Originally Posted by XxKnightxX
Ben supposedly being given the option to pass or run in a critical 3rd down-and-middle-distance situation and he opted to hand it off? Color me skeptical...
Yeah I can't believe Ben would have agreed to run that play on third down. Still reminds me of that 2007 Wild Card game against the Jags when on third & 6 a QB Draw was called and, we all know how that game ended.
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I don't know, if you read the entire article, the logic for Ben to hand it off makes a lot of sense. In basic terms, the defense played a pass so Ben decided to play the odds and hand it off, knowing that both the run and pass options of that play worked well.
But I'm far, far away from blaming the game on that play. After all, Ben fumbled giving great field position early for a TD, Antonio Brown dropped a pass on a flea-flicker that would've gone for a TD. Wheaton dropped a first down pass that killed a drive (or a couple). Our defense had numerous occasions where they had someone stopped, and then forgot to tackle. And then there's all the fifteen yard penalties on offense that are inexcusable, not to mention the "five yards and first down" hands to the face penalties in pass protection. I don't care what anyone else thinks about those, there's NO reason a defender should be taking "hands to the face" penalties."
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I saw Ben's head shake right after and no way anything other than hand off to Bell got to Ben. Maybe an option was called, maybe, but it was not conveyed. Or maybe Tomlin is passing the buck. Maybe Tomlin did not want to chance the OL and leave it up to the punter?
Why would our ball slinging 4th quarter comeback QB hand the ball off when he needs five yards to win the game???
Whatever the truth is, we still lost to an inferior team.
All Defense!
Why can no one believe that Ben would choose to hand off in that situation? Against that front it was the sound fundamental football decision. Now, we can argue that a package run play that the Bucs have seen on film dozens of times might not have been the best option to have called there...but I don't think it is so inconceivable that Ben would call a run in that situation.
Unless we are all buying into this guy's coaching theories:
"Winners always Want the Ball!"
I think the problem might more be the play itself. If they were going to call a run play, why THAT one? They should take the wrap-around draw and rip it out of the playbook. That said, I would have gone play-action with a quick hitter to Heath or something to pick up those 5 yards.Why can no one believe that Ben would choose to hand off in that situation? Against that front it was the sound fundamental football decision. Now, we can argue that a package run play that the Bucs have seen on film dozens of times might not have been the best option to have called there...but I don't think it is so inconceivable that Ben would call a run in that situation.
Unless we are all buying into this guy's coaching theories:
"Winners always Want the Ball!"
Yeah. i don't the like the specific run play (especially in hindsight) but I can totally understand choosing to run the ball in that situation.
It's what Cowher would have done...
A QB who for years has taken sacks rather than easy dump-offs because he's looking for the home run play? I have to suspend my disbelief a bit to swallow it, personally. If it had been 3rd-and-2, I could even find it easier to believe. But a 3rd-and-5 situation to boot? It just doesn't pass the smell test for me.
In most cases the simplest explanation is the truth. Anything more complicated than what was in the article there is an elaborate conspiracy and cover-up that at the very least involves Tomlin, Haley, Gradkowski (who has a headset radio), several quality control/assistant coaches, and the 11 guys in the huddle.
I my workplace we can't even keep it a secret when someone farts. No getting about 2 dozen guys to all agree to the same BS story...
I know Ben is aggressive by nature, but when you have the 2nd best rushing attack in the league and you get a pass focused defensive look on an option play call...
Only need to look one post away...
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2014/...-it-out-quick/Despite all of the mistakes, the Steelers still had a chance to win the game and it all came down to needing one first down to put it away. Why was it not up to Ben to make a play?
“I am never going to second guess our offensive coordinator,” Roethlisberger said. “They had a play they thought was going to be a good one. We have to execute the play that is called and do it to the best of our ability. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t”
Roethlisberger admits that he likes to have the ball in his hands in the final minutes of the game.
“As a competitor, I always want the ball in my hands at the end of the game,” Roethlisberger added. “I feel that I have thrived in that situation in past years whether in college, high school or here. If you ask any competitor at any level they will tell you they want the ball in their hands at the end of the game because they feel they are going to make a play.”
