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Thread: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promotion

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    nice post.
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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    I don't quit until I run out of beer.


    If they're not getting subsidies, then how will they pay for health care? Especially after they quit their jobs.


    What's wrong with working to pay for health care? There's no such thing as free health care ... somebody has to work to pay for it. Why is it OK for the government to tell people it's acceptable to quit working because other people will work and pay for their health care? If you feel so strongly about your view, I'm willing to reduce my hours at work so I can spend more time with my kids if you're willing to pay my mortgage. Fair enough?


    Of course there are people who get assistance but really don't want to, but there are far too many people who see nothing wrong with living off the assistance. I would think that is something we can agree on. The problem we're discussing is the message being sent by the government. Assistance (of all kinds) is available to people in need, and it's good that people (who truly need it) are aware of what's available to them to help them get on their feet. But what the government is doing now is not just making people aware of assistance; it's dangling free stuff in front of them and encouraging them to take it. Even people who technically don't need it are going to take it. The government should be encouraging people to work hard to better their lives, not quit their jobs and let other people work to take care of them.


    I'll need you to quote me where I said no single mother should receive assistance.


    This is a common misconception. The economy isn't a zero-sum game. If someone takes most of the pie, you can make more pie.


    I actually agree with you that it's our system that puts people on government assistance. Where we'll disagree though is on what we mean by "system."


    No, I don't believe that at all, and I've never suggested that government assistance should be taken away. But it should be a last resort, not an entitlement. It should be a safety net, not a hammock. And it should be discouraged, not encouraged. The goal should be to get more people OFF assistance, not ON it.

    If you continue to give people free stuff, it doesn't give them an incentive to want to work for it. Most people would rather not work. Ask people what's the first thing they'd do if they win the lottery, and the most popular response is going to be "Quit my job!" The government should be encouraging people to work, not giving them reasons not to.
    Again you totally ignored my explanation of how a person can quit their job if they working just for the healthcare, Ill explain it in detail.Lets say a man and a woman get together and marry now she has health insurance through her employer and he does not, so he jumps on her coverage. Now a year later they have a baby and she wants to stay home with the baby, she now has that option because they can get a comparable plan through the exchange. Or maybe the have a pre existing condition and had to work the other job just to pay for the ridiculous prices for the plans that cover pre existing conditions but now they dont have to because its covered through the exchange. There are so many scenarios, But that's not even the issue here is you like everyone on this site seem to believe its people who choose not to work whos draining the economy and using the tax dollars, but in fact entitlement programs are a drop in the bucket and are mostly used for the elderly and severely disabled. So spare me the ridiculous rhetoric of how your supporting all these lazy moochers, its really tired.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Wallace's quote:
    "This is a common misconception. The economy isn't a zero-sum game. If someone takes most of the pie, you can make more pie."

    Really? If the wealthy control most of the money, the rest of us can just make more money? where does this magic money come from? And even if the economy found a way to generate more money the system is set up for it to flow right to the top and that's the problem. All making more pie in our system does is give the person taking too much pie more pie.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Wallace's quote:
    "This is a common misconception. The economy isn't a zero-sum game. If someone takes most of the pie, you can make more pie."

    Really? If the wealthy control most of the money, the rest of us can just make more money? where does this magic money come from? And even if the economy found a way to generate more money the system is set up for it to flow right to the top and that's the problem. All making more pie in our system does is give the person taking too much pie more pie.
    The stupidity never seizes to amaze me.

    Magic money comes from your favorite press at the federal reserve.

    It's only free when your neighbor pays for it.


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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Wallace's quote:
    "This is a common misconception. The economy isn't a zero-sum game. If someone takes most of the pie, you can make more pie."

    Really? If the wealthy control most of the money, the rest of us can just make more money?

    where does this magic money come from?

    And even if the economy found a way to generate more money the system is set up for it to flow right to the top and that's the problem. All making more pie in our system does is give the person taking too much pie more pie.
    Increasing the total amounts of goods and services produced.

    This requires education, hard work, innovating and risk taking.

    This is what made America the most prosperous country in history.

    If everyone had your mind set horses and wagons would still be the main mode of transportation and candles our primary source of lighting.

    LOL
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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by GBMelBlount View Post
    Increasing the total amounts of goods and services produced.

    This requires education, hard work, innovating and risk taking.

    This is what made America the most prosperous country in history.

    If everyone had your mind set horses and wagons would still be the main mode of transportation and candles our primary source of lighting.

    LOL
    Really just make more goods? Whos going to buy these additional goods? Whos going to pay for these additional services? Where are theses additional jobs and wages coming from? I wish it was that simple but unless we are going to start opening sweat shops here in the US its not going to happen. It has nothing to do with being smart or working hard, its a market based system and the dollars do not move efficiently through the system because the bulk is at the top and their money is mostly spent on assets rather than consumer goods. Businesses wont manufacture here because they don't want to pay American workers or be regulated, so they will continue to import goods. What Wallace was saying is that if the top earners in this country control most of the wealth then we just make more wealth which sounds nice but how and please if you guys know the American people are waiting? Since the top earners own most of the wealth that means they control the means to creating the wealth, so I will go out on a limb and say that even if they had a formula for creating more wealth it would still be going into their pockets.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Really just make more goods? Whos going to buy these additional goods? Whos going to pay for these additional services? Where are theses additional jobs and wages coming from? I wish it was that simple but unless we are going to start opening sweat shops here in the US its not going to happen.
    Go read about the industrial revolution and get back to us.

