A look at the Steelers receiving corps

[Steelerette]

I wonder if post June-1 and post medical clearances, if some more looks at Jermichael are in the cards.

[TMC]

In 2002 and 2003 (Burress two best statistical seasons with the Steelers) they scored on around 1/3 (35% and 27%)of their drives. In 2013 they scored on slightly better than 1/3 (35%) of their offensive drives.

I am having trouble finding #'s over time for red zone efficiency. But I will say this, I am not certain that a tall WR has any impact on that # at all. I think that having a solid protection scheme that keeps pass-rushers off the QB and then can also open actual running lanes for the backs would help red zone efficiency. If I remember correctly, when the Steelers have been good in the red zone, it was never due to overwhelming skill position talent, but a solid wall up-front.

It all starts there. A high talent OT would likely have more of an impact on red zone efficiency next season than a tall WR.

In 2005, the year the Steelers won the Super Bowl, they were 4th in the NFL in redzone scoring. The WRs on roster were Hines Ward, Cedric Wilson, and ARE. Ward was the tallest at 5'11.5".

In 2008, when they won again, the receivers were Ward, Holmes, and Washington with Washington as the tallest. He is 6003. In 2010, when they went back to the Super Bowl, Mike Wallace was the tallest at 6003.

Victor Cruz, James Jones, and Wes Welker always seem to find the endzone and none of them are over 6'1". A lot of people point towards those "tall" WRs, but most of the prolific scorers are also very fast and can challenge DBs in a variety of ways. I think it should also be noted that big WRs like that seldom find a niche if they fail as a starter. They lack the tools needed to move down to play the slot (because quickness out of your breaks is important). So, many times, it is a boom or bust scenario. Some exceptions, but most are boom or bust.

With all that said, if the right tall WR is there, I am all over him. Of course, if the right short WR is there, I am taking him too.

[Mojouw]

In 2005, the year the Steelers won the Super Bowl, they were 4th in the NFL in redzone scoring. The WRs on roster were Hines Ward, Cedric Wilson, and ARE. Ward was the tallest at 5'11.5".

In 2008, when they won again, the receivers were Ward, Holmes, and Washington with Washington as the tallest. He is 6003. In 2010, when they went back to the Super Bowl, Mike Wallace was the tallest at 6003.

Victor Cruz, James Jones, and Wes Welker always seem to find the endzone and none of them are over 6'1". A lot of people point towards those "tall" WRs, but most of the prolific scorers are also very fast and can challenge DBs in a variety of ways. I think it should also be noted that big WRs like that seldom find a niche if they fail as a starter. They lack the tools needed to move down to play the slot (because quickness out of your breaks is important). So, many times, it is a boom or bust scenario. Some exceptions, but most are boom or bust.

With all that said, if the right tall WR is there, I am all over him. Of course, if the right short WR is there, I am taking him too.

All of that is why Benjamin scares the crap out of me in this draft. Apparently the Steelers have him high on the board (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/...elvin-benjamin) but across the NFL opinion seems divided at best (http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/...elvin-benjamin).

He seems like a boom or bust guy with no in between. If he is a monster in the red zone and along the sideline, he can be an excellent player. If he struggles and never masters the rest of the route tree, you have a tall version of Troy Edwards. Hopefully it won't be an issue, but the idea that the Steelers have him high makes me really nervous.

[TMC]

Well, all the big WRs have warts of some type. The real question is, which warts do you think you can remove or overlook?

Unless I felt a WR was a no-miss slam dunk in the first, I would rather wait. In a draft deep at the position, I think you could double down later and improve your chances of finding a good one. One thing the Steelers have done fairly well lately is find good WRs.

[Shoes]

In 2005, the year the Steelers won the Super Bowl, they were 4th in the NFL in redzone scoring. The WRs on roster were Hines Ward, Cedric Wilson, and ARE. Ward was the tallest at 5'11.5".

