Heroes & Goats vs Falcons

[GoSlash27]

All,
I was with you folks when I saw the play; no way that was helmet to helmet...

But after reading Craic's initial post, I have to side with him.
He's right, during a sack, you cannot drive the QB to the ground like that. It's gonna draw a flag every time.

I'm not going to say that it's a penalty according to the rules (I don't know) and I'm definitely not saying that it *should* be a penalty (it shouldn't)... but if you hit a QB that hard in today's league (regardless of what the rules say) you're going to draw laundry. And once the flag is thrown, you can't challenge it.

Better to not drive the QB to the ground like that. It may or may not be technically illegal, but as a practical matter it might as well be.

Best,
-Slashy

[zulater]

Finally got a chance to see the game in it's entirety on NFL rewind. So has anyone mentioned Cam Heyward here yet? He had a huge game. I also think the offensive line did a better job than first thought. Falcons were just bringing more than they could block. They might have to reconsider using the two tight end formation so much, because I think that invites invites stacking the box. Wheaton also had an underrated game. Had to reach behind himself to make the catch on a crossing route to convert a key 3rd down. Not as easy task when you know some safety or linebacker is probably lining you up at the time. Solid throughout. I think the next time we see a team stack the box so much on first and second down we've got to get our 3 wr set out there more often. Wheaton and Bryant are finally getting up to speed, so I think we can manage it better than we were earlier in the season.

[Mojouw]

Finally got a chance to see the game in it's entirety on NFL rewind. So has anyone mentioned Cam Heyward here yet? He had a huge game. I also think the offensive line did a better job than first thought. Falcons were just bringing more than they could block. They might have to reconsider using the two tight end formation so much, because I think that invites invites stacking the box. Wheaton also had an underrated game. Had to reach behind himself to make the catch on a crossing route to convert a key 3rd down. Not as easy task when you know some safety or linebacker is probably lining you up at the time. Solid throughout. I think the next time we see a team stack the box so much on first and second down we've got to get our 3 wr set out there more often. Wheaton and Bryant are finally getting up to speed, so I think we can manage it better than we were earlier in the season.

Good points. Assuming that Wheaton and Bryant now know most of the playbook, that set with AB looks terrifying for defenses to try and match-up with. I read somewhere that Bryant did not know enough of the offense to play in no=huddle situations. I hope they can get him up to speed there. Can you image Ben, Bell, Brown, Bryant, and Wheaton running a no-huddle? Particularly if they can "catch" a defense with the wrong personnel package on the field?

[zulater]

All,
I was with you folks when I saw the play; no way that was helmet to helmet...

But after reading Craic's initial post, I have to side with him.
He's right, during a sack, you cannot drive the QB to the ground like that. It's gonna draw a flag every time.

I'm not going to say that it's a penalty according to the rules (I don't know) and I'm definitely not saying that it *should* be a penalty (it shouldn't)... but if you hit a QB that hard in today's league (regardless of what the rules say) you're going to draw laundry. And once the flag is thrown, you can't challenge it.

Better to not drive the QB to the ground like that. It may or may not be technically illegal, but as a practical matter it might as well be.

Best,
-Slashy

One of the plays from this week’s game that has gotten the most attention is the clean hit linebacker Jason Worilds put on Falcons quarterback Matt Ryan that was flagged for roughing the passer.
Roethlisberger weighed in on the hit saying it was clean, but that he doesn’t mind the league protecting its quarterbacks.
“Obviously, we didn’t like it because it was a penalty against our guys,” Roethlisberger said. “When I talked to Clete [Blakeman] the referee, he said it happened so fast he didn’t feel like he led with the crown of his helmet, he just felt like he hit him a little bit too high. You can’t be mad at a guy that made a judgment call like that in a split-second situation. Everyone’s human, there’s going to be mistakes.”
Roethlisberger talked more about the current state of football where hits like that are often flagged and fans think the game is being softened.
“It’s a violent, violent sport,” Roethlisberger said. “You get old men like me out there playing with these young pups that are flying around and hitting you. We don’t mind sometimes that they protect us quarterbacks. The NFL’s got to protect its investments. That’s the game of football now, it changes and transitions like anything else, so we play it the way that it’s supposed to be played.”




http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2014/...s-investments/

Unless Ben's lying Craig's theory had nothing to do with the call.

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At this point, he should stop and fall down to the side.

And obviously Clete was wrong.

[86WARD]

When he lands on him with his full weight, rather than sliding off to the side, or putting his hand out to stop all his weight coming down, it became exactly that.

For everyone complaining . . . them's the rules. Do they suck? Sure. But you can't go out and do exactly what the rule says you can't do, and then complain that you got called for it.

It's like grabbing for a cop's gun, getting shot, and then blaming the cop.

(too soon?)

Lol. Seriously? He's supposed to "slide off" at the speed they are going? Come on. Sure he lands on top of him ... NOT with all of his weight and with no drive into the ground ... But that's not a tackle that should be a penalty.

