The hitler thread

[Vincent]

We swerve into hitler a lot in the spirited political and religious discussions we have.

Conventional wisdom holds that hitler...

• Founded the nazi party
• Sought to conquer the world
• Was the world's first right wing extremist
• Killed 6 million Jews
• Was a Christian
• Believed that Germans were the Aryan race and superior to the rest of humankind
• And so forth

Regardless of what you've been taught, have read, or may be ignorant to, that man and his party have spawned some interesting discussion. Why does it matter?

The nazis are known for "genocide". But more accurately, what they did to Germany and large demographic groups was commit "democide" - the murder of any person or people by a government. They created the modern blueprint. They set the standard for despots to aspire to. A nation allowed itself to be seduces, then nearly be driven into hell by those democidal monsters.

Who was hitler? Was he a "Christian", a "Catholic", or even a Jew? Was he straight or gay, or...? Was he mad? Was he a "genius" or a political hack? Did he die by his own hand in Berlin, or did he escape?

Much of the nazi psyche is explored in this brief video...



But, seriously, what say ye about this creature we call hitler?

[zulater]

[SteelCityMom]

I've summarized some of my views on Hitler and Christianity in the GZ thread, so I'll just post the link there if anyone's interested. http://www.steelersuniverse.com/foru...nd-Zero/page90

I have much deep seeded hatred for Hitler and his followers, and for what they did. Some for personal reasons, others just because he was a bastard. Without going into too much of a rant, I think that sums it up for me pretty well.

For anyone interested though, the History Channel has done some good documentaries on Hitler. Here's a few of them.



Parts 2,3,4 and 5 on Youtube.



Parts 2,3,4 and 5 on Youtube.



Parts 2,3,4 and 5 on Youtube.





There's tons more, but I'll stop for now.

[fansince'76]

[SteelCityMom]

Old banned Disney Cartoon.

[Shea]

Wouldn't it be something if Mel Gibson was here to add to the conversation. :rolleyes2:

Went to DC a few years back - my biggest regret was not having enough time to go to the Holocaust Museum.

It made me feel like I didn't honor and pay respect to the millions of victims.

[MasterOfPuppets]

Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid offending Muslims

Schools are dropping the Holocaust from history lessons to avoid offending Muslim pupils, a Governmentbacked study has revealed.

It found some teachers are reluctant to cover the atrocity for fear of upsetting students whose beliefs include Holocaust denial.
More....

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0xMkg21c0

[Shea]

Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid offending Muslims



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0xMkg21c0

That's sad and disgusting.

If they studied the subject they then couldn't possibly deny what happened.

[steelerdude15]

I'm not even sure a thread like this should even be opened, but I don't like anything he did and planned. Innocent men, women, and children died because of this guy. In fact, there were Nazi's who tried to kill him, but never managed to actually kill him. Yes, he was a very smart man who helped bring back Germany's economy, but he then caused disaster... the only word I can say about this man... disaster. Now, the Nazis still exist, but are very small and KKK groups around the country have picked up his "thoughts" about Jews, you would be surprised to know that KKK groups are now against the Jew with even more hatred then what it once was. Bottom line= a spin-less hypocrite.

[Mattsme]

I heard he suffered from monorchism.

To quote Forrest Gump:

"And that's all I have to say about that."

[zulater]

Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid offending Muslims



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0xMkg21c0

I think your post would have been a better fit for the ground zero thread. The above is a good example of why I fear Islamic expansion in this country. It's the normal M.O. for the religion to guilt their hosts not to be offensive, and in so doing skirt the truth completely.

[venom]

I heard he loved children , lol .

[SteelerEmpire]

Hitler was just simply another one of those Jew haters that has popped up through out history. Here is one of my favorite quotes of "Mark Twain" concerning the Jews that basically sums up what Hitler (and today's extreme Islam) is:

The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed; and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?”

- Mark Twain
(“Concerning The Jews,” Harper’s Magazine, 1899

Simply put, there have been many enemies of the Jews through out history, Hitler was simply another one. If the Russian's would have not stopped him, the "meth" he used probably would have. If not that then the A-Bomb that the US developed (opened up by Einstein-a Jew, and assembled by Oppenheimer-a Jew, that was over the Manhattan Project whose scientists and engineers were predominantly Jews) would have drove them back into the pit that he came from. Man, that would have been kool... lol...

[vasteeler]

hitler was a genius problem is he was also bat shit crazy

[Vincent]

So apparently there's more to Herr Schickelgruber's "background" than we've been led to believe...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ests-show.html
Hitler 'had Jewish and African roots', DNA tests show
Adolf Hitler is likely to have had Jewish and African roots, DNA tests have shown.
By Heidi Blake
Published: 6:25AM BST 24 Aug 2010

Adolf Hitler may have had Jewish and African roots, DNA tests have shown
Saliva samples taken from 39 relatives of the Nazi leader show he may have had biological links to the “subhuman” races that he tried to exterminate during the Holocaust.