Merry Christmas
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Seems to be at odds with the choice was Ben's.
Regardless to me there was one series and then later one particular play call from earlier that set the momentum in the wrong direction and essentially set the table for defeat. The series of course was the Steelers final first half possession. After having watched the series several times I have come away with the conclusion that the Steelers intentionally played the clock first, and score second. In other words instead of aggressively pursuing a touchdown to close out the half, they hedged their bet by dragging out their plays so if the drive ended up short of scoring territory they wouldn't be giving the Bucs the ball with much time left. I know they called timeouts, but they approached the line on every play as if they were lovers strolling in the park Anyway Ben needlessly clocks the ball and we get a yard too far for our kicker and by so doing give the Bucs a huge lift going into half. Being down only one score after being beat around like a pinata was a huge win for the Bucs and I think this series is what gave the Bucs the steam they came out with in the second half.
Then came the play that defined this coaching staff's philosophy of playing not to lose, rather than playing to win. That would be the attempted pooch punt by Ben on 4th and 2 at the Bucs 37 with a 7 point lead in the 3rd quarter. That chicken shit call was 100% on Tomlin. The Steelers offense hadn't been forced to punt for 5 straight series prior to that. So why coming out of Lovie Smith's time out can't you come up with a play call to get two yards? Get up two scores there and you take away all the momentum the Bucs gained on the opening series of the 2nd half. And remember this series came as a result of your first interception of the year. So by coming away with nothing there you give the Bucs a huge win there.
When is this team going to wake up to the fact that they have to keep scoring points to have any chance to win? They were brilliant in chasing down a ten point deficit and establishing a lead. They were brilliant again after being tied on the opening possession of the third quarter. But as soon as they get the lead the mindset changes. Yeah obviously they want to score, but they don't have any urgency. To me they need to play every possession as they they're tied or losing. To me the worst thing that happened was that Tampa didn't score a tying touchdown rather than the fg that got them within 4. Because if they had tied the game earlier, then the Steelers urgency changes and they likely get another score.
.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
Roethlisberger explained run-pass option on 3rd and 5 better. Said only pass is if Heath was uncovered. Happened earlier in game for 19 yds
https://twitter.com/MarkKaboly_Trib/...52860426993664
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So in other words if Heath is covered, which presumably he was, then Ben had no option but to hand off. Which makes Tomlin's answer deceptive and misleading, though not an outright lie. But more to the point what will resonate to the players in that huddle is that Tomlin passed the buck rather than take the blame for a poor play call.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
I don't know - Tomlin said he called the play, so I don't see how he passed the buck. Passing the buck would be him saying "I dunno, you'll have to ask Todd about that."
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By passing the buck I'm saying he inferred that Ben had the option to pass but chose not to. Therefore one could say Ben ultimately was the one who played the down passively.
But given proper context what I'm reading now is that Ben had only one pass option on the play. Once he establishes that Heath is covered by the defense they're in he has little choice but to hand off unless he goes rogue and calls a time out. With the personal grouping they had on the field there probably wasn't a great audible to go to either. .
"A man's got to know his limitations."
The play was previously run in the game for 19, 16, and 13 yards. I would say it is a fairly effective play. Now perhaps going to the well one to many times...but poor play?
Bashing the coaches just to bash the coaches doesn't do much.
Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute">
Only having one pass option on a critical 3rd and 5 doesn't seem like that great a play call to me.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
I see that you prefer to live in the world of hindsight. I wish you well.Only having one pass option on a critical 3rd and 5 doesn't seem like that great a play call to me.
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It's not hindsight it's insight. If Tomlin wanted to be honest with us he'd just say we ran a play where we were pretty much locked into a run unless they gave us the remarkable gift of not accounting for the guy who caught 10 balls during the game on a 3rd and 5 play. Might as well just say we thought as long as we got off the punt ok we'd be giving them the ball with 40 seconds to play and no time outs and even our lousy defense should be able to handle that.