    Read up on Henry Ford.

    Please remember the world was not always as it is today. There is a history and human kind has progressed by leaps and bounds, especially in the last 100 years.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Steeler View Post
    Go read about the industrial revolution and get back to us.

    Read up on Henry Ford.

    Please remember the world was not always as it is today. There is a history and human kind has progressed by leaps and bounds, especially in the last 100 years.
    The industrial revolution are you serious, I know you live in Canada but you cant honestly believe that the united states is still in an industrial revolution? We Don't manufacture any here anymore everything we get is outsourced!

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    The industrial revolution are you serious, I know you live in Canada but you cant honestly believe that the united states is still in an industrial revolution? We Don't manufacture any here anymore everything we get is outsourced!
    Yup, that was exactly my point.

    You have just proven you have zero reading comprehension and zero relational ability.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Again you totally ignored my explanation of how a person can quit their job if they working just for the healthcare, Ill explain it in detail.Lets say a man and a woman get together and marry now she has health insurance through her employer and he does not, so he jumps on her coverage. Now a year later they have a baby and she wants to stay home with the baby, she now has that option because they can get a comparable plan through the exchange. Or maybe the have a pre existing condition and had to work the other job just to pay for the ridiculous prices for the plans that cover pre existing conditions but now they dont have to because its covered through the exchange. There are so many scenarios, But that's not even the issue here is you like everyone on this site seem to believe its people who choose not to work whos draining the economy and using the tax dollars, but in fact entitlement programs are a drop in the bucket and are mostly used for the elderly and severely disabled. So spare me the ridiculous rhetoric of how your supporting all these lazy moochers, its really tired.
    Come take a stroll through Ft Myers, North Fort Myers, Miami, ect and I'll show you a ton of people that are happy doing to the minimum to get the minimum. Your 9/10th theory will be blown to shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Wallace's quote:
    "This is a common misconception. The economy isn't a zero-sum game. If someone takes most of the pie, you can make more pie."

    Really? If the wealthy control most of the money, the rest of us can just make more money? where does this magic money come from? And even if the economy found a way to generate more money the system is set up for it to flow right to the top and that's the problem. All making more pie in our system does is give the person taking too much pie more pie.
    It sounds like Russia is more your cup of tea than the USA. Honestly ST, it might be time for you to STFU for a little while and go sit in the corner, the only thing tired around here is your posts.

    I personally know self made millionaires who started with nothing. One of them started as a realtor selling little shit box houses, worked his way up to selling nicer houses, and eventually worked his way developing real estate and high end homes. He started with nothing, worked hard, made sacrifices and now enjoys the fruits of his labor. Somehow he got a bigger piece of the pie.

    Another multimillionaire I know started out with an old POS well drilling truck drilling residential wells, and through sacrifice and hard work bought a second POS well drilling truck. Later he got educated on injection and commercial well drilling and worked towards that goal. Then educated himself on mining rock, took his well drilling money, and rolled the dice and took a risk on buying a little rock quarry. (All these companies providing hundreds of local jobs and careers BTW)

    I grew up broke. When I was in Highschool I had 4 shirts from middle school to my name and 3 pairs of blue jeans, none of which fit very well. After my parents divorced my dad came to me and said ''Son, as you know we don't have any money. Eveything goes towards rent, utilities, and living expenses. We can go on living like this and spin our wheels for the next 20 years and never get ahead or we can cut our living expenses down. Save a little money and start a business but that means we will have to sacrifice living in a house and live in a trailer and work our asses off for a while which we can do but I need to know you're on board." I said hell yes, let's get out of this fucking hole. I was tired of it.

    So we sold all of our furniture and everything we had bought a 29' x 8' one bedroom travel trailer. He got the bedroom of course, and my 'room' was the couch. It was a hell of an adjustment but our living expenses went down dramatically. We used that money to buy tools for concrete and a beat up old truck. Worked our asses off from sun up until sun down pouring concrete. We each made $250/week. I'll never forget seeing $12,000 on my tax returns. It was just enough to pay our bills and put some money back into the business. We used that money to buy another truck and more concrete tools so we could do single family homes.

    After a few years living in the trailer and enjoying the benefit of low living expenses, we built a little two bedroom house small enough we could pay for it as we built it. A few years our house was built and we kept putting our money saved into the business. Then we were able do multifamily condos, two story buildings, as well as regular the regular house slabs. (all things we had to get out of our comfort zone and learn BTW)

    My dad and I still paid ourselves peanuts but we took the money, the risk, and bought an old concrete batch plant and two old beater concrete trucks. Never been in this business before and knew it wouldn't be easy but we also knew we could get through whatever it was. We kept investing into the business until we grew it to 15 trucks. Now the business is established we are living better then we ever have before. We're not wealthy but the future looks good finally because we wanted more and we made it happen.

    On a side note, during the recession it looked like we were going to go out of business and lose everything. I had to figure out something to survive. I read a $20 book on investing in mobile homes. While I was reading I was looking on the computer for mobile homes for sale. I only had a few thousand dollars saved up but I was confident I could find something. I ended up finding a Mobile home for sale and worked a deal with the owner for $3k down and owner financed the rest. It took all of my savings to do the deal but I rented it out and recouped enough of my money back in 3 months that I was able to buy another one, flipped it, bought another one, flipped it, and so on. I took $3,000 and turned it into a profitable business in 6 months flipping a mobile home every 1-2 weeks.

