying why the hell did they fire Haley!

Steelers fans, honestly, are a bunch of spoiled brats that expect the team to win the Super Bowl every single year and when it doesn't happen they call for everyone to be fired and cut from the team.

Crash, we get it. You have a burning fire of hate in your stomach for Todd Haley. But guess what, he's not the worst offensive coordinator in the league! And please tell me who you'd replace him with. You spew all this Haley hate, but fail to name anyone the Steelers could actually hire that would be a better choice.

For the time being, the Steelers are stuck with Haley at OC rather the fans like it or not. There's a reason we are fans and not coaches/front office personnel.

[Crash]

And please tell me who you'd replace him with. You spew all this Haley hate, but fail to name anyone the Steelers could actually hire that would be a better choice.

Steelers history has shown, that when they replace an OC with an in house promotion? That usually means success. And in the Ben era specifically? That means you win a Super Bowl.

Tomlin knew it, that's why his first choice was Kirby Wilson, his RB coach. But when he was unable to be the OC because of that horrific fire? He should have been allowed to promote QB coach Randy Fichtner.

Steelers history has also shown, when you hire outsiders to run your offense? You don't win anything.

I have the last 25 years of facts to back me up.

Not sure exactly what you guys have to dispute them.

[silver & black]

How about an even up trade. Bill Musgrave for Todd Haley?

[Mojouw]

Steelers history has shown, that when they replace an OC with an in house promotion? That usually means success. And in the Ben era specifically? That means you win a Super Bowl.

Tomlin knew it, that's why his first choice was Kirby Wilson, his RB coach. But when he was unable to be the OC because of that horrific fire? He should have been allowed to promote QB coach Randy Fichtner.

Steelers history has also shown, when you hire outsiders to run your offense? You don't win anything.

I have the last 25 years of facts to back me up.

Not sure exactly what you guys have to dispute them. [/COLOR]

Well, most of us have facts, reason, and common sense.

A brief review of Steelers offensive coordinators since 1992:

The Bad:
1992 - Joe Walton (outside)
1998 - Ray Sherman (outside)

The Mediocre:
1999-2000 - Kevin Gilbride (outside)

The Good:
1993-1995 - Ron Erhardt (outside)
1996-1997 - Chan Gailey (internal)
2001-2003 - Mike Mularkey (internal)
2004-2006 - Whisenhunt (internal)

The Debate:
2007-2011 - Bruce Arians (outside)
2012-? - Todd Haley (outside)

In 2007, Arians promoted from WR coach. This seems internal, but important to note that Arians was the OC in Cleveland prior to being WR coach with Steelers after fleeing another one of the Browns annual staff purges. This is actually the FIRST significant new offensive coordinator. He brings a totally different system. All previous Steelers offensive coordinators that were not terrible or named Kevin Gilbride, reviewed here are off of the Erhardt-Perkins schematic tree. So it was a run heavy play action kind of offense. Arians is more of a deep passing kinda guy. Comes with an "air Coryell" style scheme. Simple terms, run enough to keep the defense honest, and then just go deep, baby!

This works fairly well, but Arians teams always struggle to score points (rankings back this up). Eventually Arians is canned for the publicly stated reasons that he got the franchise QB hit too much and the team couldn't run the ball effectively when needed. Conspiracy theories abound as to the real reasons.

Then Haley is hired. He is outside the organization, but actually represents a return to the schematic roots. He has trained under folks schooled in the Erhardt-Perkins tree. Whisenhunt, Charlie Weiss, Bill Parcels, etc. So Haley is actually a modern day version of hiring Ron Erhardt. Who might have been the best and most influential offensive coordinator in modern Steelers history. Under Erhardt, the Steelers were a good to very good offense and more importantly he trained the next set of coordinators (Whisenhunt, Gailey, Mularkey, etc).