But it's was the wrong move and I'll tell you why, and it has nothing to do with what actually happened.
It was the wrong move because the way they call defensive penalties these days, combined with our defensive personnel the chance of a game changing penalty giving them a great touchdown chance was too great. Even as negative as I can be I didn't honestly think they could move the ball the way they did.
So I was wrong too.
Last edited by zulater; 10-01-2014 at 07:31 PM.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
So a play that, based on all the information and actual facts available, was run 3 previous times in the game and gained 19 (pass to Heath), 16, and 13 (both runs by Bell) wasn't a "good" or "acceptable" call on 3rd and 5? All three of the previous yardage totals for the play are greater than 5.
So 5 wides and let Ben figure it out? Wasn't that the Arians offense that you hated? Or perhaps 3 TE's and a fullback in the power I? Wouldn't that be taking the air out of the ball and not being aggressive?
A play was called that had success against this defense previously. While the passing options out of the formation are extremely limited, they do exist. If they take the TE away, then Ben checks to a run and there you go. Seems reasonable enough.
Or we can all continue to post "AAAAARGGGHHHHH. TERRIBLE PLAY CALL! I would have totally called something that worked. I won't say what that is, but I know it would have worked! They are all bums!"
That is the internet equivalent of standing in yard in your underwear and bathrobe shaking your fist at the sky and yelling incoherent ramblings at the clouds.
Play calling isn't going to get around the fact that 5 offensive lineman were asked to block 5 defenders and open enough of crack that the HB could slip through for 5 yards. Shockingly, they failed to execute that relatively basic task. We can blame that on preparation, play calling, scheme, player-coach relationships and who sang kumbaya to who, or we can take a sober and unemotional look at this team and realize that, right now, 2-3 of the offensive line positions are still manned by the human equivalent of this:
NOW it makes more sense to me...
Never mind - day late and dollar short again.
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So which ball of Tomlin's is best to swing from anyway?
So all situations are equal in your world when it comes to play calling? Calling a play on first and 10 at midfield in the middle of the second quarter after having already gained 3 first downs in a possession is the same as 3rd and 5 with the game riding on the outcome? 2nd and 3 at their 40 is the same as 3rd and 5 at your own 17? You'd figure the same sort of success rate regardless of down and distance and defensive alignment opposite you for a play call? Wow!
Last edited by zulater; 10-02-2014 at 12:39 AM.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
At least I'm trying to separate facts from opinion. You're just yelling at the passing clouds and attempting to analyze the psychological relationships between players and the coaching staff based on soundbites of athlete cliches and coach-speak non-sense.So which ball of Tomlin's is best to swing from anyway?
So all situations are equal in your world when it comes to play calling? Calling a play on first and 10 at midfield in the middle of the second quarter after having already gained 3 first downs in a possession is the same as 3rd and 5 with the game riding on the outcome? 2nd and 3 at their 40 is the same as 3rd and 5 at your own 17? You'd figure the same sort of success rate regardless of down and distance and defensive alignment opposite you for a play call? Wow!
It was a decent front to run against. It is a style of football that I do not prefer, but it isn't a ridiculous decision. And since I leveled this critique your way, I will attempt to own two things.
First, the continued reporting on this issue by the media (actual journalism in sports? amazing!) has me considering revising some of my opinion. It looks like Tomlin tried to brush over this play call. Second, I would have preferred to see a multi WR set and throw the damn ball for real in that situation. But that is just me. I also would never punt inside my opponents 40 and would go for it on all 4th downs under yard.
For the record I prefer to swing from the left one. It is a little rounder.
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Thank you. Nothing you're saying here do I disgree with. Well except for the left ball being a little rounder. I've heard otherwise.
Seriously I'm with you. I would have preferred they played the down more aggressively. But as Mike Corleone said to Tom Hagen when it was revealed that Tessio was the trader rather than Clemenza, it was the smart move. If you follow.In other words playing the clock was probably the smart move. With an average punt and non hideous defense that move should work out 95%+ of the time. Even with the bad punt, 46 yards in 40 seconds with no time outs, and a fg does you no good. I mean it defies logic and the odds that we blew that lead without having the punt blocked or committing a25+ yard penalty. But somehow we managed to!