Jean-Paul Mulders, a Belgian journalist, and Marc Vermeeren, a historian, tracked down the Fuhrer’s relatives, including an Austrian farmer who was his cousin, earlier this year.

A chromosome called Haplogroup E1b1b1 which showed up in their samples is rare in Western Europe and is most commonly found in the Berbers of Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, as well as among Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews.

"One can from this postulate that Hitler was related to people whom he despised," Mr Mulders wrote in the Belgian magazine, Knack.

Haplogroup E1b1b1, which accounts for approximately 18 to 20 per cent of Ashkenazi and 8.6 per cent to 30 per cent of Sephardic Y-chromosomes, appears to be one of the major founding lineages of the Jewish population.

Knack, which published the findings, says the DNA was tested under stringent laboratory conditions.

"This is a surprising result," said Ronny Decorte, a genetic specialist at the Catholic University of Leuven.

"The affair is fascinating if one compares it with the conception of the world of the Nazis, in which race and blood was central.

“Hitler's concern over his descent was not unjustified. He was apparently not "pure" or ‘Ayran’.”

It is not the first time that historians have suggested Hitler had Jewish ancestry. His father, Alois, is thought to have been the illegitimate offspring of a maid called Maria Schickelgruber and a 19-year-old Jewish man called Frankenberger.

[Craic]

Interesting thread.

1. Hitler was by no means "a christian." Yes, yes, there are lots of "internet quotes" to say otherwise, most of which were public propaganda to a nation nominally Christian, like the US was 20 or so years ago. However, check out his private conversations recorded by his secretary

(Hitler's Table Talk--Adolf Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953) this section was taken from http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mis...ca_hitler.html
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

• "National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
  "The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
  "Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday

• "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday

• "The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
  "Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
  "...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
  "Christianity <is> the liar....
  "We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night

• "The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

21st October, 1941, midday

• "Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
  "The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
  "Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight

• "Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
  "When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)

14th December, 1941, midday

• "Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
  "Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner

• "There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday

• "It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
  "Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)

As this website points out, neither was he an atheist. When it was all said and done, he had basically created his own religion, with him as the Godhead. The state church was subverted into it, but the confessing church held strong... hence the abbreviated work of Bonhoeffer (who, IMO, was rightly accused of plotting against Hitler, and rightly, IMO, should have plotted against him). The Catholic church lists 108 polish catholic martyrs of WWIl due to Hitler.

• Edith Stein (Carmelite nun, died at Auschwitz), 1942
• Lucian Tapiedi (1942)
• Franz Jägerstätter, 1943

Not to mention upwards of 3 million polish and eastern Christians.

2. While the Jewish population was the most devastated in sheer numbers, by percentage, that honor actually possible goes to the Romani's (gypsy's). They had anywhere from 250,000 to 1.5 million of their people killed by Hitler (the count is difficult, because of the secretiveness and shame felt by many of the roma people thereafter, since culture taboos were greatly violated). Interestingly, the the higher numbers come from more academic sources. Some estimates of the Roma people in Europe before the war go as low as 1 mllion people. That means that possible upwards of half to most all
Gypsy's were killed.

3. Hitler was not "right wing". His party, the "National Socialist" party, was fully accepting of socialism. The distinction, is that it was a different kind of socialism than the marxist view of antithesis socialism producing communism. In fact, his breaking of unions would be copied by the Soviet union (or tried, I should say) against a polish yard worker and the solidarity movement. The "right" of democracy and capitalism is thus, not Fascism or Nazism, but rather, monarchies and landed aristocracy. The left, splits into two branches, one is socialism, and one is fascism.

4. There is NO American political operative in either party that deserves the title "fascist," or "hitler". To do so dishonors the 11 Mill. or so people who were killed by a monster of a man.

5. The world is very lucky--- because that madman was actually very close in WAY TOO MANY occasions to winning the war. A little more patience... a little more trust of his military, and this would be an entirely different world.

[Vincent]

Interesting thread.

Exceptional post Preacher!!

Among the things that leap from the page is a point that I like to hammer on - the nazis were socialists.

nazi Germany is a showcase example of what happens when socialism goes unchecked. The soviet union is another. There are no end of other examples, but IMHO, the nazis are the highest distillation of socialism to stain the landscape.

Fascism manifested itself most egregiously in two socialist regimes of that time - Germany and Italy. Fascism is left, not right as "conventional wisdom" would have us believe.