    So don't tell me that everyone is stuck with the sliver of pie we're given. If you're hungry and want more, go to the fuckin' table and get more. Don't wait for someone to bring it to you because it will never find it's way to you.

    STOP making excuses for America. This is a country of equal opportunity, not outcome.
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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by smokin3000gt View Post
    Come take a stroll through Ft Myers, North Fort Myers, Miami, ect and I'll show you a ton of people that are happy doing to the minimum to get the minimum. Your 9/10th theory will be blown to shit.



    It sounds like Russia is more your cup of tea than the USA. Honestly ST, it might be time for you to STFU for a little while and go sit in the corner, the only thing tired around here is your posts.

    I personally know self made millionaires who started with nothing. One of them started as a realtor selling little shit box houses, worked his way up to selling nicer houses, and eventually worked his way developing real estate and high end homes. He started with nothing, worked hard, made sacrifices and now enjoys the fruits of his labor. Somehow he got a bigger piece of the pie.

    Another multimillionaire I know started out with an old POS well drilling truck drilling residential wells, and through sacrifice and hard work bought a second POS well drilling truck. Later he got educated on injection and commercial well drilling and worked towards that goal. Then educated himself on mining rock, took his well drilling money, and rolled the dice and took a risk on buying a little rock quarry. (All these companies providing hundreds of local jobs and careers BTW)

    I grew up broke. When I was in Highschool I had 4 shirts from middle school to my name and 3 pairs of blue jeans, none of which fit very well. After my parents divorced my dad came to me and said ''Son, as you know we don't have any money. Eveything goes towards rent, utilities, and living expenses. We can go on living like this and spin our wheels for the next 20 years and never get ahead or we can cut our living expenses down. Save a little money and start a business but that means we will have to sacrifice living in a house and live in a trailer and work our asses off for a while which we can do but I need to know you're on board." I said hell yes, let's get out of this fucking hole. I was tired of it.

    So we sold all of our furniture and everything we had bought a 29' x 8' one bedroom travel trailer. He got the bedroom of course, and my 'room' was the couch. It was a hell of an adjustment but our living expenses went down dramatically. We used that money to buy tools for concrete and a beat up old truck. Worked our asses off from sun up until sun down pouring concrete. We each made $250/week. I'll never forget seeing $12,000 on my tax returns. It was just enough to pay our bills and put some money back into the business. We used that money to buy another truck and more concrete tools so we could do single family homes.

    After a few years living in the trailer and enjoying the benefit of low living expenses, we built a little two bedroom house small enough we could pay for it as we built it. A few years our house was built and we kept putting our money saved into the business. Then we were able do multifamily condos, two story buildings, as well as regular the regular house slabs. (all things we had to get out of our comfort zone and learn BTW)

    My dad and I still paid ourselves peanuts but we took the money, the risk, and bought an old concrete batch plant and two old beater concrete trucks. Never been in this business before and knew it wouldn't be easy but we also knew we could get through whatever it was. We kept investing into the business until we grew it to 15 trucks. Now the business is established we are living better then we ever have before. We're not wealthy but the future looks good finally because we wanted more and we made it happen.

    On a side note, during the recession it looked like we were going to go out of business and lose everything. I had to figure out something to survive. I read a $20 book on investing in mobile homes. While I was reading I was looking on the computer for mobile homes for sale. I only had a few thousand dollars saved up but I was confident I could find something. I ended up finding a Mobile home for sale and worked a deal with the owner for $3k down and owner financed the rest. It took all of my savings to do the deal but I rented it out and recouped enough of my money back in 3 months that I was able to buy another one, flipped it, bought another one, flipped it, and so on. I took $3,000 and turned it into a profitable business in 6 months flipping a mobile home every 1-2 weeks.

    So don't tell me that everyone is stuck with the sliver of pie we're given. If you're hungry and want more, go to the fuckin' table and get more. Don't wait for someone to bring it to you because it will never find it's way to you.