[Craic]

Lol. Seriously? He's supposed to "slide off" at the speed they are going? Come on. Sure he lands on top of him ... NOT with all of his weight and with no drive into the ground ... But that's not a tackle that should be a penalty.

Yep, As silly as it seems, them's the rules. In short, the ref has to see you making an attempt to get your weight off the QB.

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Lol. Seriously? He's supposed to "slide off" at the speed they are going? Come on. Sure he lands on top of him ... NOT with all of his weight and with no drive into the ground ... But that's not a tackle that should be a penalty.

Yep, As silly as it seems, them's the rules. In short, the ref has to see you making an attempt to get your weight off the QB.

[slippy]

my biggest problem with that play is that Ryan came right back into the game. his head snapped and then bounced off the turf! he was clearly dazed. where is the concussion protocall? shouldnt that at least take 5-10 minutes?

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my biggest problem with that play is that Ryan came right back into the game. his head snapped and then bounced off the turf! he was clearly dazed. where is the concussion protocall? shouldnt that at least take 5-10 minutes?

[zulater]

Yep, As silly as it seems, them's the rules. In short, the ref has to see you making an attempt to get your weight off the QB.

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Yep, As silly as it seems, them's the rules. In short, the ref has to see you making an attempt to get your weight off the QB.

By Ben's account that aspect if the play had no bearing on the call. When you combine what Ben is saying the ref said with my own visual account of the play I think it came down to the ref (over) reacting to the violence of the hit and reaching a false conclusion that the hit was too high.

The ref had it wrong, as do you, just for different reasons. .

[NCSteeler]

It's wonderful that Cam is reaching Aaron smith status of having an excellent game and getting standard 3-4 lineman recognition. LOL I thought ths was the first I've seen Wheaton really be solid. Made some nice plays.
Typically driving weight on the QB involves leaving the feet and driving hard, Worlids didnt do either, and I trust Ben's word on what the ref said he saw and called. And to some degree I agree with him that it is just part of the new game and its not terrible, BUT it does give some impression of favoritisim to smaller pocket passers over Ben's style.

[zulater]

It's wonderful that Cam is reaching Aaron smith status of having an excellent game and getting standard 3-4 lineman recognition. LOL I thought ths was the first I've seen Wheaton really be solid. Made some nice plays.
Typically driving weight on the QB involves leaving the feet and driving hard, Worlids didnt do either, and I trust Ben's word on what the ref said he saw and called. And to some degree I agree with him that it is just part of the new game and its not terrible, BUT it does give some impression of favoritisim to smaller pocket passers over Ben's style.

Good post

The picture verifies he didn't leave his feet.

[Craic]

By Ben's account that aspect if the play had no bearing on the call. When you combine what Ben is saying the ref said with my own visual account of the play I think it came down to the ref (over) reacting to the violence of the hit and reaching a false conclusion that the hit was too high.

The ref had it wrong, as do you, just for different reasons. .

No . . . the ref got it right, for the wrong reasons.

If Ben's story is correct, then I admit the ref was completely wrong based on why he called it. Of course, the rulebook also says that if there is any doubt, to call a penalty (which is another stupid part of it). Nevertheless, the whole not landing on the QB is big deal in today's NFL, and I'm pretty sure it would've been called anyway.

But, it's water under the bridge at this point. Here's hoping we can thump KC.

[zulater]

No . . . the ref got it right, for the wrong reasons.

If Ben's story is correct, then I admit the ref was completely wrong based on why he called it. Of course, the rulebook also says that if there is any doubt, to call a penalty (which is another stupid part of it). Nevertheless, the whole not landing on the QB is big deal in today's NFL, and I'm pretty sure it would've been called anyway.

But, it's water under the bridge at this point. Here's hoping we can thump KC.

Still on your island I see.

Ok lets take a vote. All who think Worlids's hit should have been a penalty say aye. All opposed. Nay.

Just for a litmus test to see how objective we are.

Was Timmons hit on a sliding Ryan a penalty? Or rather it wasn't called, but should it have been?

That's the last I've got to say on the matter.

Oh wait. One more thing.


Nay! on the first matter.

Aye on Timmons

[Craic]

Still on your island I see.

Ok lets take a vote. All who think Worlids's hit should have been a penalty say aye. All opposed. Nay.

Just for a litmus test to see how objective we are.

Was Timmons hit on a sliding Ryan a penalty? Or rather it wasn't called, but should it have been?

That's the last I've got to say on the matter.

Oh wait. One more thing.


Nay! on the first matter.

Aye on Timmons

That's pretty foolhardy. Hey! Let's take a vote, all who think the Ravens suck, say Aye!

Surprised by the results?

Come on, Zu, you're a better debate than that.


I'll tell you what, show me over the last few weeks where players have come down on QBs with all their weight and have not received flags, and I'll bow out of the discussion with a hardy, you're right. Hint - you're not going to find nearly the amount needed to make that point stand. matter of fact, I'd be surprised if you found 5 percent.

