If the Steelers miss the playoffs....?

[st33lersguy]

What difference does it make? You're not going to the playoffs with him again. Period. You really want to invest 100 million into a qb when the team has no playoff prospects?

He's our best player. Who do we replace him with?

[zulater]

How about getting rid of the head coach and coordinators first?

In our dreams. But you know that's not the Steelers way. We're stuck with Tomlin until he retires.

[MrPgh]

In our dreams. But you know that's not the Steelers way. We're stuck with Tomlin until he retires.

Then the Steelers replace Jacksonville as the NFL's laughing stock.

[steelerdude15]

The Steelers won't trade Ben.

[zulater]

The Steelers won't trade Ben.

What f Ben demands it?

[zulater]

Yeah Hoyer is worse than Gradkowski.

[tube517]

Why did we never keep Hoyer as a backup?

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[fansince'76]

Yeah Hoyer is worse than Gradkowski.

Derek Anderson made a Pro Bowl as a Brown too. Of course, the Steelers fielding the worst defense they've had in years also has something to do with it.

[zulater]

And Grakowski sucks

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Why did we never keep Hoyer as a backup?

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Because our coaches don't recognize talent when it's right in front of their faces. I don't care what anyone says, Landry Jones wasn't brought in to replace Ben, he was brouhgt in to replace Leftwich and Batch. But we already had a viable replacement on the roster. But we cut him. Assholes.

[Mojouw]

Hoyer is not really that impressive. Almost anyone could carve up the Steelers pass defense at this point. Watch when Hoyer plays a competent NFL defense. The Manziel calls will be soon to follow.

Letting Hoer go is the least troubling of the personnel problems on the current roster.
1. NO DBs that can make plays on the outside
2. Lack of a true FS
3. No pass rush from the LB position
4. OT' s are still hot garbage
5. OUtside of AB, WR corps is too young and inexperienced.
6. ANother TE would be more than useful.

I could go on, and around 112 we might get to Hoyer.

[zulater]

Hoyer is not really that impressive. Almost anyone could carve up the Steelers pass defense at this point. Watch when Hoyer plays a competent NFL defense. The Manziel calls will be soon to follow.

Letting Hoer go is the least troubling of the personnel problems on the current roster.
1. NO DBs that can make plays on the outside
2. Lack of a true FS
3. No pass rush from the LB position
4. OT' s are still hot garbage
5. OUtside of AB, WR corps is too young and inexperienced.
6. ANother TE would be more than useful.

I could go on, and around 112 we might get to Hoyer.

The point is we had Batch and Leftwich's replacement on the roster at the end of the 2012 season if we keep Hoyer. But nope, this shitty copaching staff doesn't recognize they have a competent back up for Ben. A guy that culd hold a season together if the starter goes down. But nope, moron coaching staff decides he's not good enough and subsequently we waste a 4th round pick on a positiopn of no need when we had glaring needs all over.

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You draft developmental qb's when you don't have glaring needs elsewhere or when your qb is at the end of his rope. .Neither was the case here, so the choice on Landry was flat out stupid, as was cutting Hoyer.

[Steelerette]

I understand that the team has worse problems than the Hoyer thing, but I don't understand how some people can't admit that we could have just kept Hoyer as our backup.

On the same token it's hindsight to say the Landry Jones pick was bad. Even if Hoyer's your backup, that's what he is - your backup. You want to start developing a real heir to Ben, and Landry was a good draft value when we got him. Now it's true that he hasn't worked out, but still.

[tube517]

Hoyer is not really that impressive. Almost anyone could carve up the Steelers pass defense at this point. Watch when Hoyer plays a competent NFL defense. The Manziel calls will be soon to follow.

Letting Hoer go is the least troubling of the personnel problems on the current roster.
1. NO DBs that can make plays on the outside
2. Lack of a true FS
3. No pass rush from the LB position
4. OT' s are still hot garbage
5. OUtside of AB, WR corps is too young and inexperienced.
6. ANother TE would be more than useful.

I could go on, and around 112 we might get to Hoyer.

