Watched a good deal of Lions/Bears, Jags/Browns, and Rams/Ravens.
Applying the standards from this thread for penalties, execution, and clock management - every single head coach involved in those games should be joining Tomlin at the unemployment line.
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Yeah and Pickett and Trubisky are really unlucky. Funny how that works.Originally Posted by Mojouw
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Peterson is an idiot. You have to kick extra point there.
There’s no reasonable way that you watched that game and thought Flacco didnt get lucky. He had tons of short fields and his defense cleaned up every mistake.
He had a decent game that if his defense didn’t just kick butt would’ve been a loss.
He’s better than Trubisky. But who isnt?
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I watched that whole game and reasonably thought that Flacco looked better than every qb start of the Steelers this season.
And Danny Devito for the Giants and every other off the street free agent.
Better than the Steelers is a meaningless statement.
They’ve gotten the worst QB play in the league.
Bad QBs mired in a broken system.
That doesn’t mean Flacco wasn’t still lucky.
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That’s my point!!!! Everybody is better at quarterback than the Steelers! And the reason is Tomlin at this point.
Tomlin needs this shirt to roam the sidelines in ....
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. 4 teams in 5 years and traded twice in one off season
Maybe?
He’s not throwing the passes.
Trubisky might be the worst mentally in the entire league on any roster anywhere.
And that’s on Tomlin or someone for signing him. I guess.
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The team captains keep saying it's execution, and it starts at film study. Even the fans aren't listening to them.
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It sounds like MT has lost the locker room honestly. Losing sucks, but this is a team with a winning record and currently in the middle of a playoff hunt and they are falling apart. Bad teams with bad coaches on losing teams do that. This isn’t a bad team, isn’t currently a losing team, so coaching isn’t working for them, not pulling them together. I see next season as MTs last unless they somehow turn it around before next game and they have a great next season.
The best one was when Harbaugh challenged an obvious touchdown that had already been automatically reviewed.
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The difference is tenure. Tomlin is 10+ years sporting a big nothing burger except his streak of non losing. Okay, I concede. Tomlin is a non loser. But it’s time, just like it was for Reid, McCarthy and others in recent past.
So the standard is not player execution and preparation and whatever other details have floated around this thread....but frequency of winning "something"? What is enough? I wild-card weekend win? A division round win? Only Championship game appearances?
The Chiefs had a game winning play nullified because a WR lined up improperly. Isn't that one of those detail things that only happens to Tomlin because he's a players coach and not these wonderful amazing game winning coaches like Andy Reid?
Or what about the fact that Reid's team is only ONE game better than the Steelers despite having Mahomes and a roughly equivalently talented defense? That includes a home loss to the Lions that they looked like they sleep-walked through. Or the fact that the entire team has no receiver with reliable hands besides Kelce? If that was the case in Pittsburgh that would be a Tomlin offense...but no one mentions that here when they extoll the virtues of Reid.
Using the standards applied here, the Steelers should fire a coach after every 3 seasons or so. There is no coaching performance that would fit the rough set of parameters that have come together in this thread.
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You overanalyze everything until it means nothing. Everything means something. Nothing means everything. When it's time to make a change, you make it. It's called leadership. Maybe Rooney has it, but I don't see it yet. I'm proud that we only have three coaches since 1969. But is the team never allowed to move on from a head coach in order to uphold that tradition? How many years since a playoff win? How many years since it's been that long? Those are pretty important stats. Im not sure what a Chiefs player lining up offsides has to do with any of this, but in your world, you'll connect the dots.
If Andy Reid's players continue to make those same game-altering mistakes multiple times over multiple seasons, AND the team isn't getting playoff wins, then I'd suspect that his office chair will be getting warm.
There's enough anecdotal evidence to question whether Tomlin and the team would be best parting ways.
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These last 2 losses truly broke a lot of fans and a lot of Tomlin defenders (that would be me). He really needs to do something amazing to win me back. A playoff appearance with a win this year would be the only thing that could win me over. I'll even take a close loss if we play solid ball and lose.
I watched a lot of football this Sunday, well.. I watched Red Zone mostly but it's wild how many times I seen guys WIDE OPEN on a blown coverage. No one EVER slips and falls when they play us, WE always slip and fall. That seems odd given how bad our field is at times but it shows that the defense knows what we are going so there are no cuts that surprise a defender, no misdirection that has a defender going right while a WR or TE cuts left and runs for daylight.
There was a game that was 3-0 and I bet it had more highlights than we do. We are just boring and predictable on offense and no one seems to make a play or does anything amazing.
welcome to the board feltdizz, I feel the same exact way.
nice to see you posting here
Knee jerk reactions based on totally unrealistic expectations is not leadership.
If it was, Tepper would be a fantastic owner instead of franchise wrecking machine.
Chiefs screwing up and losing the game is pretty applicable since we read after every Steelers lose how no other teams have this or that problem. Other coaches don’t stand for this stuff. And a bunch of nonsense that doesn’t align with the harsh reality of the NFL every week.
Hiring and keeping Canada was all on Tomlin. He screwed that up and broke an entire side of the team as a result.
Nothing short of an offseason to reset and restore confidence will fix the offense.
Is it enough to bring down Tomlin? It certainly could be. There’s plenty of precedent.
But to whine that procedure penalties are somehow something is just silly. Most of the league is hit with maddening penalties from mind numbing mistakes by players each week.