So, to make a very long and ridiculously overwrought post very short - the Steelers offensive coordinators since 1992 have been the most successful when they run some version of Erhardt's offense. Your boy, Arians, does not run that kind of offense. Haley does. your inside/outside distinction is just a random fact that is hiding the real common thread between offensive coordinators - the style of offense they ran.

Like everything in life, you have to be careful how you define your terms and do your research. You have done neither.

[Crash]

The Debate:
2007-2011 - Bruce Arians (outside)

No no, he's INTERNAL. Promotion.

Oh btw, BA took a 4 year old club to the playoffs as OC.

Todd Haley's biggest claim to fame ever, was calling Ken Whisenhunt's system for 1 year.

Arians is more of a deep passing kinda guy.

Um, Ben Roethlisberger led the NFL in YPA in 2005. Ken Whisenhunt was his OC. Ben was throwing deep early in games for three years before Arians was promoted.

Again, facts, not fiction.

Comes with an "air Coryell" style scheme. Simple terms, run enough to keep the defense honest, and then just go deep, baby!

Yeah, he ran "just enough" to have the NFL's leading rusher, and was ranked #31 in pass attempts, in 2007.

What's really sad is you believe the BS you spew.

Eventually Arians is canned for the publicly stated reasons that he got the franchise QB hit too much and the team couldn't run the ball effectively when needed.

Which was an out and out joke, when one actually watches their games.

Btw, Jim Wexell has reported THIS WEEK, that LeBeau was forced out.

Again, for those who missed it, read the quote below, notice the date:



Which is exactly what happened. A Yinzer showed up, and only then did LeBeau get blamed for shit that has long been a problem since he returned.

Btw, in 1995? Ron Erhardt was "phased out" as OC, they used more of Chan Gailey's 3-4 wide sets, and 1995 was the ONLY Bill Cowher team, in his first TEN SEASONS, that had a top 10 passing team, and a non top 10 rushing team. And what did that team do? They won their conference.

Btw, Kevin Gilbride is also part of your ridiculous "Erhardt-Perkins schematic tree". You just don't have a friggin' clue why that is.

[Hawkman]

No no, he's INTERNAL. Promotion.

Oh btw, BA took a 4 year old club to the playoffs as OC.

Todd Haley's biggest claim to fame ever, was calling Ken Whisenhunt's system for 1 year.



Um, Ben Roethlisberger led the NFL in YPA in 2005. Ken Whisenhunt was his OC. Ben was throwing deep early in games for three years before Arians was promoted.

Again, facts, not fiction.



Yeah, he ran "just enough" to have the NFL's leading rusher, and was ranked #31 in pass attempts, in 2007.

What's really sad is you believe the BS you spew.



Which was an out and out joke, when one actually watches their games.

Btw, Jim Wexell has reported THIS WEEK, that LeBeau was forced out.

Again, for those who missed it, read the quote below, notice the date:



Which is exactly what happened. A Yinzer showed up, and only then did LeBeau get blamed for shit that has long been a problem since he returned.

Btw, in 1995? Ron Erhardt was "phased out" as OC, they used more of Chan Gailey's 3-4 wide sets, and 1995 was the ONLY Bill Cowher team, in his first TEN SEASONS, that had a top 10 passing team, and a non top 10 rushing team. And what did that team do? They won their conference.

Btw, Kevin Gilbride is also part of your ridiculous "Erhardt-Perkins schematic tree". You just don't have a friggin' clue why that is.

Why don't you go back to that board and put it in their faces........or did you get thrown off of it?

[Crash]

I just think some fans of this team are hilarious.

They would rather not win anything as long as they play 1975 football.

Arians gets blamed for actually using the HOF QB and WR talent he had.

It's hilarious and embarrassing at the same time.

[Mojouw]

Reread my post. Arians was an internal promotion, but learned his craft outside the Steelers. He was the OC in Cleveland and coached several other places prior to landing in Pittsburgh as a refugee from the Browns.