What's bothering me now is that Tomlin didn't own it. Just say yeah the odds were really in our favor as long as the punt isn't blocked or returned. It didn't work out but the plan was sound. The execution wasn't.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
Yeah. I totally see what you are getting out now.Thank you. Nothing you're saying here do I disgree with. Well except for the left ball being a little rounder. I've heard otherwise.
Seriously I'm with you. I would have preferred they played the down more aggressively. But as Mike Corleone said to Tom Hagen when it was revealed that Tessio was the trader rather than Clemenza, it was the smart move. If you follow.
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Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/...#ixzz3ExhX77X3Ben Roethlisberger said the so-called run-pass option play that lost two yards on third-and-five in the decisive final minute against Tampa Bay isn't a true option. “It's a run play that, if they don't cover a guy, you can throw to him,” he said. “So it's not really a check-to-a-pass play. The line was blocking run all the way, so it's not like you can drop back and throw a pass.” Tomlin called the play.
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Ben laid it all out there. If Ben is telling the truth then Tomlin was deceptive in his inference that Ben had the final say in the matter. Just because the play worked earlier doesn't it make it the right play call in every situation against every defense.
3rd and 5. Game on the line. I want more than one viable pass option on the play every time. No hindsight involved. It's out there for future reference.
A good coach can make the wrong play call.Or maybe it was the right call but just didn't work? Regardless a good coach secure in his call shouldn't deflect and infer someone else had the final say in the call after the fact if the play call didn't work. Especially when saying so was disingenuous to say the least.
Last edited by zulater; 10-02-2014 at 05:40 AM.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
Array title="Count Steeler has a reputation beyond repute">
What worries me more now is the Ben version vs. Tomlin version. Maybe not all the cancers have been removed from the locker room just yet.
Tomlin's answer about being called a player coach has me concerned.
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No doubt. I get the sense that Ben resented the way Tomlin presented the play call to the press. Whether it was Tomlin's intent or not his version came across as saying the play call presented Ben with either option to pass or run. So when you first heard this you got the sense that Ben was the guy who played it too close to the vest. But then once you see Ben's version, if true, then Tomlin's comments were misleading. At best.
Anyway I don't think Ben was real happy with the way it was presented to the press by Tomlin. It wasn't real smart of Tomlin to throw that out there without offering the further clarification that Ben supplied later.
And yes I stand by the opinion that was a bad play call if your thought was to aggressively pursue the clinching first down, irregardless of the success of the play in different circumstances earlier in the game.
Now if the thought process was let's make sure we burn up the entire play clock before punting. That should be good enough as long as the punt isn't blocked or returned for a touchdown. Then the play call was marvelous. And look that thought had merit, even if you disagree with it. But own it afterwards. Don't come out with the b.s. that the play call offered all options afterwards when that statement was very misleading. Yes it offered a and underline a pass option. But it was avery narrow one, and given the game that Heath had had to the point, if there was one guy that wasn't going to be uncovered, it was going to be the guy with the best hands who had caught ten passes previously in the game. .
"A man's got to know his limitations."
Array title="Count Steeler has a reputation beyond repute">
I take issue with the whole attitude of the team after they stopped Tampa's 2nd to last drive. THE GAME WAS NOT OVER!!! Even in the game thread there were exclamations of "we got this one now". Tampa had 2 time outs left and if they stopped us, they would get the ball back with about 40 seconds left. Plenty of time to do damage against a team that thinks the game is home and cooled out. THIS is my problem with the attitude on this team. PLAY 60 minutes and leave it on the field.
We don't have our eyes on the big picture anymore. One play a game does not make. One game a season does not make. One playoff appearance a SB does not make. Talent aside, if we don't have a solid work ethic for 60 minutes, 16 games and 3 playoff games, we ain't going anywhere. First thing we have to conquer is a solid work ethic for 60 minutes. Repeat the next week. Repeat the next week. And on, and on. Attitude needs change.
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