[Vincent]

...Not to mention upwards of 3 million polish and eastern Christians. [/INDENT]2. While the Jewish population was the most devastated in sheer numbers, by percentage, that honor actually possible goes to the Romani's (gypsy's). They had anywhere from 250,000 to 1.5 million of their people killed by Hitler (the count is difficult, because of the secretiveness and shame felt by many of the roma people thereafter, since culture taboos were greatly violated). Interestingly, the the higher numbers come from more academic sources. Some estimates of the Roma people in Europe before the war go as low as 1 mllion people. That means that possible upwards of half to most all Gypsy's were killed.

A very detailed statistical site for this general subject is R. J. Rummel's "Democide" site at the University of Hawaii.

My studies in this area over the years have consistently indicated that upwards of 20 million non-combat fatalities can be attributed to the nazis - meaning that 20 million died at their hands because they were on the wrong team.

"Conventional wisdom" holds that the holocaust was responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews. Period. No dispute. But nobody ever talks about the "other" 14 million, most of which were Christians.

Rummel summarizes it thus...

"By genocide, the murder of hostages, reprisal raids, forced labor, "euthanasia," starvation, exposure, medical experiments, and terror bombing, and in the concentration and death camps, the Nazis murdered from 15,003,000 to 31,595,000 people, most likely 20,946,000 men, women, handicapped, aged, sick, prisoners of war, forced laborers, camp inmates, critics, homosexuals, Jews, Slavs, Serbs, Germans, Czechs, Italians, Poles, French, Ukrainians, and many others. Among them 1,000,000 were children under eighteen years of age.1 And none of these monstrous figures even include civilian and military combat or war-deaths...

...and the most probable figure; table 1.1 subdivides the democide in various ways, sorts them, and compares this democide to the war-dead for Germany and other European nations. The table first lists the various major genocides carried out by the Nazis and the numbers likely murdered: 16,315,000 victims overall. Then is shown the 11,283,000 people the Nazis killed through institutional practices, such as forced "euthanasia," forced labor, and the processing of prisoners of war; or in Nazi institutions, particularly prisoner of war and concentration or death camps. Much of this institutionalized killing was pursuant to one Nazi democide program or another, and the totals therefore overlap with those for genocide. Finally, the table lists those occupied nations that suffered democide. Clearly the Soviet Union and then Poland endured the most."

[urgle burgle]

vinnie, as someone who has always been attracted to everything WW2, you got any other citations or links on the above? ive researched this quite a bit, and this is the first time ive heard this concept. would love to hear more. thanks.

[urgle burgle]

Wouldn't it be something if Mel Gibson was here to add to the conversation. :rolleyes2:

Went to DC a few years back - my biggest regret was not having enough time to go to the Holocaust Museum.

It made me feel like I didn't honor and pay respect to the millions of victims.

if you ever get the chance to go back, make sure you go. as someone who went, it will affect you forever. as i am not one to get emotional, i almost lost it a few times. its an untimed tour, and you have to get tickets to go. the usual, they say, is about 3 hrs. to see everything. After 2 hrs. i had had enough. i got to the point where i physically was getting sick, and couldnt breath. But, to me, it is important to go.

[Craic]

Exceptional post Preacher!!

Among the things that leap from the page is a point that I like to hammer on - the nazis were socialists.

nazi Germany is a showcase example of what happens when socialism goes unchecked. The soviet union is another. There are no end of other examples, but IMHO, the nazis are the highest distillation of socialism to stain the landscape.

Fascism manifested itself most egregiously in two socialist regimes of that time - Germany and Italy. Fascism is left, not right as "conventional wisdom" would have us believe.

Thank you. I do however, think we should highlight the difference between the socialism of Fascist economies, and that of Nazism, and the difference between Fascism and true socialism. While they are both on the left in world politic, we need to be careful (we being American conservatives) in flinging around the word "left" when it comes to these policies, and thereby making a connection with the "left" of the American Political scene. In truth, Nazism was built upon the premise of hatred, scapegoating one particular group for the economic disaster the country found itself in. It was a historically localized philosophy that is and was unique to 1930-40's Germany. Fascism is the foundation which Nazism was built upon. It looks just like socialism in many ways (hence, National Socialism), but does vary in two very specific areas... 1. private ownership and 2. autocratic vs. oligarchical control. Dialectical socialism as put forward by Marx moves towards a loss of private ownership, but also is oligarchical in govt. control. While the theory is a fallen away of govt. and the rise of communes and a true governmentless world, the reality is an oligarchical resembling the Soviet Politiburo. Fascism is usually a single leader. Furthermore, fascism is more economic, and for those not targeted, the life of the individual is not as regimented. In short, fascism may be seen as the Libertarian socialism whereas dialectical (marxian) socialism concerns the economics at the level of EVERY individual and thus, an exertion of control at every level of life for all.