    STOP making excuses for America. This is a country of equal opportunity, not outcome.
    Oh we are all going to be self made millionaires I get it now they 80% is just not as hardworking or smart as the top 20% you people are so ridiculous. starting a business is not what im talking about we all cant be business owners, the point is you cant just create INDUSTRY and MANUFACTURING in the US, the money in this country controls those things. So you know a self made millionaire what in the hell does that have to do with creating efficient wealth for the economy. You people don't even understand your own arguments, its not about a person making it here and there its whether or not the system as whole is beneficial for everyone especially in the long run. America is not a land of equal opportunity although im sure you have that on your bumper sticker, everyone in this country is simply not afforded the same opportunities as each other. Who's making excuses Im simply telling you whats wrong with our economic system but you cant comprehend it.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Its really not that hard to fathom, if your a person working a full time job with children at home and your making like 11-12 dollars an hour just basically working for healthcare for you and your children, you may choose to work less and spend more time raising your children now that obamacare subsidizes more of your health cost. This is an effect on low wage workers who are right on the edge and it a choice by the worker to work less, its not the employer cutting hours.
    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Did anyone even read the topic of the thread!!!???? The whole point of this article is to try and make fun of democrats for their defense against obamacare killing jobs. My quote is aimed directly at that. The explanation is completely logical, obamacare is not killing the jobs people will elect to work less, the jobs themselves are still there. All this crap you guys are posting is ridiculous, its not a stretch that a mother in that situation could leave that situation if she is working just for healthcare, maybe her husband works but doesn't get healthcare through his job or maybe where she worked had a better plan, but now through the exchange she can get a similar plan coverage wise for a similar price without having to go through an employer. Not everyone is trying to mooch off you, people just have different situations and now they some different options. This one is directed at Wallace108, I do not receive any government assistance so you can save your lecture on hard work for somebody else. Also a mothers job is to do whatever is best for family by any means and if that means spending more time at home to benefit her children then she should do that. If her children need her at home and she can take a government subsidy to make sure they get what they need I don't know a mother who wouldn't do that. Trust me the people who need help in this country far outweigh the number of people who work the system.
    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    They could but, but does that mean obamacare killed that job? The job is still there is it not? Just the person who was doing it left.
    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Yes its also clear that anyone raised by a mother who used a government healthcare subsidies is doomed to be failure in life.
    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Why maybe the option for a subsidy provides a better option for her and her family it may have nothing to do with being lazy, as a mother it is her job to care for her family the best she can by any means.
    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    not everyone leaving there job will get subsidies and its not a disincentive to work its only a disincentive if your are working just to pay for healthcare. Its not a matter of it being embarrassing nobody wants to be on assistance but the fact of the matter is some people need it. you seem to think because you know a single mother not on assistance no single mother should be on assistance but everyones situation is different. Not every person has the same opportunities the same smarts the same breaks and the same hardships, you have about 80% of the population fighting for about 15% of the nations wealth its ridiculous to assume everyone on government assistance is just lazy or a moocher. Our system is what puts these people on government assistance there is simply not enough money, jobs, or opportunities for everyone to be able to afford the medical care in this country. You think if we took away the government assistance people would just magically find a good paying job? Also yes I read the responses and I realize nobody is talking about obamacare killing jobs which was the point I was making since "obamacare killing jobs" is in the title of this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    What? dividing up 15%of the wealth among 80% of the population is why you have people on government assistance there simply is not enough to go around
    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Again you totally ignored my explanation of how a person can quit their job if they working just for the healthcare, Ill explain it in detail.Lets say a man and a woman get together and marry now she has health insurance through her employer and he does not, so he jumps on her coverage. Now a year later they have a baby and she wants to stay home with the baby, she now has that option because they can get a comparable plan through the exchange. Or maybe the have a pre existing condition and had to work the other job just to pay for the ridiculous prices for the plans that cover pre existing conditions but now they dont have to because its covered through the exchange. There are so many scenarios, But that's not even the issue here is you like everyone on this site seem to believe its people who choose not to work whos draining the economy and using the tax dollars, but in fact entitlement programs are a drop in the bucket and are mostly used for the elderly and severely disabled. So spare me the ridiculous rhetoric of how your supporting all these lazy moochers, its really tired.
    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Wallace's quote:
    "This is a common misconception. The economy isn't a zero-sum game. If someone takes most of the pie, you can make more pie."

    Really? If the wealthy control most of the money, the rest of us can just make more money? where does this magic money come from? And even if the economy found a way to generate more money the system is set up for it to flow right to the top and that's the problem. All making more pie in our system does is give the person taking too much pie more pie.
    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Really just make more goods? Whos going to buy these additional goods? Whos going to pay for these additional services? Where are theses additional jobs and wages coming from? I wish it was that simple but unless we are going to start opening sweat shops here in the US its not going to happen. It has nothing to do with being smart or working hard, its a market based system and the dollars do not move efficiently through the system because the bulk is at the top and their money is mostly spent on assets rather than consumer goods. Businesses wont manufacture here because they don't want to pay American workers or be regulated, so they will continue to import goods. What Wallace was saying is that if the top earners in this country control most of the wealth then we just make more wealth which sounds nice but how and please if you guys know the American people are waiting? Since the top earners own most of the wealth that means they control the means to creating the wealth, so I will go out on a limb and say that even if they had a formula for creating more wealth it would still be going into their pockets.
    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    The industrial revolution are you serious, I know you live in Canada but you cant honestly believe that the united states is still in an industrial revolution? We Don't manufacture any here anymore everything we get is outsourced!
    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Oh we are all going to be self made millionaires I get it now they 80% is just not as hardworking or smart as the top 20% you people are so ridiculous. starting a business is not what im talking about we all cant be business owners, the point is you cant just create INDUSTRY and MANUFACTURING in the US, the money in this country controls those things. So you know a self made millionaire what in the hell does that have to do with creating efficient wealth for the economy. You people don't even understand your own arguments, its not about a person making it here and there its whether or not the system as whole is beneficial for everyone especially in the long run. America is not a land of equal opportunity although im sure you have that on your bumper sticker, everyone in this country is simply not afforded the same opportunities as each other. Who's making excuses Im simply telling you whats wrong with our economic system but you cant comprehend it.
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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Really? If the wealthy control most of the money, the rest of us can just make more money? where does this magic money come from?
    According to Nancy Pelosi and other Democrats, the magic money comes from Obamacare and quitting your job:

    "And just think, that you could be a photographer or writer, start your own business, be self-employed, as well as change jobs or start a business and not have to be constrained by whether you had affordable and accessible quality health care. That’s what this legislation does. We see it as an entrepreneurial bill."
    --Nancy Pelosi



    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    And even if the economy found a way to generate more money the system is set up for it to flow right to the top and that's the problem. All making more pie in our system does is give the person taking too much pie more pie.
    And why do you think that is? Unless they're born into it or win the lottery, people don't become wealthy by accident. Money doesn't "flow" to the top as if the system was designed for that to happen. The reason wealthy people keep getting more money is because they know how to make money. For our purposes, I'm defining wealthy as anyone who is successful and lives comfortably, not just the so-called 1 percent. And, of course, I'm talking about people who earn their money legally. On the flip side, the reason most poor people stay poor is because they don't know how to make money.

