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Thread: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

  1. #181
    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    Just caught this. I guess you'd be surprised to find out I voted for Barack Obama in 2008. Last year, I voted for more independents and Democrats than Republicans underneath the presidential ballot. So please, don't make assumptions. There has been too much of that in this thread. I don't like people putting words in my mouth.
    I didn't put words in your mouth. I made an assumption based on your posts. Read my post again. It was strictly my opinion and doesn't come anywhere close to putting words in your mouth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    That was the third time in as many days you've made an assumption about my point of view that had no base in my posts nor any base in reality. I think it's safe to say if that's the same process you use to determine the stances candidates will take, you have a pretty inaccurate view of the big picture. I'm not trying to be an ass, but I can only see someone make baseless assumptions so many times before my respect for the opinions they hold starts to degrade. No offense intended.
    Yeah, I'm sorry I assumed you voted for the Republican in 2008. After reading a good number of your posts, I honestly don't know what could have led me to that assumption. Refresh my memory ... what were the other two assumptions I was wrong about?

    No one else has accused me of making baseless assumptions or putting words in their mouth. If I'm not accurately processing a few of your points, perhaps you're not doing a good enough job of presenting them.

    Oh, and when you feel the need to resort to personal attacks, it could be a sign that you're losing the argument.

    Now that we've both had our say, there are two directions this can go in:
    1. We can get back to a respectful discussion of the issues and hopefully learn a little more from each other.
    2. We can engage in a silly war of personal attacks that solves absolutely nothing.

    Personally, I prefer the first option.

  2. #182
    Smashmouth Posting Array title="Seven has much to be proud of"> Seven's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    I didn't put words in your mouth. I made an assumption based on your posts. Read my post again. It was strictly my opinion and doesn't come anywhere close to putting words in your mouth.



    Yeah, I'm sorry I assumed you voted for the Republican in 2008. After reading a good number of your posts, I honestly don't know what could have led me to that assumption. Refresh my memory ... what were the other two assumptions I was wrong about?

    Oh, and when you feel the need to resort to personal attacks, it could be a sign that you're losing the argument.
    I wasn't aware of any argument.

    That's not a personal attack, that's reality based on your own actions. The errors in your inferring throughout this thread are easy to find. I don't need to point them out. There are three explicit instances of you making assumptions that had no basis in fact whatsoever. You apologized for one, ignored the second and just made an excuse for the third.

    I have no hard feelings, just a better understanding of the process which drives you to the conclusions you reach. It explains a lot.
    "If you are holding on to something that you no longer need to hold on to, I encourage you to let go." - Rashard Mendenhall

  3. #183
    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    I wasn't aware of any argument.

    That's not a personal attack, that's reality based on your own actions. The errors in your inferring throughout this thread are easy to find. I don't need to point them out. There are three explicit instances of you making assumptions that had no basis in fact whatsoever. You apologized for one, ignored the second and just made an excuse for the third.

    I have no hard feelings, just a better understanding of the process which drives you to the conclusions you reach. It explains a lot.
    Yes, I think you need to point them out. You made the accusation. If they're easy to find, it shouldn't be any trouble for you. On the one hand, you can't hold me responsible for your own failure to make a few of your points more clearly. On the other hand, if I was way off base on anything I said because of my own ignorance, I don't have any problem apologizing for it. Either way, please point out my grievous errors that have shaken your trust in my "process that drives me to the conclusions I reach."

    And since you feel the need to judge and criticize my ability to infer and reach conclusions, let's test yours. Who do you think I voted for in the past two presidential elections?

  4. #184
    Senior Member Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute"> zulater's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    Zu, take another look at that list of candidates we've had to choose from since 1988. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think you'll agree with me that it's a pathetic list. Do you have an explanation as to why we can't seem to get better candidates?

