Pouncey is going to be hella expensive to keep in Pittsburgh now.....

[Craic]

If we could keep Pouncey for $5M-$7M, I would be completely behind it. $7M for me is at the very top of what I would want to pay even the very best lineman, but he is one of the few that really is that good. For $10M ... well, like I said, even the best lineman in the world can't make $10M worth of difference.

Unfortunately (for us), with a guy in Pouncey's situation, $5M is almost laughable and $7M is at the very low end of "market value" ... the only way I would even see $7M happening is if the injury plays into it. As in, maybe he thinks playing out the one remaining season to get to UFA is too much of a risk, so he's willing to trade a little of the top-end money for security. I don't think any sense of "team loyalty" or "a chance to be in a winning environment" or "loving the city of Pittsburgh" is really going to do it; everything I've seen would indicate that he's going to be a complete mercenary.

I understand what you're saying here, and you make a lot of sense, but I also can't get the years between Hartings and Pouncey out of my head. With our purge of the big contracts on defense, not to mention that we'll lose Troy's contract in a year or two, I wouldn't be surprised if they go a bit higher than you're suggesting. However, I also would expect a decent portion of that contract to be based on incentives and elevators for Pouncey staying healthy. Because on the other hand, you also hit the nail on the head when you mentioned earlier about him and injuries.

[steelreserve]

I understand what you're saying here, and you make a lot of sense, but I also can't get the years between Hartings and Pouncey out of my head. With our purge of the big contracts on defense, not to mention that we'll lose Troy's contract in a year or two, I wouldn't be surprised if they go a bit higher than you're suggesting. However, I also would expect a decent portion of that contract to be based on incentives and elevators for Pouncey staying healthy. Because on the other hand, you also hit the nail on the head when you mentioned earlier about him and injuries.

I want to keep the guy, but I don't think trading dollars for dollars straight up with expiring contracts is the answer. The big contracts on defense were killing us, and we'd basically be exchanging that problem for the same one with a different guy.

What we might be able to do for Pouncey is work out a contract that starts out at $7M and steps up a little bit, because the gradual increase of the cap will, for once, actually ease the later years. Something like 7-7-8-8-10, for 5 years and $40M, which would be right in the neighborhood of the top centers, and if we gave a lot of guaranteed money, might be an attractive offer if the injury thing is a concern on the player's part. Keeping the salary flat and realistic, not a huge backload, would make it something that we could actually pay out to the end, and skip the last year to save half of it if we had to.

Or, we could go something like 7-7-8-12-13, for a "5-year, $47M" contract with less guaranteed money, but what it really means is a 3-year, $22M contract and then see where the chips fall. That is the stupid way to do it for the player because there's no way in hell he'll ever see the last two years at full salary - but it seems the more realistic because it not only takes care of the injury/security worries, but also strokes the ego for being "highest paid." It also leaves us an out in that we can drop the last two years for a minimal dead money penalty, and leaves the player a perceived out because "if they cut me, I can just go get another blockbuster contract" -- never mind how often THAT goes awry; his agent will talk him into it.

Either of those would be pretty palatable to me; hell, after the Woodley money shows up June 1, we could fit it in comfortably this season without screwing up our cap, and no big future worries either. The one thing that would kill us is something dumb like 2-3-7-13-15 with a huge signing bonus so that we have a "cap-friendly contract," but actually it's just an irresponsible kick-the-can-down-the-road contract and after three years we face another Woodley situation. If we do a deal like that, it shows Khan hasn't learned his lesson and it's amateur hour.

Anyway, if we can get this worked out, I would say the next priority this season for the offensive line is figuring out which of Gilbert and Adams is worth keeping as the RT and backup LT; ride the Beachum and DeCastro rookie deals, and hope that a mid-round pick turns into the long-term solution at LG because Foster is looking like a stopgap. DeCastro we're solid on for three more seasons at reasonable pay, since we have the fifth-year option on him as a first-round pick. Beachum is an interesting case - we probably can't extend him at "market value" now, even though it'd be the cheapest; if we do it after this season, we can get him for a medium-value contract for a lineman, but we'd be taking a risk; if he's worth keeping but we wait until his deal expires, we either pay through the nose or lose him. Hopefully he has another decent but not stellar year, and we extend him at season's end for something like $4M escalating to $6M, which is exactly what you need to do for the line.

[Dwinsgames]

if we are not going to trade him and going to pay him , move him to guard where he has to earn his keep more and solidifies that LG spot at a higher level than Foster has been able to do as of late

[Mojouw]

I think that a responsible extension for Pouncey at center, DeCastro solidifying one of the guard spots, Munchak fixing Gilbert and Adams as the tackles and Beachum becoming the new starting other guard would be the "dream" scenario. I suspect that the nature of the picks made in the draft will let us all know if Munchak and others think that can happen.