    And here's why it comes down to personal responsibility and not the "system.":
    The only thing America guarantees a person is equal opportunity. America does not guarantee equal outcomes.

    That's why you can have two biological brothers born poor in the inner city and living in the same environment. One studies hard at school, stays out of trouble, and ends up going to college and getting a good job. The other joins a gang, gets mixed up with drugs, ends up in jail for a few years, wants to change his life but struggles because "no one will give him a chance."
    Equal opportunity, different outcomes.
    The one brother is thankful for the opportunity America has provided him. The other blames the system for holding him down.

    That is what has always made America exceptional ... the opportunity to improve your life (or destroy it). Just because you were born wealthy doesn't mean you will stay wealthy. And just because you were born poor doesn't mean you have to stay poor. No matter where you start at in life, our country gives you an opportunity to be successful. It's up to you to seize that opportunity. If you do, it's not because of the system ... it's because of you. And if you don't, it's not because of the system ... it's because of you.

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Again you totally ignored my explanation of how a person can quit their job if they working just for the healthcare
    And you've ignored a lot of my points, including when I asked you to provide the quote when you accused me of saying that no single mother should receive assistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Lets say a man and a woman get together and marry now she has health insurance through her employer and he does not, so he jumps on her coverage. Now a year later they have a baby and she wants to stay home with the baby, she now has that option because they can get a comparable plan through the exchange.
    The key words in your example is "she wants to stay home with the baby." This is where personally responsibility comes into play. Before they decide to have a baby, they need to determine if they can afford it, especially if the mother wants to quit her job. Although she wants to stay home with a baby, that just might not be an option. According to you, it's good that Obamacare gives her that option. According to me, if her husband can't afford to buy health care along with the cost of raising a baby, perhaps they should hold off on having a baby until they're in a better financial position.

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    entitlement programs are a drop in the bucket and are mostly used for the elderly and severely disabled.
    I see some apples starting to get mixed in with the oranges. We can't compare people who are mentally or physically unable to work (elderly and disabled) with those who are mentally and physically able to work but choose not to. Of course the majority of assistance goes to those who need it (the number of elderly alone makes this a fact), but it does absolutely nothing to change the argument. If you have $100 in your wallet and I steal $20 from you, are you satisfied with my argument that you still have 80 percent of the money?

    EDIT: I see that smokin beat me to the "equal opportunity, not outcome" argument. Great minds think alike.

    But so do mediocre ones.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    According to Nancy Pelosi and other Democrats, the magic money comes from Obamacare and quitting your job:

    "And just think, that you could be a photographer or writer, start your own business, be self-employed, as well as change jobs or start a business and not have to be constrained by whether you had affordable and accessible quality health care. That’s what this legislation does. We see it as an entrepreneurial bill."
    --Nancy Pelosi





    And why do you think that is? Unless they're born into it or win the lottery, people don't become wealthy by accident. Money doesn't "flow" to the top as if the system was designed for that to happen. The reason wealthy people keep getting more money is because they know how to make money. For our purposes, I'm defining wealthy as anyone who is successful and lives comfortably, not just the so-called 1 percent. And, of course, I'm talking about people who earn their money legally. On the flip side, the reason most poor people stay poor is because they don't know how to make money.

    And here's why it comes down to personal responsibility and not the "system.":
    The only thing America guarantees a person is equal opportunity. America does not guarantee equal outcomes.

    That's why you can have two biological brothers born poor in the inner city and living in the same environment. One studies hard at school, stays out of trouble, and ends up going to college and getting a good job. The other joins a gang, gets mixed up with drugs, ends up in jail for a few years, wants to change his life but struggles because "no one will give him a chance."
    Equal opportunity, different outcomes.
    The one brother is thankful for the opportunity America has provided him. The other blames the system for holding him down.

    That is what has always made America exceptional ... the opportunity to improve your life (or destroy it). Just because you were born wealthy doesn't mean you will stay wealthy. And just because you were born poor doesn't mean you have to stay poor. No matter where you start at in life, our country gives you an opportunity to be successful. It's up to you to seize that opportunity. If you do, it's not because of the system ... it's because of you. And if you don't, it's not because of the system ... it's because of you.


    And you've ignored a lot of my points, including when I asked you to provide the quote when you accused me of saying that no single mother should receive assistance.


    The key words in your example is "she wants to stay home with the baby." This is where personally responsibility comes into play. Before they decide to have a baby, they need to determine if they can afford it, especially if the mother wants to quit her job. Although she wants to stay home with a baby, that just might not be an option. According to you, it's good that Obamacare gives her that option. According to me, if her husband can't afford to buy health care along with the cost of raising a baby, perhaps they should hold off on having a baby until they're in a better financial position.


    I see some apples starting to get mixed in with the oranges. We can't compare people who are mentally or physically unable to work (elderly and disabled) with those who are mentally and physically able to work but choose not to. Of course the majority of assistance goes to those who need it (the number of elderly alone makes this a fact), but it does absolutely nothing to change the argument. If you have $100 in your wallet and I steal $20 from you, are you satisfied with my argument that you still have 80 percent of the money?

    EDIT: I see that smokin beat me to the "equal opportunity, not outcome" argument. Great minds think alike.

