Look, regarding all of the above ... the salary cap is all about balance, and the payoff versus salary for elite tackles (or really any offensive line position) is probably the lowest of any position. The payoff in the average to good talent range for offensive linemen is excellent, but after that the price goes up so high it becomes a bad thing. That's further compounded by the fact that your offensive line is only as good as your weakest link, so if you don't have at least above-average players at every position, you might as well not be paying any of them. The fact that there are five OL spots also makes it extremely difficult to pay all of them well. One salary might not be totally unmanageable under the current cap structure, but five most certainly are; having only one or two star linemen doesn't do you any good at all. You'll either be spending a third of your salary cap on five guys, or using an inordinate number of high draft picks year in and year out. Neither of those is attractive.
That's why I hate the blue-chip offensive lineman idea. Not because hey, it's great to have a mediocre line, but because the math just doesn't work out. OL is the one position where a single great player makes the least difference. Spend the big money almost anywhere else on the field, and you'll get a bigger impact. You just want the offensive line to be competent; that's how it works in the league now. That makes the reverse of the Timmons/Shazier scenario almost laughable. Of course you'd take the mediocre OT depth chart.
Beyond all this, we'd probably be doing at least OK with the offensive line if a) We'd had decent coaching at the position, and b) we hadn't bombed on virtually every mid- and late-round OL pick for 10 years.
See you Space Cowboy ...
OK, how about this:
Shoot all the hairdressers! We don't needa be charged no $12 for no stinkin' haircut!
And another thing, all these planes that are crashing lately? They were shot down by Howard Stern. You're just listening to what they want you to believe, what they ALL want you to believe. Who? The government, it's run by vampires, you do realize. What do you mean, everybody knows that. At least in Alaska they do.
Did you know that in New York, a cab ride to the airport is like $100, and they don't even give ya a discount if yer in a wheelchair. Not like you'd need one anyway, know what I mean? huh huh huh.
Whaddya mean how am I gonna pay? I just gave you a bottlecap & like 2 whole fistfuls of pigeon feathers. WHERES MY FUCKIN PIZZA?!?!??? Who are you callin a fairweather fan? Get outta here! *throws cat*
See you Space Cowboy ...
No Orlando Pace and Kurt Warner is a maybe.
All Defense!
I agree to a point. We lack enough information to really evaluate the 1 versus all 5 argument. How does having mediocrity across the line affect scheme and assignments? What we do know is that the lack of quality tackle play is the primary reason that Heath Miller hasn't put up at least Jason Witten level #'s over his career. Miller spent far too many seasons (in my opinion) as a 3rd tackle. We also know that bad interior line play caused a crucial pick in the GB super bowl. Now did that come from bad interior players or from interior players "cheating" outside to help the crappy tackles? While I am not arguing that the Steelers need to field a high $ all-star line, they do need to get to the point where on any given play each member of that unit can concentrate solely on his assignment and not have to worry about "helping" his line-mates cover deficiencies in their game.
Yeah, I know what you're saying. We definitely want the line to be better than it was from circa 2007-2011, for all of the above reasons.
I do think that the problems tend to show up wherever the crappy player is, inside or out. When we had Mahan, it was Mahan getting abused; when we had Stapleton, it was Stapleton getting abused; when we had Jonathan Scott, it was Scott getting abused. Of course, it didn't help that the rest of the players were just average, but in my mind, with the way the line was so cartoonishly bad in 2007-09, with a guy coming completely unblocked on half the plays, it really seemed that more often than not, the weakest guy was the one making the whole thing collapse.
For that Super Bowl interception that you mentioned ... we had pretty decent tackles that year - Flozell Adams and Max Starks, neither of whom were great, but both of whom were respectable at that point; exceeding expectations, if you will. Then of course, Starks wound up on injured reserve and we were treated to Jonathan Scott for the rest of the season. Ironically, Scott wasn't even a part of that play - his guy backed up and then did a delayed rush, and they didn't even make contact until the ball was thrown. Meanwhile, Adams did a good job keeping his guy out, Foster stood around looking for someone to block, Legursky had a little trouble with his guy (B.J. Raji), but Kemoeatu caused the interception by getting straight-up murdered 1-on-1. Whether that was because he was "cheating" or not, we'll never know, but to me it looked like the plan was for Legursky to block Raji, Adams to block the LE or LOLB depending on who rushed, Foster to take the LE if the linebacker rushed, or help with Raji if he didn't, and for Kemo and Scott to block the guys in front of them 1-on-1. So there were no surprises, just Kemo getting his ass handed to him. You can be the judge of that.