I doubt either Gilbert and Adams can be salvaged, let alone both. Can't typically fix slow and stupid.

[steelreserve]

if we are not going to trade him and going to pay him , move him to guard where he has to earn his keep more and solidifies that LG spot at a higher level than Foster has been able to do as of late

That would be great, but then who plays center?

[Psycho Ward 86]

if we are not going to trade him and going to pay him , move him to guard where he has to earn his keep more and solidifies that LG spot at a higher level than Foster has been able to do as of late

that would be such a minor improvement at guard. Foster is doing a good job. besides, if we did that, it would be a significant drop off at center and nullify the move. if we keep Pouncey we need to keep him where he's best.

If we need some anal fisting action on the field to piss off so-and-so, then we'll throw wallace back in there

[Dwinsgames]

that would be such a minor improvement at guard. Foster is doing a good job. besides, if we did that, it would be a significant drop off at center and nullify the move. if we keep Pouncey we need to keep him where he's best.

If we need some anal fisting action on the field to piss off so-and-so, then we'll throw wallace back in there

assuming we would not then draft a guy to play C and continue to work Wallace as a backup ...

but I get it why not just draft a guard ...

I like Foster do not get me wrong but I like him as a RG he plays way better on the right side than on the left , he is to slow for a ZBS starting guard and with Munch in as line coach I suspect we will give that scheme another go as he likes it ....

another option is a LT and move Beachum to LG where I think ( and said it back in December here someplace ) he could be an all pro LG with his skill set IMO and someone just brought it up again recently here ...

I do not think Adams is the future at LT and I know Gilbert isnt but I do hold out Hope Adams can over take Gilbert at RT ...time will tell being a year removed from stabbing wounds should make him less tentative and that is my excuse for him last year right or wrong ....

[Psycho Ward 86]

assuming we would not then draft a guy to play C and continue to work Wallace as a backup ...

but I get it why not just draft a guard ...

I like Foster do not get me wrong but I like him as a RG he plays way better on the right side than on the left , he is to slow for a ZBS starting guard and with Munch in as line coach I suspect we will give that scheme another go as he likes it ....

another option is a LT and move Beachum to LG where I think ( and said it back in December here someplace ) he could be an all pro LG with his skill set IMO and someone just brought it up again recently here ...

I do not think Adams is the future at LT and I know Gilbert isnt but I do hold out Hope Adams can over take Gilbert at RT ...time will tell being a year removed from stabbing wounds should make him less tentative and that is my excuse for him last year right or wrong ....

again, any perceived improvements are nullified by downgrades at other spots. Move foster to RG, then you are moving Decastro out of his natural spot that he has been playing all through college and his NFL career. The coaching staff was so insistent on making him comfortable that they kept him there. He is already playing at a probowl level at right guard. dont fuck with that, just let it happen. No reason to get overzealous about tapping every last bit of efficiency out of the linemen with position shifts when we have the best O-line coach in the business.

[Dwinsgames]

again, any perceived improvements are nullified by downgrades at other spots. Move foster to RG, then you are moving Decastro out of his natural spot that he has been playing all through college and his NFL career. The coaching staff was so insistent on making him comfortable that they kept him there. He is already playing at a probowl level at right guard. dont fuck with that, just let it happen. No reason to get overzealous about tapping every last bit of efficiency out of the linemen with position shifts when we have the best O-line coach in the business.

never suggested moving Decastro ...

just upgrading Foster ...

I would be fine with a slightly better than average or even average Center , if both my Guards where top of the mark ....

its all about the money and proficiency for me ... I do not want to pay a Center the kind of coin it is going to take to keep Pouncey he will be wanting twice what I would be willing to pay for the pos.

that being said for me , if he stays at a higher dollar than 5 mill or so a year then he has to play Guard ( and I think he would be very good at it in a ZBS )

its not about who is right and who is wrong , its just opinions on what the position is worth and to me much over 5 mill is over paying for the pos ...

so again no hard feelings if they trade him away , draft a talented LG with one of the picks we could probably get for him and use the other pick on a Center ...

or draft a LT and put Beachum at LG move Adams to RT and Gilbert becomes first man of the bench as a backup swing tackle and draft a Center in the second round for one of the picks we could get for Pouncey and use the later pick to supplement elsewhere

[Psycho Ward 86]

never suggested moving Decastro ...

just upgrading Foster ...