In 2008, when they won again, the receivers were Ward, Holmes, and Washington with Washington as the tallest. He is 6003. In 2010, when they went back to the Super Bowl, Mike Wallace was the tallest at 6003.

Victor Cruz, James Jones, and Wes Welker always seem to find the endzone and none of them are over 6'1". A lot of people point towards those "tall" WRs, but most of the prolific scorers are also very fast and can challenge DBs in a variety of ways. I think it should also be noted that big WRs like that seldom find a niche if they fail as a starter. They lack the tools needed to move down to play the slot (because quickness out of your breaks is important). So, many times, it is a boom or bust scenario. Some exceptions, but most are boom or bust.

With all that said, if the right tall WR is there, I am all over him. Of course, if the right short WR is there, I am taking him too.

Thats about how I see it also. But not Benjamin unless he's available in a later round.

[HollywoodSteel]

Well, all the big WRs have warts of some type. The real question is, which warts do you think you can remove or overlook?

Unless I felt a WR was a no-miss slam dunk in the first, I would rather wait. In a draft deep at the position, I think you could double down later and improve your chances of finding a good one. One thing the Steelers have done fairly well lately is find good WRs.

I'm not a big college football guy so I just go by what I hear this time of year, but if Evans is there it might be a decision. If we have to choose between the 2nd best receiver in the draft and the 2nd best corner, I'd probably breath a little easier if we take the corner. Especially since it seems like there will be receivers in the 2nd and 3rd rounds that would still be make Psycho Ward happy.

[Steelerette]

As much as I would rather fill another position in the 1st, the only way I'll really be against Evans is if Dennard is still there... and if they do get Evans I can't see how I would really be mad about it. Though lamenting the loss of other choices of course.

I will be pissed if the first rounder, sans a trade-down, is Benjamin or Odell though.

[steelreserve]

I really don't follow all this talk about how not having a tall WR hurts you so much in the red zone. How often does it come down to out-jumping a guy by 3 inches in the end zone and catching it with the very tips of your fingers? That's good for maybe one touchdown a season, if that. You do not see Dwight Clark making The Catch very often, which is really the main scenario we're talking about as far as being tall goes.

Yeah, there are a ton of close plays in the end zone, but being tall doesn't have that much to do with it. Most of the balls that a 6'4" receiver would catch, a decent 5'11" receiver would also catch, because all those times that the throw just barely makes it in, it's usually about things like timing, selling a route or a formation, breaking at just the right moment, a perfectly thrown ball, good hands, barely getting both feet down in bounds, or the defender jumping a split-second too late ... in other words, scoring a TD because you're just a good receiver or the QB made a good throw. Being tall is way down the list.

Bottom line, I'd rather have a guy who's 5'10" with good hands and knows how to get open, than a guy who's 6'4" and otherwise just a normal WR.

[Steelerette]

I really don't follow all this talk about how not having a tall WR hurts you so much in the red zone. How often does it come down to out-jumping a guy by 3 inches in the end zone and catching it with the very tips of your fingers? That's good for maybe one touchdown a season, if that. You do not see Dwight Clark making The Catch very often, which is really the main scenario we're talking about as far as being tall goes.

Yeah, there are a ton of close plays in the end zone, but being tall doesn't have that much to do with it. Most of the balls that a 6'4" receiver would catch, a decent 5'11" receiver would also catch, because all those times that the throw just barely makes it in, it's usually about things like timing, selling a route or a formation, breaking at just the right moment, a perfectly thrown ball, good hands, barely getting both feet down in bounds, or the defender jumping a split-second too late ... in other words, scoring a TD because you're just a good receiver or the QB made a good throw. Being tall is way down the list.

Bottom line, I'd rather have a guy who's 5'10" with good hands and knows how to get open, than a guy who's 6'4" and otherwise just a normal WR.

My peripheral vision always thinks that your avatar is Eeyore, but then I look straight at it and it's an anime chick.