As to Gilbride, he cut his teeth learning versions of the run and shoot and even called a version of that during his time with the Oilers and retained aspects of the philosophy through his entire career. However, when he worked in Jacksonville he was under Coughlin who was an assistant with Erhardt back in the Parcells Giants days. He learned that system from Coughlin. Long story short, that was what got him the job. Cowher wanted to go back to something he knew worked and something that some of players were familiar with after they fired Sherman.

After the 1995 loss in the SB, it is widely acknowledged that Erhardt resigned due to clashing with Cowher over the direction of the offense. Gailey was promoted with the idea of using more of the team's receiving talent. Problem was Neil Odonnell followed Erhardt out the door and the plan kinda died in its infancy. Although Gailey ran some fairly innovative stuff and his use of 3, 4, and 5 WR sets was new and aggressive, it did not lead to a ton of success in the passing game - because his QBs stunk. As a result, Gailey leaned heavily on the running game. 1996 was Gailey's first season and the team went 10-6, lost in the divisional round of the play-offs. There was a drop-off in every offensive category from 1995. During Gailey's two year tenure (1996 and 1997) the Steelers ranked 2nd and 1st respectively in both rush attempts and yards. They ranked 30th and 26th in pass attempts. What was your point again? Because whatever it was it wasn't built on a foundation of actual facts.

In 2007, Arians did post those #'s. He also posted a relatively even split in 2011 (#19 in passing and rushing attempts). In 2010 he leaned heavily on the run because of Roethlisberger's injuries (27th passing attempts and 8th rushing attempts). In 2009, Arians was at 18th in passing attempts and 18 in rushing attempts. In 2008, Arians was 9th in rush attempts called and 20th in pass attempts called. I never claimed that he didn't attempt to run the ball. I claimed that the preference for his offensive style is to throw deep and not lean on the run. Look at what he did in Cleveland, Indianapolis, and now in Arizona.

I actually think that Arians is a better offensive coordinator and football coach in every way than Todd Haley is or ever will be. But Haley's offense is not why the Steelers are losing. Hell, Arians coached an offense that won a SB (2008) with similar #'s that Haley's offenses put up in 2011 and 2012.

Point is, it is on the defensive side of the ball that this team's primary problems can be found.

[Crash]

After the 1995 loss in the SB, it is widely acknowledged that Erhardt resigned due to clashing with Cowher over the direction of the offense.

Wrong again. He was pushed out by Cowher, who didn't want to lose Gailey in the long term, just so Erhardt could coach one more year.

In 2010 he leaned heavily on the run because of Roethlisberger's injuries (27th passing attempts and 8th rushing attempts)

I didn't know a BS four game suspension was an injury. I'll be damned.

Point is, it is on the defensive side of the ball that this team's primary problems can be found.

The point actually is, is that the defense ALWAYS had these problems.

They only became an issue, once a Pittsburgh guy became OC.

Just like I said it would.

[Mojouw]

Whatever.

You're right that I screwed up on the suspension/injury thing.

The rest of it, do you have anything to actually say or are you just banging some drum that we are all foolish fans that want to hang on to a 3 yard and a cloud of dust type of offense of a bygone era and we called for Lebeau's head because Haley was a hometown boy made good?

Because if you actually read any of the posts on this board on the subject, you would see that it is actually the opposite.

But I doubt you have any interest in that.

[Crash]

The rest of it, do you have anything to actually say or are you just banging some drum that we are all foolish fans that want to hang on to a 3 yard and a cloud of dust type of offense of a bygone era and we called for Lebeau's head because Haley was a hometown boy made good?

Some fans want 1975 football, and unfortunately, so does Art Rooney II.

Which is why we are, what we are now: A potential dynasty in the making that was transformed into an irrelevant, afterthought, run of the mill franchise.

[86WARD]

Some fans want 1975 football, and unfortunately, so does Art Rooney II.

Which is why we are, what we are now: A potential dynasty in the making that was transformed into an irrelevant, afterthought, run of the mill franchise. [/COLOR]

Not really. You can thank Colbert and the 2008/2009 draft classes for that.