I'm not saying Hoyer is Montana. I mean our backups in 2012 were both on social security. I'm just wondering why he was not kept knowing they had the old guys at backup QB. He would be a competent Backup

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[steelerdude15]

What f Ben demands it?

Then I'll eat my words, but I highly doubt he'll ask to be traded.

[zulater]

I understand that the team has worse problems than the Hoyer thing, but I don't understand how some people can't admit that we could have just kept Hoyer as our backup.

On the same token it's hindsight to say the Landry Jones pick was bad. Even if Hoyer's your backup, that's what he is - your backup. You want to start developing a real heir to Ben, and Landry was a good draft value when we got him. Now it's true that he hasn't worked out, but still.

No. Tell me the last developmental qb drafted in the 4th round who became a high end starter. 4th round picks have value. But not when you use them for a developmental qb. They should have used the pick on a position of need. Not a qb who you hope doesn't see a down of serious play for 5years.

[zulater]

The 2008 Steeler defense, one of the best defenses in the past 20 years had 2 starters drafted in the 4th round. Aaron Smith and Ike Taylor. Plus longtime Steelers starter Larry Foote was a 4th round pick.

[zulater]

Think we can change the title of this thread from if to when.

[Mojouw]

No. Tell me the last developmental qb drafted in the 4th round who became a high end starter. 4th round picks have value. But not when you use them for a developmental qb. They should have used the pick on a position of need. Not a qb who you hope doesn't see a down of serious play for 5years.

Brady, Wilson, Hoyer (according to this board) were outside the 4th round. Orton went in the fourth round of the draft. Schuab and Foles went at the bottom of the third. Cousins went in the fourth.

All of those guys were originally taken as "developmental" QBs. Some were forced, or forced their way into earlier playing time. Others have fizzled as starters but say decent careers as back-ups. This is just off the top of my head.

The logic on Jones is what good organizations attempt to do. Buy low on talent at positions were that talent is scarce. Look at what the Pats have done with Matt Cassel and Ryan Mallet. Rinse. Repeat. Just because Jones didn't work out, doesn't mean the idea was not sound.

I posed the question in another thread and I will pose it again. Google the draft picks between Landry Jones and Terry Hawthorne. Take an honest look and tell me which of those players means this team still isn't a mess and lacking talent? There were not a ton of good football players taken in that span of picks.

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I'm not saying Hoyer is Montana. I mean our backups in 2012 were both on social security. I'm just wondering why he was not kept knowing they had the old guys at backup QB. He would be a competent Backup

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He was not kept because due to the litany of injuries at other positions, it was judged his roster spot was needed elsewhere.

[SteelerFanInStl]

I was busy working for most of the day so I didn't even get to follow the game. I don't even know what to say about this garbage other than PATHETIC!!!

The whole coaching staff and Colbert need to go.

[zulater]

Wilson was a 3rd round pick. Brady was drafted in the 6th round with no expectations. So outside of Brady which of those other guys took their original team to the Super Bowl? And drafting Mallet did the Patriots no good. Could have used that pick for some players to help Brady.

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Brady, Wilson, Hoyer (according to this board) were outside the 4th round. Orton went in the fourth round of the draft. Schuab and Foles went at the bottom of the third. Cousins went in the fourth.

All of those guys were originally taken as "developmental" QBs. Some were forced, or forced their way into earlier playing time. Others have fizzled as starters but say decent careers as back-ups. This is just off the top of my head.

The logic on Jones is what good organizations attempt to do. Buy low on talent at positions were that talent is scarce. Look at what the Pats have done with Matt Cassel and Ryan Mallet. Rinse. Repeat. Just because Jones didn't work out, doesn't mean the idea was not sound.

I posed the question in another thread and I will pose it again. Google the draft picks between Landry Jones and Terry Hawthorne. Take an honest look and tell me which of those players means this team still isn't a mess and lacking talent? There were not a ton of good football players taken in that span of picks.

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He was not kept because due to the litany of injuries at other positions, it was judged his roster spot was needed elsewhere.

So by your thinking we weren't going to carry a back up qb going into OTA's? We used Hoyer's spot on Gradkowski.