I don't really care either about having a "tall" wr. But, I guess I can see the team selecting Mike Evans. I just really hope it doesn't happen with Dennard still on the board.

In a week's time whatever question this thread is asking about the draft, will be answered one way or the other.

[Mojouw]

I think the calls for a tall WR are about having another type of weapon in the position grouping. Right now we have a bunch of outside shooting guards - to borrow a basketball analogy. I think when people say "tall" what they really mean is a type of WR that may trade some speed for raw physicality. So a down low power forward or center.

I don't know. Just being tall doesn't really mean a damn thing. Plenty of tall guys who are "meh' as "red-zone threats".

[Shoes]

I think the calls for a tall WR are about having another type of weapon in the position grouping. Right now we have a bunch of outside shooting guards - to borrow a basketball analogy. I think when people say "tall" what they really mean is a type of WR that may trade some speed for raw physicality. So a down low power forward or center.

I don't know. Just being tall doesn't really mean a damn thing. Plenty of tall guys who are "meh' as "red-zone threats".

I'd be delighted with another A. Brown type player early ( like Beckham JR ) and then Jeff Janis in a later round, between those two a good TE (CJ). You'd get your moneys worth out of these type of players, they can do more for your team than jump for a high ball in the red-zone…..imo.

[Mojouw]

I'd be delighted with another A. Brown type player early ( like Beckham JR ) and then Jeff Janis in a later round, between those two a good TE (CJ). You'd get your moneys worth out of these type of players, they can do more for your team than jump for a high ball in the red-zone…..imo.

I think that is great idea. Not sure where Beckham fits into the WR group, but according to all reports his talent is undeniable. Surprised you don't hear more talk about Janis. He seems to have held his own at some of the post-season games and his #'s are astounding.

All the reports I read on him are contradictory. He gets classed as a hard worker who maximizes his limited athletic talent. How can a guy who runs a sub 4.4 at 6'3" and 219 lbs with a 37.5 inch vertical be athletically limited? The only thing I can figure is that he seems to be knocked for his skittishness in traffic and small not quite reliable hands. So do they mean he is uncoordinated and kinda shy about contact?

The only other thing is that...and I really hate to say this...but his photos look white and his profile reads like a white WR profile, but his combine and other #'s look non-white. So maybe there is a Jason Sehorn, We Wleker thing going on here?

[Psycho Ward 86]

Wow. People are going way overboard on the size of the big, tall receivers and neglecting the skills that would palpably be demanded as well.

Obviously the preference for a big, tall receiver doesnt come with a resume covered in crap such as:

-lazy ball skills
-shit hands
-pop warner route running ability
-midget catch radius
-patty cake physicality

when i say "big, tall receiver," i mean a big tall receiver with the complete opposite of these characteristics. and im sure the other people on here are thinking the same. this is why i dont give a single fuck about guys like kelvin benjamin, brandon coleman, martavis bryant, and give plenty of fucks about guys like mike evans, jordan matthews, and cody latimer

[Mojouw]

Wow. People are going way overboard on the size of the big, tall receivers and neglecting the skills that would palpably be demanded as well.

Obviously the preference for a big, tall receiver doesnt come with a resume covered in crap such as:

-lazy ball skills
-shit hands
-pop warner route running ability
-midget catch radius
-patty cake physicality

when i say "big, tall receiver," i mean a big tall receiver with the complete opposite of these characteristics. and im sure the other people on here are thinking the same. this is why i dont give a single fuck about guys like kelvin benjamin, brandon coleman, martavis bryant, and give plenty of fucks about guys like mike evans, jordan matthews, and cody latimer

So a dominant WR who is a physical mismatch for most opposing DB's is what you are after?

I think that goes with out saying that any team could use one of those.

I think people are simply reacting against the need to draft height for the sake of height. Also is it necessary to devote scarce high round draft resources to a WR group that already has a clear-cut #1 in AB?