Anyway. It's not my intention to argue with you about any of this, just an interesting exercise ... I definitely feel where you're coming from, and to have the line swing to the depths it did a few years ago, well, I don't think anyone wants that. But what I do think is that five competent players make a far better line than 3 or 4 great ones and 1 or 2 terrible ones. Make no mistake, having a guy like Pouncey on the team definitely helps them on the field. Does his contract give me pause? Absolutely. If we had the option to take 5 players of Velasco's level for $3M or $4M a pop, I'd probably do that in a heartbeat.
See you Space Cowboy ...
.James C Wexell @jimwexell · 4h Howard Jones just beat Mike Adams inside and on next rep outside in one on one drills.
- Offensive tackle Mike Adams has struggled during the first week of camp. Adams, who got bowled over by rookie nose tackle Daniel McCullers on Wednesday, allowed rookie outside linebacker Howard Jones to run right past him in a pass rushing drill. Adams has been alternating practices when it comes to playing left and right tackle, and the third-year man needs to pick up his play.
There is definitely something to everything your saying. I wasn't trying to get in a huge fight either - I think for me it is just frustration with not seeing a consistently above average, let alone dominant line from the Steelers since sometime during the middle part of Cowher's tenure.
As to Adams getting beat in practice, it sounds like it is for the same reason as a long and undistinguished list of Steelers tackles; Scott, Starks (the best of a bad lot), Gilbert, Hillis, etc - -they all are slow and change direction with the nimbleness and grace of a Nimitz class aircraft carrier.
I don't find it surprising that Adams still kinda stinks. I was hoping that he got better, but whatever. I am far more concerned about this (from Dale Lolley's blog): "Spaeth had his way with Jarvis Jones in one-on-one run blocking drills. The two were paired five times and Spaeth won four of the matchups."
One on one and Spaeth hands him his lunch? So Jones isn't that fast, doesn't have many pass rush moves, and can't bull rush a TE - albeit a pretty good blocking TE-let alone a tackle? Shazier better be damn good. Or maybe we can just trade Adams to the other team each week. Jones might be able to beat him...
Strange, Tunch said he thought Jones was starting to looking good (the other day) and this from the PG today. Looks like he cleaned Millers clock in the pic…I think Jones will be fine.
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/s...s/201407300106
@ 26:14
http://www.steelers.com/video-and-au...a-0d4d28e0a494
Last edited by Shoes; 07-31-2014 at 10:17 PM.
Again, I am not sure that I agree with that premise. The NFL, in 2013, averaged just over $19 million per team on the offensive line. The Seahawks spend the most at $27 million. They are starting Okung ($9.54M), Carpenter ($2M), Unger ($6M), Sweezy ($500k), and Giacomini ($4.5M). They do not have elite level players across the board and do not pay elite level players but in 2 positions. They have a guy on a rookie contract (Carpenter), two high paid guys, and some manageable contracts to fill out the line.
In fact, the 4 teams that played in the Conference Championship games (Seattle, San Fran, Denver, New England) are #1, #6, #9, and #22 in spending on the offensive line with San Fran coming in at #22. San Fran is so low ($17M this season) because Staley is in the first season of his new 6 year, $44M contract. Iupati and Anthony Davis are still on their rookie deals. Kilgore and Snyder are low cost fill-ins. The common thread on these 4 teams are they all have quality left tackles. These 4 teams have Okung, Clady, Staley, and Solder.
Where do the Steelers fall on the spending for offensive line? 31st. The Steelers spent $10.7M on the offensive line last season. The highest paid offensive lineman right now is Pouncey. His salary cap number for this season is just over $5M. It will peak at just over $10M. Think about that. You complain about not wanting to pay a left tackle and the Steelers have left tackle cap hits at center because the line is so devoid of talent they had to keep the talent they do have. DeCastro will likely sign a new deal after this season and he is certain to get paid. If they drafted an elite left tackle today, he would play his rookie deal, which is very cheap, and by the time he was ready to get paid, Pouncey's contract would be coming off the books.
The key is to manage the salary cap, not shoot for lesser talent so you do not have to pay it. I would rather draft to be great and have to find ways to pay guys than strive to be average so I do not have those issues. If they draft a left tackle today, by the time he gets to his big money, Pouncey could be nearing the end of his career with DeCastro not far behind. Who else do the Steelers have to pay on that line? Gilbert? Foster? Adams? Beachum? You can afford two high end offensive linemen, keep a guy or two on their rookie deals, and scab in the rest. It is what the 4 teams that played for it all do.
I'm thinking Wesley Johnson may be the #2 behind Beach tomorrow. This kid has made mistakes but he seems to learn fast and it's pretty clear Munch is putting him to the test in every position on the O-line. I think Adams can be the barge and Landry Jones can be the cargo….send them on down the Ohio or the practice squad.
I dont get adams at all but he got the serious case of the lazy i wouldnt lose any sleep if he left
For those i love i will sacrifice.
Si ventus non est, remiga
Hasn't he always played better at right tackle? He could possibly make a good right tackle, but yeah, he doesn't get the job done at left tackle.