[Mojouw]

Wilson was a 3rd round pick. Brady was drafted in the 6th round with no expectations. So outside of Brady which of those other guys took their original team to the Super Bowl? And drafting Mallet did the Patriots no good. Could have used that pick for some players to help Brady.

Fine so QB's outside of 1st round rarely take their teams to the SB. If that is the point you want to argue, great, you win.

If you want to argue the larger, more relevant point, that taking Jones in the 4th round was a waste of resources, then actually look at what I said. There are many talented lower-end starters (I know you want to talk high-end, but that is skewing the debate to such a degree as to make it pointless), solid back-ups, developing prospects, etc that were taken from the latter 3rd of the 3rd round or later in the draft. It is not a "bad" strategy to roll the dice on QB prospects in the 2nd half of the draft. If you "hit" on one, you are set for a long time.

Jones was drafted with little expectations. So a Brady comparison is valid.

Mallet did help the Patriots. He turned a few years of sitting on the bench and looking pretty into an extra draft pick this upcoming year.

As to using the original draft pick, I refer you to the question I have asked you twice, and you refuse to answer. Who else would you have drafted that is anything but a bottom of the roster or practice squad player. I got Kenny Stills WR. That's about it.

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Wilson was a 3rd round pick. Brady was drafted in the 6th round with no expectations. So outside of Brady which of those other guys took their original team to the Super Bowl? And drafting Mallet did the Patriots no good. Could have used that pick for some players to help Brady.

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So by your thinking we weren't going to carry a back up qb going into OTA's? We used Hoyer's spot on Gradkowski.

Hoyer was released on December 8th, prior to Week 14 of the regular season. So the OTA's and Gradkowski issue is totally irrelevant.

[zulater]

Fine so QB's outside of 1st round rarely take their teams to the SB. If that is the point you want to argue, great, you win.

If you want to argue the larger, more relevant point, that taking Jones in the 4th round was a waste of resources, then actually look at what I said. There are many talented lower-end starters (I know you want to talk high-end, but that is skewing the debate to such a degree as to make it pointless), solid back-ups, developing prospects, etc that were taken from the latter 3rd of the 3rd round or later in the draft. It is not a "bad" strategy to roll the dice on QB prospects in the 2nd half of the draft. If you "hit" on one, you are set for a long time.

Jones was drafted with little expectations. So a Brady comparison is valid.

Mallet did help the Patriots. He turned a few years of sitting on the bench and looking pretty into an extra draft pick this upcoming year.

As to using the original draft pick, I refer you to the question I have asked you twice, and you refuse to answer. Who else would you have drafted that is anything but a bottom of the roster or practice squad player. I got Kenny Stills WR. That's about it.

Not a draft guy. Leave that question out there for Dwins.

And the Patriots got what, a 7th rounder for Mallet? That was worth them blowing a 3rd rounder whatever year they took him?

And honestly I don't care if there wasn't anyone great out there to draft. You pick a name at a position of need and get him right on the field playing special teams until he;'s ready to get reps at his position.

Landry was a poor choice. Many said it at the time.

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Fine so QB's outside of 1st round rarely take their teams to the SB. If that is the point you want to argue, great, you win.

If you want to argue the larger, more relevant point, that taking Jones in the 4th round was a waste of resources, then actually look at what I said. There are many talented lower-end starters (I know you want to talk high-end, but that is skewing the debate to such a degree as to make it pointless), solid back-ups, developing prospects, etc that were taken from the latter 3rd of the 3rd round or later in the draft. It is not a "bad" strategy to roll the dice on QB prospects in the 2nd half of the draft. If you "hit" on one, you are set for a long time.

Jones was drafted with little expectations. So a Brady comparison is valid.

Mallet did help the Patriots. He turned a few years of sitting on the bench and looking pretty into an extra draft pick this upcoming year.

As to using the original draft pick, I refer you to the question I have asked you twice, and you refuse to answer. Who else would you have drafted that is anything but a bottom of the roster or practice squad player. I got Kenny Stills WR. That's about it.