[Dwinsgames]

we simply can't make it up as we go along , feet dragging on the ground refutes driving him into the ground .... photo clearly shows it ... ( its like putting on the brakes think of being on a bicycle with no brakes you slow down and stop by dragging feet ) was that intent or circumstance ? who knows , who cares ....

[GoSlash27]

Still on your island I see.

Ok lets take a vote. All who think Worlids's hit should have been a penalty say aye. All opposed. Nay.

Just for a litmus test to see how objective we are.

Was Timmons hit on a sliding Ryan a penalty? Or rather it wasn't called, but should it have been?

That's the last I've got to say on the matter.

Oh wait. One more thing.


Nay! on the first matter.

Aye on Timmons

Appeal to popularity fallacy, and a lame one at that.
I'm not arguing whether the hit was "legal" or not, I'm arguing that it was not smart.

If you hit a QB that hard, the ref is going to err on the side of caution and throw a flag. Once it's thrown, it's not getting picked up.
If you lose a game due to an untimely 'roughing the passer' penalty, *does it matter* whether the hit was technically "legal" or not?
If you want to win football games, don't draw unnecessary flags (whether bad calls or not).

My $0.02
-Slashy

[zulater]

Appeal to popularity fallacy, and a lame one at that.
I'm not arguing whether the hit was "legal" or not, I'm arguing that it was not smart.

If you hit a QB that hard, the ref is going to err on the side of caution and throw a flag. Once it's thrown, it's not getting picked up.
If you lose a game due to an untimely 'roughing the passer' penalty, *does it matter* whether the hit was technically "legal" or not?
If you want to win football games, don't draw unnecessary flags (whether bad calls or not).

My $0.02
-Slashy

You hesitate or pull up when you have a clean run on the qb and 9 out of 10 times you miss him entirely. The "problem" was that he came in unblocked. Matt Ryan should have recognized he had a man unaccounted for. It's a rarity that you get a free run at a qb like this. Also it didn't help that Ryan is a runt. Big Ben, Cam Newton, Andrew Luck, hit any of them the same and you probably don't even take them off their feet.

I've seen no indication that the coaches hand any issue with Worlids approach to this play. I doubt very much they're going to tell him or anyone else in that room to handle things differently if the situation presents itself the same in the future.

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That's pretty foolhardy. Hey! Let's take a vote, all who think the Ravens suck, say Aye!

Surprised by the results?

Come on, Zu, you're a better debate than that.


I'll tell you what, show me over the last few weeks where players have come down on QBs with all their weight and have not received flags, and I'll bow out of the discussion with a hardy, you're right. Hint - you're not going to find nearly the amount needed to make that point stand. matter of fact, I'd be surprised if you found 5 percent.

Tell you what, show me the flag worthy hit on a qb that didn't draw a fine and I'll bow out of the discussion.

[Craic]

Tell you what, show me the flag worthy hit on a qb that didn't draw a fine and I'll bow out of the discussion.

Has nothing to do with this discussion.

[zulater]

Has nothing to do with this discussion.

Except that it does. If the hit that you describe had actually taken place Jason would have been fined by the league. The non fine falls in order with the hit the rest of the board ( as opposed to you and Slash) the Steelers, and Mike Peirara's witnessed on that play.

[Count Steeler]

Except that it does. If the hit that you describe had actually taken place Jason would have been fined by the league. The non fine falls in order with the hit the rest of the board ( as opposed to you and Slash) the Steelers, and Mike Peirara's witnessed on that play.

Not exactly a seal of approval when those idiots in the NFL office review the tape. Still amazes me that such inconsistencies exist when a group of football savvy people supposedly watch videos of all the questionable plays, and some they fine and some they don't. Even if the officials get it wrong, they are supposed to get it right.

[GoSlash27]

You hesitate or pull up when you have a clean run on the qb and 9 out of 10 times you miss him entirely. The "problem" was that he came in unblocked. Matt Ryan should have recognized he had a man unaccounted for. It's a rarity that you get a free run at a qb like this. Also it didn't help that Ryan is a runt. Big Ben, Cam Newton, Andrew Luck, hit any of them the same and you probably don't even take them off their feet.

I've seen no indication that the coaches hand any issue with Worlids approach to this play. I doubt very much they're going to tell him or anyone else in that room to handle things differently if the situation presents itself the same in the future.

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Yeah, "I've seen no indication that" "I doubt very much".
These are terms that one uses when he's speculating. What is not open to speculation is this:
he *did* draw the flag.
It *did* give them a first down.
We *did* have them stopped cold on that drive before that penalty
they *did* score a touchdown when they should've been punting as a direct result of that penalty,
and
The final score was a 1 touchdown difference.

The question isn't whether Worilds should have tried avoiding leveling Ryan, but whether he *could* have.

Tell you what, show me the flag worthy hit on a qb that didn't draw a fine and I'll bow out of the discussion.

Meaningless distinction. "Flag- worthy" is not defined by you, me, or anyone else on this forum. If we get knocked out of the playoffs as the result of a flag on a "technically legal" hit, I suppose you can draw some solace from that. I think the rest of us would rather win the game, tho'