I would be fine with a slightly better than average or even average Center , if both my Guards where top of the mark ....

its all about the money and proficiency for me ... I do not want to pay a Center the kind of coin it is going to take to keep Pouncey he will be wanting twice what I would be willing to pay for the pos.

that being said for me , if he stays at a higher dollar than 5 mill or so a year then he has to play Guard ( and I think he would be very good at it in a ZBS )

its not about who is right and who is wrong , its just opinions on what the position is worth and to me much over 5 mill is over paying for the pos ...

so again no hard feelings if they trade him away , draft a talented LG with one of the picks we could probably get for him and use the other pick on a Center ...

or draft a LT and put Beachum at LG move Adams to RT and Gilbert becomes first man of the bench as a backup swing tackle and draft a Center in the second round for one of the picks we could get for Pouncey and use the later pick to supplement elsewhere

You suggested upgrading Foster, and said you like him as a right guard. Decastro is very involved in that even if you dont mention him by name. Basically if Pouncey stays, moving anyone in the interior of our line will result in minimal to no improvement in one spot, and significant downgrading in another. For 42 of the past 50 seasons, our center has been manned by Ray Mansfield, Mike Webster, Dermontti Dawson, Jeff Hartings, and Maurkice Pouncey. History says keeping that kind of talent put is a good idea.

i guess it is a matter of opinion on what you value more, but im still trying to get the bad taste of sean mahan and justin hartwig out of my mouth so maybe thats why

[86WARD]

if we are not going to trade him and going to pay him , move him to guard where he has to earn his keep more and solidifies that LG spot at a higher level than Foster has been able to do as of late

100% in support of moving Pouncey to guard!!

[Dwinsgames]

i guess it is a matter of opinion on what you value more, but im still trying to get the bad taste of sean mahan and justin hartwig out of my mouth so maybe thats why

I can appreciate that but fact is one of two things is going to happen next off season ...

1) we will over pay Pouncey

2) Pouncey will be gone Via free agency and we will get a 3rd round comp pick in the 2016 draft for him ..

can't afford to do 1)

can't replace him with 2) and even if you could it would be a year after the fact when you get the comp selection ...


so for me it makes better sense to trade him now and get 2-3 times as much for him as we would by renting him 1 more year and getting a comp pick a year after he is gone .....

[86WARD]

I can appreciate that but fact is one of two things is going to happen next off season ...

1) we will over pay Pouncey

2) Pouncey will be gone Via free agency and we will get a 3rd round comp pick in the 2016 draft for him ..

can't afford to do 1)

can't replace him with 2) and even if you could it would be a year after the fact when you get the comp selection ...


so for me it makes better sense to trade him now and get 2-3 times as much for him as we would by renting him 1 more year and getting a comp pick a year after he is gone .....

* see Emmanuel Sanders. But on a larger scale.

[Psycho Ward 86]

I can appreciate that but fact is one of two things is going to happen next off season ...

1) we will over pay Pouncey

2) Pouncey will be gone Via free agency and we will get a 3rd round comp pick in the 2016 draft for him ..

can't afford to do 1)

can't replace him with 2) and even if you could it would be a year after the fact when you get the comp selection ...


so for me it makes better sense to trade him now and get 2-3 times as much for him as we would by renting him 1 more year and getting a comp pick a year after he is gone .....

again, im in support of trading pouncey. we were just discussing scenarios in case he isnt traded. overpaying for a player in the professional sports world isnt that big of a deal. No team in the NFL gets away with keeping all of their good players at market price or below market price. It will always take a little extra to keep one or some of them around

[zulater]

I'm in support of keeping Pouncey and building a resurgent young line around him and DeCastro.


Bottom line is I don't get any indication the Steelers plan on doing anything with Pouncey other than plugging him in at center for as many games as he's healthy for. And I personally don't see that as a bad thing. So rather than obsess on what they could or should do I'm looking forward to see what Pouncey does flanked by a competent guard on either side for just about the first time in his career.

The geniuses over at Profootball focus try to make out that Pouncey's play was middle of the pack in 2012. Overall it was, but that had more to do with the instability of the guard play around him. There was about a 5 game window in mid season when Colon had finally settled into place and Foster was playing competent enough where Pouncey was indeed the best center in football in 2012. Back to back 100 yard games by mutts like Dwyer and Redman tell the story there.

But then Colon's season got ended by injury, and Foster got shifted to the other side of the line ( where he clearly was unsettled at the time), then they even tried Pouncey at guard for a game etc... and the interior line went from being a huge plus to utter chaos.

So getting back to the present, I can't wait to see what Pouncey does with a full season ( hopefully- fingers crossed) with DeCastro and Foster settled in as good competent line mates. This could prove to be a very special year for the line. I intend on enjoying it.