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Hoyer was released on December 8th, prior to Week 14 of the regular season. So the OTA's and Gradkowski issue is totally irrelevant.

So they could bring back Batch or Leftwich for a couple weeks. Yeah brilliant move Steelers.

[Mojouw]

Not a draft guy. Leave that question out there for Dwins.

And the Patriots got what, a 7th rounder for Mallet? That was worth them blowing a 3rd rounder whatever year they took him?

And honestly I don't care if there wasn't anyone great out there to draft. You pick a name at a position of need and get him right on the field playing special teams until he;'s ready to get reps at his position.

Landry was a poor choice. Many said it at the time.

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So they could bring back Batch or Leftwich for a couple weeks. Yeah brilliant move Steelers.

If you don't want to have a discussion using facts and logic, and just want to rant and rave -- then I'm going to step aside.

I'm not a draft guy either, but I do watch the rest of the NFL and I have never heard of any of the folks drafted between Jones and Hawthorne doing any more than Jones has to this point. I am likely wrong - not a rare occurrence, but at least trying to talk about stuff rather than yelling randomly.

Also, in regard to cutting Hoyer. He was cut because he was brought in as an emergency QB for two weeks. If I remember correctly, that Steelers team was not totally eliminated from playoff contention until late in the season (last week or so). A fairly logical decision was made that cutting a QB that did not know the offense and was never going to see the field barring a disaster was worth freeing up that roster spot for someone else. But, again, logic may not be your purpose here.

[zulater]

If you don't want to have a discussion using facts and logic, and just want to rant and rave -- then I'm going to step aside.

I'm not a draft guy either, but I do watch the rest of the NFL and I have never heard of any of the folks drafted between Jones and Hawthorne doing any more than Jones has to this point. I am likely wrong - not a rare occurrence, but at least trying to talk about stuff rather than yelling randomly.

Also, in regard to cutting Hoyer. He was cut because he was brought in as an emergency QB for two weeks. If I remember correctly, that Steelers team was not totally eliminated from playoff contention until late in the season (last week or so). A fairly logical decision was made that cutting a QB that did not know the offense and was never going to see the field barring a disaster was worth freeing up that roster spot for someone else. But, again, logic may not be your purpose here.

If they had any clue what Hoyer could be they would have kept him. They had no idea what they had. Ryan Clark said he saw major league arm talent with Hoyer. But it seemingly escaped our wonderful coaches that have your full confidence.

[zulater]

My purpose? Trying to cash in the chip that is what's left of Ben's career. Not wanting him to finish out his career on a 5-7 year non playoff run on proggesivleyworse teams. Not for Ben, though I am a huge fan of his, but for the Steelers, because i don't think we can start a new future until we let go of the past. And in my opinion I think Ben is the past. I don't see much of a scenario where he leads this team deep into the playoffs again. Perhaps I'm wrong? I would love to be. But regardless that's my purpose here.

Now what's yours outside of proving to everyone how above us you are?

[Mojouw]

If they had any clue what Hoyer could be they would have kept him. They had no idea what they had. Ryan Clark said he saw major league arm talent with Hoyer. But it seemingly escaped our wonderful coaches that have your full confidence.

Uggghhh. That is not what I am saying at all. There are two issues here.

1. At the point that Hoyer was cut, his roster spot was better served by a player that would make a tangible weekly contribution to the team's dwindling playoff aspirations. As for Ryan Clark, he has developed a talent to indicate he was always right about everything now that he is paid to talk about the NFL.

2. How good is Hoyer really? He carved up a shitty Steelers squad today and in week 1. Put up some #'s against a bad Titans team. I don't think we need to lament the loss of Brian Hoyer to this roster. What would Hoyer's presence change? I guess the drafting of Landry Jones. So which of the immortal dirtballs drafted between Jones and Hawthorne would fix this team's myriad flaws?

As for Hoyer's talent it "escaped" the Patriots, the Steelers, the Cardinals, and every other team but the Browns. Make of that what you will.