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You won’t find me whining about penalties but to compare Tepper and this situation is comical.
I get your point, but the issue isn't mundane procedure penalties. It's the totality of the situation. Nobody would bat an eyelash at penalties if they weren't a symptom of a larger problem.
A nose bleed is no big deal. But, a nosebleed combined with consistent headaches, loss of weight, blurred vision and diarrhea is a major cause for concern.
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Ok. You're not. But others are. And if it was unfair or poor form of me to lump everyone together, then I apologize.
This entire stew pot of thread is just a mess of conflicting and mutually exclusive complaints.
My entire point is that when you want to assess something or measure something you have to agree on what you're units of measurement are going to be, what you are measuring with, and what your goal is.
For some it is playoff wins, but no one says how many is enough or how often is acceptable, just more wins.
For some it is style of player and even winning isn't enough because they did it the wrong way.
For some it is seemingly about player attitudes and mental states.
For some it is a combination of these things that appears to float around based on mood.
For me, Tomlin screwed up the post Ben offensive transition. He hired the wrong coordinator and got sold a bill of goods on what that coordinator was capable of. He also signed off on the wrong OL coach. He also greenlight the wrong QB in my estimation. But even if KP is the right QB the entire approach to his development post-draft was 100% wrong in every single way.
The rest of the stuff? That is just details from the gravity of collapse of the entire offensive system due to having the wrong OC and QBs.
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It seems that Tomlin has lost what he does best: galvanize the team and get them to rally. Of course he has four games left to prove he can still do that. What I mean is do that with this team and organization. I don't think he's ever been a great X and O's coach, but he's a good leader (and still one of my favorite people in the world). More than anything, I think the team needs a change in style. I'd like to see an offensive minded X and O's guy come in. Tomlin will never be that. My issue with Tomlin isn't penalties, discipline, clock management, etc. It's philosophy. What he lacks in, he also seems unwilling to surround himself with people who have those strengths. That, to me, is his greatest leadership flaw. I'd give him the last year on his contract to fix that and if he couldn't, I'd move on.
I can see that.
I disagree. I think few other coaches would have won even half the games Tomlin has over the last two years with this offense. And I FULLY ACKNOWLEDGE that it was a self-inflicted wound as far as we know. Unless ownership "meddled" more than we are aware....Tomlin did it to himself. Despite the fact that he tied the anchor to his own waist, it was still impressive to watch him tread water with it trying to drag him under.
I think that he needs a Haley or Arians level OC. The kinda guy who can come in and just run that side of the team. Other than Faulkner....I would fire everyone else. And if Faulkner is a casualty as well...so be it.
For me, what I would like to see is a shift from the points of emphasis being you are going to win a 17-14 rock fight every week where you just out "detail" the other guy. I think that is why these (relatively) little things seem so massive right now. The team has no margin for error. And playing mistake free football for a half, let alone an entire game, or a full season is just far too much to ask/expect.
For most of Ben's career...I remember thinking...."Well if they can keep to only being down 21 at the half....they can turn it around." That is an incredible margin of error. Now....it is more like 3 points.
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It is all indeed self-inflicted and he needs to be accountable for that. I think the only substantial thing we disagree on would be if you think Tomlin should get another 2-3 years to make great improvement with a new OC. Something that resembles a real professional offense would be considered improvement. That can be reflected in one season, or not.
For the playoff victory thing....here is an interesting one:
Since the Ravens won the SB in 2012, they and Harbaugh have 2 playoff victories and 5 losses.
Since 2012, the Steelers have 3 playoff victories and 6 losses.
How soon after Tomlin is shown the door should Harbaugh be fired?
Since their last SB victory in 2013 and SB loss in 2014....the Seahawks and Carroll have 3 wins and 6 playoff losses. Should Carroll be fired?
Since a SB victory in 2008, McCarthy has gone 6-8 in the playoffs with two teams and basically HOF level QB play. That one isn't about being fired....because he was and almost was a second time....but it is about context.
Since they won the SB, McVay is 3-3 and might not make it in this year....again context.
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I can get on board with that. No improvement all in 2024....fire everyone at some point.
After that....I don't have an answer for what "enough" improvement is or looks like at this point.
those 3 wins were vs 2 backup QBs and Alex Smith
Last edited by Dwinsgames; 12-12-2023 at 09:42 AM.
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. 4 teams in 5 years and traded twice in one off season
Ok.
So the parameters are:
# of playoff wins
Frequency of playoff appearances
Quality of playoff wins
What else?
how about winning the games you should win , dont collapse down the stretch , win a flipping playoff game more frequently than once every decade
Kenny Pickett is who I though he was .. 4 teams in 5 years and traded twice in one off season
Ok. We can add those.
How are we going to define “supposed to win”?
What constitutes a collapse? Do injuries ever explain anything or should they be discounted?
How frequently does a coach need to win playoff games? Is there other coaches doing it at that rate?
The above kinds of questions are not simply me being an ass. They’re the types of thinking organizations go through when developing parameters for assessment and evaluation.
And it almost never gets done when fans start baying for blood.
For instance we are all taking about draft picks. You posted how few of some draft classes are on the roster. That seems damning. But what does it look like across the league? I think the average career is 3-4 years. So maybe having most of a draft class already off the roster is normal? I’ve no idea. But it’s how we could determine if the Steelers are ahead, behind, or on the curve compared to their peers.
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