I don't know. I'm sure that some combination of AB, Wheaton, Moore, and Mike Evans would scare the crap out of most D coordinators around the league. But is that enough to off-set the "cost" of losing out on one of the top 3 corners?

[Psycho Ward 86]

12 of the top 15 TD reception leaders in the NFL last season were 6'3'' or taller, and 11 of the top 15 were 214lb or heavier.

12 of the top 15 receiving yard leaders in the NFL last season were also 6'3'' or taller, and 12 of the top 15 were 214lb or heavier. Only 2 were under 207lb. (desean jackson and our very own antonio brown)

id say its pretty obvious that size makes a difference. but not if you absolutely suck and have nothing to offer but size. Mike Williams and Charles Rogers are examples of that

(Stats via NFL.com)

[Psycho Ward 86]

So a dominant WR who is a physical mismatch for most opposing DB's is what you are after?

I think that goes with out saying that any team could use one of those.

I think people are simply reacting against the need to draft height for the sake of height. Also is it necessary to devote scarce high round draft resources to a WR group that already has a clear-cut #1 in AB?

I don't know. I'm sure that some combination of AB, Wheaton, Moore, and Mike Evans would scare the crap out of most D coordinators around the league. But is that enough to off-set the "cost" of losing out on one of the top 3 corners?

assuming a high round draft pick consists of rounds 1-3, then yes, at least one needs to be a pass catching weapon imo. when our top 3 receivers are midgets, plus miller who is only a decent red zone weapon, lining up an Adonis-sized receiver alongside them just completes the puzzle. absolutely necessary when your franchise QB could be nearing the end, and finally seems to have a good RB stable, O-line, and potentially top flight receiving corp (that is missing just that one piece).

ive flip flopped a little bit here and there, but if evans/watkins are gone by #15, ill take fuller or dennard everytime. If we dont get a receiver with that 1st pick though, i think we absolutely need to go receiver in round 2, where i think there will be a run on receivers (my target would be jordan matthews).

perhaps people have different perceptions on what a big, tall receiver is as well. for me, its going to 6'3'', 210lb or more. although if a receiver is smaller than that but plays with a massive catch radius then he might as well be a big receiver to me. i feel like jordan matthews plays like he's 6'4'' 220lb

[Mojouw]

assuming a high round draft pick consists of rounds 1-3, then yes, at least one needs to be a pass catching weapon imo. when our top 3 receivers are midgets, plus miller who is only a decent red zone weapon, lining up an Adonis-sized receiver alongside them just completes the puzzle. absolutely necessary when your franchise QB could be nearing the end, and finally seems to have a good RB stable, O-line, and potentially top flight receiving corp (that is missing just that one piece).

ive flip flopped a little bit here and there, but if evans/watkins are gone by #15, ill take fuller or dennard everytime. If we dont get a receiver with that 1st pick though, i think we absolutely need to go receiver in round 2, where i think there will be a run on receivers (my target would be jordan matthews).

perhaps people have different perceptions on what a big, tall receiver is as well. for me, its going to 6'3'', 210lb or more. although if a receiver is smaller than that but plays with a massive catch radius then he might as well be a big receiver to me. i feel like jordan matthews plays like he's 6'4'' 220lb

Ok. I can completely agree with that. I still say that Patterson should have been the pick over Jones last year. Evan or Watkins over one of the top corners, I could live with, but not Benjamin or Robinson.

[Psycho Ward 86]

Ok. I can completely agree with that. I still say that Patterson should have been the pick over Jones last year. Evan or Watkins over one of the top corners, I could live with, but not Benjamin or Robinson.

ditto. and its interesting to see how jarvis jones' career vs. patterson's is going to turn out. i could have sworn there were reports out there that if jarvis jones wasnt available at our pick, that patterson was going to be the pick

[Mojouw]

ditto. and its interesting to see how jarvis jones' career vs. patterson's is going to turn out. i could have sworn there were reports out there that if jarvis jones wasnt available at our pick, that patterson was going to be the pick

Yeah. it kind of seems like all the non-jones rumors were essentially the vikings draft (patterson and rhodes). While there is nothing wrong with Jones, I just don't feel that he will become "special". In contrast, Patterson looks like a man-beast out on the field and if he can keep up with the mental part of the game, then there may be little limit to what he can do. That is if the Vikes ever get a real QB on the roster.