    But so do mediocre ones.
    Wrong the system is designed for the money to flow to the top in the form of profits then are paid to workers and to dividends. Its not like a business generates more money and it gets into the workers hands and they decide what to do with it. It is not the land of equal opportunity either, this myth has been debunked by many studies. Even your example is extremely flawed just because two brothers have the same opportunity as each other doesn't mean opportunity is equal for everyone. As far as entitlements go im not comparing disabled to abled body people im pointing out that very few people on welfare are jobless lazy young people, Its mostly elderly, disabled and working individuals. Also in my example of the mother you again ignore the fact that the family doesn't have to get the insurance through the employer anymore they can get through the exchange for a similar price which was not feasible before, not taking any subsidies! why is that irresponsible? Now to the point that rich people just know how to make money and poor people don't is ridiculous, rich people have money therefore they can buy businesses they can make considerable investments that yield large returns, they have access to other people with money and well paying employment opportunities. If making 17 billion dollars a year profit while your cashiers make $7.25 an hour (Wal-Mart) is a strategy you can respect that's your business, also walmart employees receive 2.66 billion dollars in government assistance per year same with other companies such as Mcdonalds. This means we are subsidizing the wages of these workers so the owners and the shareholders of these companies can keep making obscene amounts of money. Its sad when the Walton family is worth $90 billion dollars and there workers need welfare.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    You people don't even understand your own arguments, its not about a person making it here and there its whether or not the system as whole is beneficial for everyone especially in the long run.
    Can you name a society in the world that has a system that is equally beneficial for everyone? That system is called utopia. It doesn't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    America is not a land of equal opportunity
    Steeldawg, I'm a white guy in my early 40s and live in a middle-class neighborhood. One of my neighbors, three houses down, is an African-American a year younger than me. I grew up in a white middle-class neighborhood similar to the one we now live in. My neighbor grew up in the inner city, in one of the worst neighborhoods in Youngstown, Ohio. Right now he has a better job and makes more money than I do. In your view of this country, how is it even remotely possible that a poor black kid from the inner city can grow up to make more money than me, a privileged white kid from a middle-class neighborhood? How is that possible?

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    Can you name a society in the world that has a system that is equally beneficial for everyone? That system is called utopia. It doesn't exist.



    Steeldawg, I'm a white guy in my early 40s and live in a middle-class neighborhood. One of my neighbors, three houses down, is an African-American a year younger than me. I grew up in a white middle-class neighborhood similar to the one we now live in. My neighbor grew up in the inner city, in one of the worst neighborhoods in Youngstown, Ohio. Right now he has a better job and makes more money than I do. In your view of this country, how is it even remotely possible that a poor black kid from the inner city can grow up to make more money than me, a privileged white kid from a middle-class neighborhood? How is that possible?
    Wallace people have different outcomes to their lives just because two people end up in the same place doesn't mean the opportunities are equal for everyone. This has been studied over and over again regarded as a myth. the truth is most poor black kids from the inner city don't make it the data is there. Equal means equal a black kid from the inner city and you from a middle class family do not have the same opportunities as the son of bill gates, you just don't. As far as a utopia im talking about it in the sense of wealth meaning you cant have a system where the money is all at the top because it only benefits the top, in order for the system to benefit everyone there needs to be a greater balance of the wealth throughout the economy, im not talking about every individual getting an equal share.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Even your example is extremely flawed just because two brothers have the same opportunity as each other doesn't mean opportunity is equal for everyone.
    You're dodging the question. How can two brothers who live in the same environment and face the same hurdles end up with two completely different outcomes?

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    im pointing out that very few people on welfare are jobless lazy young people, Its mostly elderly, disabled and working individuals.
    I don't even know how to respond to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Also in my example of the mother you again ignore the fact that the family doesn't have to get the insurance through the employer anymore they can get through the exchange for a similar price which was not feasible before, not taking any subsidies! why is that irresponsible?
    Before Obamacare, why couldn't they get health care other than through her company?

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Now to the point that rich people just know how to make money and poor people don't is ridiculous, rich people have money therefore they can buy businesses they can make considerable investments that yield large returns, they have access to other people with money and well paying employment opportunities.
    Do you think most rich people start off rich?
    I agree that rich people have more money to play with, but how did they get that money in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    If making 17 billion dollars a year profit while your cashiers make $7.25 an hour (Wal-Mart) is a strategy you can respect that's your business
    This might be news to you, but people don't start businesses to provide good-paying jobs for other people. They start businesses to make money. And contrary to popular belief, greed isn't a bad thing. What if Bill Gates and Steve Jobs hadn't been greedy and had stopped expanding after a few years of success? Do you think technology would be where it's at today? Would all the people who have jobs in a computer field have those jobs today? But instead of appreciating someone like Bill Gates for all the jobs he has created and what he has done for society, we're just going to hate him because, you know, he has billions of dollars and it isn't fair to the rest of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Its sad when the Walton family is worth $90 billion dollars and there workers need welfare.
    How much do you know about Sam Walton's early life?

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot


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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    just because two people end up in the same place doesn't mean the opportunities are equal for everyone.
    I don't think you understand what is meant by opportunity. It's not about advantages and disadvantages. It's about possibility. Is something possible?
    Everyone faces different obstacles in life. It's impossible to create a society where everyone has the same advantages.

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Equal means equal a black kid from the inner city and you from a middle class family do not have the same opportunities as the son of bill gates, you just don't.
    It's funny that you use the son of Bill Gates in your example. Look at my comment about Gates a few posts up. Bill Gates wasn't born a billionaire. How did he get to where he's at? Why does his son have the advantages that he does?