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My purpose? Trying to cash in the chip that is what's left of Ben's career. Not wanting him to finish out his career on a 5-7 year non playoff run on proggesivleyworse teams. Not for Ben, though I am a huge fan of his, but for the Steelers, because i don't think we can start a new future until we let go of the past. And in my opinion I think Ben is the past. I don't see much of a scenario where he leads this team deep into the playoffs again. Perhaps I'm wrong? I would love to be. But regardless that's my purpose here.

Now what's yours outside of proving to everyone how above us you are?

And, I have attempted to respond to that premise. I think it is an intriguing thought problem, I really do. However, I couldn't disagree more on the outcome. I can not envision a scenario where trading Ben helps this team in any way. Period. Any draft picks received as compensation would be expended in moving up to get Ben's replacement. The reason I have latched on to the Hoyer issue, is that I reject the idea that Hoyer is in any way a solution (long term or temporary) to any post Ben scenario.

I'm really trying to follow your logic, but I keep getting lost in the emotional outbursts and assumptions that every move made by this team in the past 5 years has been a brainless mistake of epic proportions. Many bad decisions have been made, but also many good decisions.

[zulater]

ON Hoyer. Real simple I wish that they had kept him to be Ben's back-up. Had they done so and realized that he was an able back-up then I presume, perhaps wrongly, that Landry Jones wouldn't have been drafted. Because it's my belief that Jones was drafted to replace Batch and Lefty, not so much to be Ben's replacement in waiting. Now would that 4th round pick have been used in a way that would be paying dividends today? Don't know. Just wish and think the effort should have been made to shore up an area more in need of immediate help. That's the last I have to say on Hoyer. Hope this clears things up.

[Mojouw]

ON Hoyer. Real simple I wish that they had kept him to be Ben's back-up. Had they done so and realized that he was an able back-up then I presume, perhaps wrongly, that Landry Jones wouldn't have been drafted. Because it's my belief that Jones was drafted to replace Batch and Lefty, not so much to be Ben's replacement in waiting. Now would that 4th round pick have been used in a way that would be paying dividends today? Don't know. Just wish and think the effort should have been made to shore up an area more in need of immediate help. That's the last I have to say on Hoyer. Hope this clears things up.

Got it. This team does traditionally struggle with QB succession planning and development. Tee Martin? Really?

[zulater]

Got it. This team does traditionally struggle with QB succession planning and development. Tee Martin? Really?

Thank you. As far as Ben goes. I know things can change in a hurry in this league. But I fear that we've seen our last playoff run under Ben. It's due t this belief that I think we should consider moving Ben while he still has value.

Imagine going 6-10 for this season and next, and Ben playing out his contract in 2015. Do you franchise tag him? give him 23 million for one year for a team that's in some stage of rebuilding? Or how about this, really let the bottom fall out. Go 4-12 next season and getting a top ten qb to build around.

Maybe the worse thing that could happen is that if Ben props the team up enough to go 8-8 year after year. Stuck forever in the mediocre triangle, then Ben walks away and you're already 3 hard years into LeVeon's career with no real future qb on the horizon.

I'm just saying keeping Ben might actually retard things rather than help.

[Mojouw]

Thank you. As far as Ben goes. I know things can change in a hurry in this league. But I fear that we've seen our last playoff run under Ben. It's due t this belief that I think we should consider moving Ben while he still has value.

Imagine going 6-10 for this season and next, and Ben playing out his contract in 2015. Do you franchise tag him? give him 23 million for one year for a team that's in some stage of rebuilding? Or how about this, really let the bottom fall out. Go 4-12 next season and getting a top ten qb to build around.

Maybe the worse thing that could happen is that if Ben props the team up enough to go 8-8 year after year. Stuck forever in the mediocre triangle, then Ben walks away and you're already 3 hard years into LeVeon's career with no real future qb on the horizon.

I'm just saying keeping Ben might actually retard things rather than help.

The only way I could agree with that plan is if they were going to amass enough picks to get their choice from another Eli, Rivers, Ben trio of prospects in a given draft. While keeping Ben may trap you in mediocrity, trading him and then having to start a Geno Smith level miscast franchise prospect from a bad draft class would lead to a death spiral.

While I think this team is bad, I don't think they are too far away from turning it around.