It is very easy to see that the poor pass rush is a result of the talent or should I say lack of talent of the players. Neither of Jarvis, Moats nor Chickillo will be mistaken for Von Miller. Harrison is the best pass rusher and he is 38 yo how do you blame Tomlin for that. The blame lies directly on Colbert for not addressing the pass rush.Originally Posted by steelerdude15
Not to nitpick, but I hate the term "didn't address". It implies that nothing was done about an issue and someone in responsibility just whistled past the graveyard and hoped for the best. In the case of the Steelers defense - that isn't true. Defense has had 2 issues for several years now - pass rush and secondary. Colbert and the coaches have attempted to address both. Going back to 2010:
2010 - 2 pass rushers in the first 4 picks
2011 - 2 pass rushers and 2 DBS in the first 5 picks
2012 - didn't really do much here - this was the don't let Ben die draft with 3 offensive linemen taken
2013 - 1 pass rusher and 1 DB taken in the first 4 rounds
2014 - Pass rush help taken with the first two picks
2015 - Pass rush and DB with 3 of the first 4 picks
2016 - First 3 picks address secondary and pass rush
That is team that is spending serious attention and resources on getting talent in the back end of the defense and across the edges up front into the system. Now, what we can really dig into is that all that talent is either hurt, not yet ready for prime time, is being used incorrectly, or wasn't actually talent. That is a really interesting set of questions and discussions.
Saying that Colbert, Tomlin, or whoever didn't address this or that issue or whatever is just boring and lazy.
I am not advocating that anyone be blamed. However, the title of and discussion in the thread are that Tomlin should be fired. Therefore for the purpose of discussion I am saying that IF we are going to blame someone IF we are saying that someone is to be held accountable IF someone is to be fired it should be Colbert and not Tomlin for the reason I expounded on in the above post.
As to your point that Colbert attempted to address the pass rush in previous years you are correct. However that does not change the fact that the pass rush coming into this season was still well below par and therefore STILL needed to be addressed and he did not do it - A particularly egregious faux pas given that the consensus best pass rusher in the draft was still available when Pittsburgh was on the clock
Mojouw is correct. Kevin and Mike DID attempt to address the pass rushing issue by drafting two outside linebackers in the first round over the past few years. Jarvis had 13.5 sacks during his junior year and 14.5 sacks in his senior year, while also playing in the best conference in college football. He just hasn't turned into anything so that can't be Kevin's fault. Bud is hurt so there's that.
Those two also invested in the defensive line by taking Cam in the first round and Stephon in the second round.
We've had this discussion in about 2 other thread this past week or so - I'm not thrashing it out again.
I will just say this: Who plays CB and Safety this year in the Spence in the first round draft? How does a 4-3 pass rushing DE (that is what Spence is at this point - he has zero track record of standing up and playing in space as an OLB) fit with the rest of the Steelers scheme?
For the record, I was a fan of Spence in the lead-up to the draft and made a post or two around here that he should receive strong consideration for selection in the first round. I also liked what I had heard about Burns. My opinion, based on almost nothing tangible, was that Burns had the highest ceiling of any of the projected 1st round corners. Am I right? Who the hell knows. But I do know that cover corners that can intercept the ball do not grow on non 1st round trees and the Steelers have needed one for about 4 years. In fact, the last 2-3 drafts they would have taken one except that their "guy" didn't make it to them.
It will be fascinating to debate this issue moving forward by tracking Burns and Spence careers. So far, Burns is actually on the field and contributing. Spence is not. Does that trend continue? Who knows.
You are right Colbert did attempt to address Harrison's pending retirement by drafting Jarvis. However, once he concluded that Jarvis was not the answer, then the pass rush STILL needed to be addressed. The best pass rusher was available and the Colbert bypassed him.
However even if I were to agree that Colbert adequately addressed the pass rush (I don't but for sake of argument), how can anyone blame Tomlin either. The team has no pass rush talent how do you blame him. If anything no one should be blamed
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Yes, awe1028 is a broken record on this. He keeps harping on it again and again and again, no matter how many times it's been discussed. The way that he talks, you'd think that Spence was Khalil Mack.
“I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play!” - Jack Lambert
Who do you keep referring to? What is this person's name?
Here is another thing. The Steelers' defense had 48 sacks last year, which was the third highest amount in the NFL, only behind the Broncos (52 sacks) and Patriots (49 sacks). Since the pass rush did well last year and the secondary needed attention because it was horrendous, it made sense to put an emphasis on drafting defensive backs and not pass rushers.
Bud Dupree doesn't exist? I mean he is a pass rusher, a first round pick, and a fairly well regarded one at that. Now, Dupree may continue to show talent/physical attributes and not an elite level of production or he may blossom into a QB wrecking machine. Only time will tell and that is the fun part of the draft. We can all have an opinion, but over the next 3-5 years we all don't get to be correct.
Additionally, in terms of "pass rush talent" - have you seen what happens when they blitz Shazier through the A gaps? Holy smokes! Dude is so stupid fast that he is usually in the backfield while the guard is still getting out of his stance. Now if he could only stay healthy...Also there is a guy on the roster who has only played in the NFL for 3 weeks, but prior to that he was basically a one man holy terror at the FBS level.
With the exception of 2009 and 2013, the Steelers rarely lose two games in a row under Tomlin.