[Steelerette]

I've changed my mind.

If Mike Evans is there when we pick, unless we can get a very sweet trade-down package... take him.

Not because he's tall. I have often thought I'd be okay with someone like Moncrief or Matthews in the second. Or someone like Abbrederis later. And I'm pretty sure I'd still be thrilled with that kind of pick. But because Mike Evans just dominates. He's a bigtime player who's always a threat and he can play downfield or play possession or give you a redzone threat, he can do it all except for be a straight-line blazer, and well don't we have Wheaton and DHB for that?

Yes I have been worried about our needs at CB and DL; and I have been having nightmares of Sweed and Troy Edwards. But Sweed had those questions about his hands coming out of school already. No such concerns about Mike Evans. Troy Edwards was a bit of a panic pick because David Boston got snapped up before their pick (damn, can you imagine), and in doing so they missed out on Kearse (again damn, can you imagine...). We might miss out on Evans but I'm confident we won't overreact and grab Brandon Cooks, not with so many other things we can do.

But if Evans is there, grab him. A cornerback isn't going to start for us this season anyways, that doesn't mean you don't take one, but McGill and Baptiste fit the prototype we should be looking for and will be just as good as the first round CBs after a year of development. Grab McGill or Baptiste. Same with DE, Ealy is tempting but we can get Tuitt, Easley, DaQuan, or DeAndre Coleman later, or maybe Jeff Pagan. All guys who could work out really nice for us and develop this season while Heyward and Beard are the starters. Plus we tend to alternate D and O first rounders, it's our offense year :P

Defense wins championships but so does Ben, we have a special QB, adding a bigtime WR to play across from Brown with Munchak heading the O-line and Bell running the ball, we might get to do something the next few years that we haven't seen the Steelers offense do in decades, that's absolutely terrorize opposing defenses. Not only that but we can see Ben's career ride into the sunset, and probably give his heir a real nice system to get his start in.

Plus here's some interesting numbers breakdowns on draft tendencies http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...endencies.html The better teams seem to be the ones that take linemen and wide receivers.

[stillers4me]

Defense wins championships but so does Ben, we have a special QB, adding a bigtime WR to play across from Brown with Munchak heading the O-line and Bell running the ball, we might get to do something the next few years that we haven't seen the Steelers offense do in decades, that's absolutely terrorize opposing defenses. Not only that but we can see Ben's career ride into the sunset, and probably give his heir a real nice system to get his start in.

Plus here's some interesting numbers breakdowns on draft tendencies http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...endencies.html The better teams seem to be the ones that take linemen and wide receivers.

I can live with this if the offense is so good that they can score enough points to stay ahead of all the points the defense will give up.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[HollywoodSteel]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a fan here who would be crying if Evans is there and we take him. From everything I've read about him he's an almost can't miss difference maker (as far as such a thing really exists in the draft). It seems as if the gap between him and Watkins isn't very big at all (and in the end there might not be a difference, but obviously we won't know that for a few years), and probably a much bigger gap between Evans and any other receiver coming out of the draft (even though this draft is pretty deep in that department).