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    in order for the system to benefit everyone there needs to be a greater balance of the wealth throughout the economy
    Give me an example of where this exists, something we can model America after.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    I don't think you understand what is meant by opportunity. It's not about advantages and disadvantages. It's about possibility. Is something possible?
    Everyone faces different obstacles in life. It's impossible to create a society where everyone has the same advantages.


    It's funny that you use the son of Bill Gates in your example. Look at my comment about Gates a few posts up. Bill Gates wasn't born a billionaire. How did he get to where he's at? Why does his son have the advantages that he does?


    Give me an example of where this exists, something we can model America after.
    YOu should look up what equal opportunity means and then tell me it exists in America. Of course there are opportunities in America but they are far from equal. No you cant model after another economy because they are having the same issues, Almost half of the WORLD'S wealth is owned by 1% of the population. Im done with the issue you just keep asking me the same questions over and over.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    One percent is really not that small a number. .08 percent of all high school football players manage to play a down of NFL football. .02 of high school basketball players make it to the NBA. You have a 1-41,000 chance of going into space. How about a doctor? From 2004 census statistics of the US Labor Department and of the American Medical Association, there are approximately 885,000 (884,974) doctors in the US. This represents about 0.29% of the population or one-third of 1%. There is roughly one doctor to 300 people in the US.

    Anyway bottom line is if you take a defeatist attitude towards life there wouldn't be much of anything worth having ever achieved. 1% while small is absolutely attainable. And even if you don't make it to the magical one percent there's still a whole lot to be had out there.

    I'm not rich, certainly not part of the one percent. But my vehicles are all paid for. My mortgage was paid off a decade ago. And my son who's a senior is going to college next fall. So you know what, maybe I am rich after all?
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    One percent is really not that small a number. .08 percent of all high school football players manage to play a down of NFL football. .02 of high school basketball players make it to the NBA. You have a 1-41,000 chance of going into space. How about a doctor? From 2004 census statistics of the US Labor Department and of the American Medical Association, there are approximately 885,000 (884,974) doctors in the US. This represents about 0.29% of the population or one-third of 1%. There is roughly one doctor to 300 people in the US.

    Anyway bottom line is if you take a defeatist attitude towards life there wouldn't be much of anything worth having ever achieved. 1% while small is absolutely attainable. And even if you don't make it to the magical one percent there's still a whole lot to be had out there.

    I'm not rich, certainly not part of the one percent. But my vehicles are all paid for. My mortgage was paid off a decade ago. And my son who's a senior is going to college next fall. So you know what, maybe I am rich after all?
    Well 1% is a small number compared to 99% so if the 1% controls all the wealth where does that leave the 99%. Its not a defeatist attitude it is what it is, what do you want me to tell you the system is fantastic?

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Well 1% is a small number compared to 99% so if the 1% controls all the wealth where does that leave the 99%. Its not a defeatist attitude it is what it is, what do you want me to tell you the system is fantastic?
    1% doesn't control all the wealth doofus. 50% is still left out there.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    YOu should look up what equal opportunity means and then tell me it exists in America. Of course there are opportunities in America but they are far from equal.
    Again, you're confusing opportunity with advantage. Do some people have more advantages? Absolutely. But having fewer advantages doesn't mean that you don't have the opportunity to be successful. In America, everyone who is able to work has the opportunity to become successful, regardless of what advantages they lack. Every poor person who is able to work has the opportunity to rise out of poverty. If opportunity didn't exist, as you claim, then there would be no examples of poor people who have become successful. None. So the fact that countless poor people have become successful is proof that opportunity exists. The question is why are some poor people, without equal advantage, able to seize the opportunity while many others don't? That's the important question you've consistently dodged.

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    No you cant model after another economy because they are having the same issues, Almost half of the WORLD'S wealth is owned by 1% of the population.
    You can't provide a model because none exists. None has ever existed. None will ever exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Im done with the issue you just keep asking me the same questions over and over.
    I keep asking you the same questions over and over because you keep dodging them.

    Dawg, if you're done with the issue, that's fine. I hope one day you find that utopian society where no one has any advantages. Send me a postcard.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    Again, you're confusing opportunity with advantage. Do some people have more advantages? Absolutely. But having fewer advantages doesn't mean that you don't have the opportunity to be successful. In America, everyone who is able to work has the opportunity to become successful, regardless of what advantages they lack. Every poor person who is able to work has the opportunity to rise out of poverty. If opportunity didn't exist, as you claim, then there would be no examples of poor people who have become successful. None. So the fact that countless poor people have become successful is proof that opportunity exists. The question is why are some poor people, without equal advantage, able to seize the opportunity while many others don't? That's the important question you've consistently dodged.


    You can't provide a model because none exists. None has ever existed. None will ever exist.


    I keep asking you the same questions over and over because you keep dodging them.