I'm pretty sure he's referring to Noah Spence who after 4 games as a Buccaneer has 1 tackle and one sack...
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Yes, he is.
“I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play!” - Jack Lambert
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We don't subscribe to that hocus pocus...
PATRIOTS**
BUNGLES
Steelers - 18 Bengals - 16 #0in25 #anotherseasonBungled
-¤ HTG ¤-
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It's not all Tomlin.
I feel Ben plays much different against poor teams.
"With love, with patience, and with Faith
....She'll make her way" ~ Natalie Merchant
Miami's game comes to mind.
love him or hate him, you gotta admit Cowherd has a point. And if i remember correctly, Tomlin has by far the lowest winning percentage against teams that are under .200 among active coaches. Thats just embarrassing no matter how you spin it
I have to agree with him.
Not ever loss is the coaches fault. But he is saying words that I have said for awhile now , alot of us has been saying.
You can see very, very clearly that this team has never been "buttoned up." You see it with the undisciplined play. People continue to say that it's on the players but the coaches have a very big part in that and it's lacking. Always has been. The Alabama analogy is a good one. That's all I ever asked for...consistency.
That sub .500 record is atrocious...that's a "fireable" offense in my opinion. That far outweighs the "big wins."
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As does Ben...
"With love, with patience, and with Faith
....She'll make her way" ~ Natalie Merchant
I have always felt Tomlin is an average coach at best. If you give this team to an average coach the results will be the same. The one area I see that is a constant with Tomlin's Steelers is a lack of discipline. I should add inconsistency.
Across the the entire team who are the players that are 100% keepers? BR, Brown and Bell. Out of those 3 I have no problem trading Brown or Bell for the right deal. Bell might not play in the NFL next year due to his drug addiction.
On defense you have Heyward, but he isn't all that. I think many feel he is great because everyone else sucks. Ok, not everyone sucks, but I don't see any stars. Shazier can't stay healthy.
The only player who isn't expendable is BR. That's because good QBs are hard to find.
Just my opinion. Perhaps it will change a little by tomorrow.
Hater = Realist
Sure can tell this is a bye week........after a loss.
Colbert has created the team that Tomlin wanted and that Ben wanted. This is now an offensive football team. Tomlin and Colbert have drafted so many good wide receivers plus Bell.
Colbert is going to take the blame for a piss poor secondary and defense? But I thought Tomlin was a DB guru? Wasn't he a DB coach on one of the all-time great defenses in Tampa?
Oh it is Colbert's fault that Worilds retired early, Keenan left for NO, Tomlin plays Blake and Golden etc.
Wait... wasn't this defense Lebeau's fault? Why isn't the defense elite now? So it wasn't Arians or Lebau's fault hmm?
Nobody really seems bothered that the Steelers haven't legitimately won a playoff game since 2010. That Bengals circus show beat themselves last year at the end of the game in a Roethlisberger vs McCarron matchup...
Look... this Steelers team isn't Colbert's fault. The talent is there on offense. There are key pieces missing on defense. Bottom line is this team has an outside chance to win the Superbowl.
I don't fully blame Tomlin other than I don't like the offense first and pass happy philosophy he uses. There is a reason why teams can have more success with a rookie QB and high efficiency plays. This team goes as Ben goes and he is nowhere close to being Mr. Consistent. This is 100% Ben's team and has been for a number of years. Ben deserves the credit when he lights up the Broncos and Seahawks but he also deserves the blame when he puts up 3 on the Dolphins.
A good chunk of the trash on the roster is Colberts fault. He's ultimately responsible for the players that have been drafted and a lot of those players have been garbage. He's passed up some good players for junk. ie) Cliff Avril? He drafts Bruce Davis instead of Cliff Avril?!? Come on. That's poor player evaluation.
There's a HUGE lack of depth on this roster as well...Colberts fault.
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There are a lot of other things that can lead to a good player becoming trash such as poor coaching, a poor team culture and of course smoking pot.
"With love, with patience, and with Faith
....She'll make her way" ~ Natalie Merchant
the entire 2008 Steelers draft class was a clusterfuck:
Selections
1 (23): Rashard Mendenhall, RB, Illinois
2 (53): Limas Sweed, WR, Texas
3 (88): Bruce Davis, OLB, UCLA
4 (130): Tony Hills, OT, Texas
5 (156): Dennis Dixon, QB, Oregon
6 (188): Mike Humpal, LB, Iowa
6 (194): Ryan Mundy, FS, West Virginia
2008 was 8 years ago. More than twice the length of the average NFL career. That draft class is not the sole or even main reason behind any depth problems that might kinda sorta maybe exist.
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Remember that time when the Steelers drafted Gabe Rivera instead of Dan Marino...
2009 wasn't much better.
What's the average number of players that stick on an original teams roster after being drafted?
2009 was a strange draft.
Hood was miscast. Urbik and Shipley never made it past the first training camp, but are both still starting for other teams. Lewis was a good pick, who left. And, Wallace was a GREAT pick (32 TDs in four seasons) who left and became average. Johnson was a decent pick for R7 (although, he is infamous for missing that block in XLV).
I heard a GM talk about the draft, and he said that your goal is one starter, one backup, and one special teams player. Anything else is a "bonus".
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