The truth is, the Steelers will not be put to that decision anyway, so it's all just theoretical at this point. Unless something truly bizarre happens, or unless we move up, Evens won't be there when we pick. I'm guessing at least two corners will be gone as well (the only scenario I see throwing this for a loop is if there is a crazy run on QBs before our pick, but that will take some serious panicking on some teams' part to make that happen). If we have to choose between the third corner and the third receiver off the board, I'd sleep easier if we take the corner. Not that it's exactly an apples to apples comparison, but a 2nd round receiver in this draft will probably be of a higher caliber than a 2nd round corner. However, if we go corner in the 1st, and then some really great looking steal is there for us in the 2nd at some other position, and we pass on a receiver to get him… the discussion might get interesting around here, especially since we traded away our third round pick. Is this draft deep enough at the WR position to wait until the 4th round? I'll let our college football experts (like Dwins) contemplate that one.

[Hindes204]

Evans will be long gone, some experts even have him ahead of Watkins now....

[Psycho Ward 86]

nothing is for certain in any draft. someone, or someone(s) drop for no reason other than a team's preference. Take Rashard Mendenhall and David Decastro for example in recent years. They were supposed to be long gone as well. Just last year or two ago, Sharrif Floyd was mocked in the top 5 or just outside the top 5 in most drafts and he ended up at #23 for the vikings. honestly if evans gets past the bucs, he could easily end up available. if he gets past the bucs AND rams, he's going to be available at #15 barring a team trading up

[Jaucer]

I really don't want any receiver in the first two rounds no matter who is available. There are far more pressing needs on this team. Yes they don't have a lot of proven depth at the WR position but AB is solidified at the #1, Heath will be healthy day 1, and we have several promising 2nd year guys. Couple that with the fact that the Steelers have been very good at finding mid-round gems at WR the last several years. Maybe WR is the best position that the scouting department knows how to evaluate. Quite honestly I would like the Steelers to go back to a draft philosophy they seemed to have back when Noll came on board. Draft athletes with good game tape instead of drafting by need "bpa". Get they guys who can play even if you don't need them just yet. Build great depth, make smart trades because of it, and eventually the positions of need don't exist.

[HollywoodSteel]

nothing is for certain in any draft. someone, or someone(s) drop for no reason other than a team's preference. Take Rashard Mendenhall and David Decastro for example in recent years. They were supposed to be long gone as well. Just last year or two ago, Sharrif Floyd was mocked in the top 5 or just outside the top 5 in most drafts and he ended up at #23 for the vikings. honestly if evans gets past the bucs, he could easily end up available. if he gets past the bucs AND rams, he's going to be available at #15 barring a team trading up

You're absolutely right, and though I will be extremely surprised if Evans is there at 15, nothing that happens in the draft will make me fall out of my chair in shock. I think the big unknown is where the run on QBs happens. If teams start grabbing all the QBs early, then who knows? Even if the Texans take the obvious pick in Clowney at #1, St. Louis at #2 and Cleveland at #4 could set the pace if they decide to go QB. And absolutely nothing the Raiders do at #5 will shock me at this point. In my humble opinion none of those teams should take a QB that early given their needs and all the other talent that will be available there (especially not the Browns because a good QB good will most likely be there with their second first round pick, so if they pass on Watkins or Mack for a QB they are stupid and nut-less). But like you said, we've seen all kinds of unexpected things before. Can't see why this year will be any different in that regard.

- - - Updated - - -

I really don't want any receiver in the first two rounds no matter who is available. There are far more pressing needs on this team. Yes they don't have a lot of proven depth at the WR position but AB is solidified at the #1, Heath will be healthy day 1, and we have several promising 2nd year guys. Couple that with the fact that the Steelers have been very good at finding mid-round gems at WR the last several years. Maybe WR is the best position that the scouting department knows how to evaluate. Quite honestly I would like the Steelers to go back to a draft philosophy they seemed to have back when Noll came on board. Draft athletes with good game tape instead of drafting by need "bpa". Get they guys who can play even if you don't need them just yet. Build great depth, make smart trades because of it, and eventually the positions of need don't exist.

I think I agree with the gist of what you are saying, but aren't you possibly contradicting yourself a little? If Evans is somehow there at #15 and is the BPA (by your standards, meaning the best athlete with the best game tape) should we take him or not? Who would you pass him up to take?