    Dawg, if you're done with the issue, that's fine. I hope one day you find that utopian society where no one has any advantages. Send me a postcard.
    Im not confusing advantages with equal opportunities, People with advantages over other people are exactly why you cant have equal opportunity. Advantages give people access to opportunities , for instance a person born into money has an advantage over a person in poverty which gives them the opportunity to purchase a multimillion dollar business that the person in poverty does not have. Could that person in poverty have a multi million dollar business one day, sure, very unlikely but it is possible, but his opportunities for owning that business are no where near equal.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Im not confusing advantages with equal opportunities, People with advantages over other people are exactly why you cant have equal opportunity. Advantages give people access to opportunities , for instance a person born into money has an advantage over a person in poverty which gives them the opportunity to purchase a multimillion dollar business that the person in poverty does not have. Could that person in poverty have a multi million dollar business one day, sure, very unlikely but it is possible, but his opportunities for owning that business are no where near equal.
    Somewhere up the line, someone broke busted their hump and built a business. Did he pass it on to his kids? Sure. Does that open more doors for his kids? Yes but someone had to make it happen. When I was selling mobile homes, I met the folks everyday. Beer and cigarettes paid first, everything else last. That's not lack of opportunity, that's lack of ambition. You can start a business doing anything these days. Buy a cheap lawn mower or pressure washer off Craigslist and go cut grass or power wash roofs, houses, patios, and drive ways. You don't have to rich or born rich to start those businesses but most people won't because it's out of their comfort zone and people like you make enough excuses for them that they don't have to.
    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Im not confusing advantages with equal opportunities, People with advantages over other people are exactly why you cant have equal opportunity. Advantages give people access to opportunities , for instance a person born into money has an advantage over a person in poverty which gives them the opportunity to purchase a multimillion dollar business that the person in poverty does not have. Could that person in poverty have a multi million dollar business one day, sure, very unlikely but it is possible, but his opportunities for owning that business are no where near equal.
    I get what you're saying, and it's semantics. Let me put this one more way, and this will be my last word on it (hopefully) ...

    When I walk into work this morning, there will be a sign in the main hallway designating our business as an "equal opportunity employer." What that means is that everyone has an opportunity to be hired. No one can be discriminated against. But that does not mean that everyone who applies has an equal chance of getting the job. Those with more advantages (experience, qualifications, etc.) are more likely to get hired. Last year we were hiring a new sports editor. The first candidate walked in and he was dressed unprofessionally. As soon as we saw him, we knew he had no chance. His interview skills also were horrible. He wasn't qualified at all. Although the odds were nearly impossible that he'd get the job, he did have equal opportunity.

    That's what I (and others) mean by "equal opportunity" ... that everyone has a chance. No one is disqualified from having a chance. It's all about what you do with the chance that this country gives you. We're not a country where you are destined to remain in the class you're born into. What you mean by "equal opportunity" is a completely level playing field, no advantages for anyone. Equal opportunity, by your way of thinking, is a unicorn. It's that utopian society that doesn't exist. You said so yourself:

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    People with advantages over other people are exactly why you cant have equal opportunity.
    So I'm not sure why you keep complaining that equal opportunity, as you define it, does not exist in America when it's impossible for it to exist. Some people are always going to have advantages over other people no matter what efforts are made to level the playing field. No matter what efforts are taken to try to level the playing field, successful people who have advantages will use those advantages to keep the odds in their favor. But even if the playing field isn't level, that doesn't mean that the opportunity for people to rise out of poverty doesn't exist.

    This country gives everyone the opportunity to become successful (equal opportunity). American history is filled with countless poor people who seized that opportunity. The key is to get people to stop thinking that they're helpless and to start believing that they can achieve success. In order to do something, you first have to believe that you can.
    Last edited by Wallace108; 02-24-2014 at 08:46 AM.

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    I get what you're saying, and it's semantics. Let me put this one more way, and this will be my last word on it (hopefully) ...

    When I walk into work this morning, there will be a sign in the main hallway designating our business as an "equal opportunity employer." What that means is that everyone has an opportunity to be hired. No one can be discriminated against. But that does not mean that everyone who applies has an equal chance of getting the job. Those with more advantages (experience, qualifications, etc.) are more likely to get hired. Last year we were hiring a new sports editor. The first candidate walked in and he was dressed unprofessionally. As soon as we saw him, we knew he had no chance. His interview skills also were horrible. He wasn't qualified at all. Although the odds were nearly impossible that he'd get the job, he did have equal opportunity.

    That's what I (and others) mean by "equal opportunity" ... that everyone has a chance. No one is disqualified from having a chance. It's all about what you do with the chance that this country gives you. We're not a country where you are destined to remain in the class you're born into. What you mean by "equal opportunity" is a completely level playing field, no advantages for anyone. Equal opportunity, by your way of thinking, is a unicorn. It's that utopian society that doesn't exist. You said so yourself:


    So I'm not sure why you keep complaining that equal opportunity, as you define it, does not exist in America when it's impossible for it to exist. Some people are always going to have advantages over other people no matter what efforts are made to level the playing field. No matter what efforts are taken to try to level the playing field, successful people who have advantages will use those advantages to keep the odds in their favor. But even if the playing field isn't level, that doesn't mean that the opportunity for people to rise out of poverty doesn't exist.

    This country gives everyone the opportunity to become successful (equal opportunity). American history is filled with countless poor people who seized that opportunity. The key is to get people to stop thinking that they're helpless and to start believing that they can achieve success. In order to do something, you first have to believe that you can.
    An equal opportunity employer just means they are not going to discriminate based race sex or gender it does not mean that everyone's chance at working there is equal.

  30. #60
    Senior Member Array title="smokin3000gt has a reputation beyond repute"> smokin3000gt's Avatar

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    Re: Democrat's Bold Defense of ObamaCare Job-Killer: Nobody Really Wants a Job Promot

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    An equal opportunity employer just means they are not going to discriminate based race sex or gender it does not mean that everyone's chance at working there is equal.
    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    Tomlin is that good.



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