Fascism is not always bad, provided the Nazist concepts of race are not included. Our constitution dictates that the United States becomes a fascist economy during times of declared war. The president has the right to demand from companies exactly what they will and will not produce. The dirty secret, is that the US become the most successful fascist nation during WWII. The difference however, is that it reverted back (most of the way, taxes imposed for the war were not revoked) to a capitalism economy.

vinnie, as someone who has always been attracted to everything WW2, you got any other citations or links on the above? ive researched this quite a bit, and this is the first time ive heard this concept. would love to hear more. thanks.

While I do agree with him, especially on the Eastern Front where MILLIONS of people died, I do not in anyway consider that similar to the actual holocaust. One was an expediency of war from a particularly brutal man. The other was an out and out policy of extermination which had nothing to do with advancing and retreating armies.

Most of his numbers however, I don't doubt.

[Vincent]

vinnie, as someone who has always been attracted to everything WW2, you got any other citations or links on the above? ive researched this quite a bit, and this is the first time ive heard this concept. would love to hear more. thanks.

The Mother Lode is here.

"The" book is here.

[urgle burgle]

The Mother Lode is here.

"The" book is here.

muchos gracias, sir.

[Vincent]

Most of his numbers however, I don't doubt.

Dachau was fairly "representative" of "camp demographics" across "the network".



Dachau was and is very orderly. There were rows and rows of barracks. Only one remains as a museum piece. The footprints of all the others remain to give you the immediate layout. Down the center of the barracks is a boulevard that draws they eye to what are certainly “memorials”.



As you approach the most prominent, and centered memorial, you are surprised to see it houses a huge wooden cross.



This is the memorial to the “evangelicals” who suffered the most deaths in Dachau. To the right and left are more memorials to various Christian denominations comprising the vast majority of Dachau “statistics”. Off to the right at the end of “memorial row” is the memorial to the Jews. Its cut into the ground like the Viet Nam memorial in DC. Almost an afterthought. The exhibits in the SS barracks confirm that the vast majority of deaths at Dachau were "mainstream" Christians that were there because they were "mainstream" Christians. This is not to minimize the number of Jews, but to point out that there’s a great deal more to the “holocaust’ than Jews. In fact, as Rummel's studies and Dachau's careful records confirm, depending on who’s numbers you use, the tally was around 20 million, the balance of 14 million were mostly Christians.

I saw all this with my own eyes. I took these pics. One exhibit that left my knees even weaker than the ovens, gas chambers, and torture rooms, and the rest of me very humble was...



...the regalia of "the secret Church". Yes, you read that right. A Church conducted services in secret throughout the reign of Dachau. What you see in that little pic is the robes and accouterments to a worship service, all fashioned out of what little bits of "material" and wood that could be drawn together among starving, sick, and broken prisoners.

Interestingly, there were no indications of muslim prisoners. At the time I was there, that wouldn't have occurred to me. The last 10 years cause me to reflect.

You can explain Dachau and the Third Reich in a lot of ways. I have lived there. I know these people. While their culture goes back thousands of years, they put their britches on the same way we do. The nazi era is what happens when people allow socialism to take hold and become totalitarian.

[Killer]

Don't give me that "good Nazi" crap...the people knew what was happening...greedy pigs


the Kraut generals should of assassinated Hitler as soon as he attacked Russia, but they fucked it up.....of course today that would mean the French and Italians speak German - no Aryan skin off my nose

[Craic]

Don't give me that "good Nazi" crap...the people knew what was happening...greedy pigs


the Kraut generals should of assassinated Hitler as soon as he attacked Russia, but they fucked it up.....of course today that would mean the French and Italians speak German - no Aryan skin off my nose

I don't think any one ever said "good nazi". There were, however, "Good Germans." Again, I would have to say that Bonhoeffer tops that list. However, quite a few in the German Navy would also be on the list. After all, when the SS came to remove the Jews from the ships, the Navy was known to turn their guns on the SS. There are also stories circulating about military bases hording Jews to protect them.

No, you're quite right. There isn't a good "Nazi". But German? Yeah, there were a few of em.

[Steeldude]

Liberals of today are quite similar to Hitler and his Nazis.

[Penglose]

Now you can call them the Dumbocrat's children. They control the education system, and wasn't it Billary who said it takes a village to raise a child?

[Rocky Mtn.]

Now you can call them the Dumbocrat's children. They control the education system, and wasn't it Killary who said it takes a village to raise a child?

FTFY.

[Penglose]

Either one fits.