    I'll offer an explanation (taken from the Constitution Party Florida website). What is said in the following two paragraphs ... do you not see it playing out? Tell me what you disagree with:




    Is that not exactly what has happened? On the surface, voting for the lesser of two evils seems like the right thing to do. But look at where it has gotten us.

    Zu, you and Seven think that because some people refused to vote for Romney, we got stuck with four more years of Obama. I, however, think we got stuck with four more years of Obama because Republicans refuse to nominate better candidates.

    So, how do we get better candidates? Certainly not by continuing to do the same things that have led to the overabundance of bad candidates in the first place.

    "Pragmatic voting always results in a downward trend in the quality of candidates."

    "Good candidates seldom receive the support they need to become viable. The problem of bad choices is thereby perpetuated, and the nation continues to deteriorate ..."



    "What invariably happens is people again become apathetic, and the greater evil makes an even stronger comeback."

    In theory that all sounds great. And if I were King of the world things wouldn't be as they are. But at the end of the day it is what it is. And there hasn't been a Presidential election in my lifetime where the only two candidates with any chance to win weren't the ones nominated by the Democrats and Republicans. Until that changes I will vote for the one that is most in line with my own ideology.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

  5. #185
    Smashmouth Posting Array title="Seven has much to be proud of"> Seven's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    Yes, I think you need to point them out. You made the accusation. If they're easy to find, it shouldn't be any trouble for you. On the one hand, you can't hold me responsible for your own failure to make a few of your points more clearly. On the other hand, if I was way off base on anything I said because of my own ignorance, I don't have any problem apologizing for it. Either way, please point out my grievous errors that have shaken your trust in my "process that drives me to the conclusions I reach."

    And since you feel the need to judge and criticize my ability to infer and reach conclusions, let's test yours. Who do you think I voted for in the past two presidential elections?
    I've stated my points succinctly throughout this conversation. To summarize: I believe voters should vote for who they think is the best candidate to move this nation forward regardless of party. And I do not think they should vote for a small party candidate, or not vote at all, simply in the hopes that the wrong candidate will win thus moving this country into further chaos; hoping that said chaos will encourage change. I feel that is childish, negligent, lazy and irresponsible. Is that a simple enough description to comprehend?

    I don't have any interest in guessing who you voted for. I wouldn't attempt to. That's the point. I don't know enough about you. I do know, that on three occasions now (#109, #174, #179 were my responses) you have incorrectly interpreted posts that were very easy to understand. That makes me question how you interpret the intent of potential public representatives, and I will not apologize for that. But that is in no way meant as a personal attack. I can see how that may come across as insulting, but that is a byproduct of the point and not the intent.

    I'm sorry, I shouldn't have taken such offense. It was simply very off the mark to speculate that I vote straight Republican. My comments do not indicate that. I have explicitly expressed liberal and libertarian ideals in the past.

    But I suppose a congratulations is in order seeing as you won the argument, eh? Haha (I'm just kidding).
    "If you are holding on to something that you no longer need to hold on to, I encourage you to let go." - Rashard Mendenhall

  6. #186
    The voice of reason Array title="GoSlash27 has a reputation beyond repute"> GoSlash27's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    Just caught this. I guess you'd be surprised to find out I voted for Barack Obama in 2008. Last year, I voted for more independents and Democrats than Republicans underneath the presidential ballot. So please, don't make assumptions. There has been too much of that in this thread. I don't like people putting words in my mouth.
    Ironic that you of all people would raise this objection, considering how insistent you have been about misrepresenting my motives over the past year *despite* having been repeatedly corrected.
    / do unto others, etc.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

  7. #187
    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    I think it's safe to say if that's the same process you use to determine the stances candidates will take, you have a pretty inaccurate view of the big picture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    That makes me question how you interpret the intent of potential public representatives
    A few posts ago you admitted to voting for Obama. I don't think you're in a position to criticize my ability to judge a candidate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    I don't have any interest in guessing who you voted for. I wouldn't attempt to. That's the point. I don't know enough about you.
    Fair enough. I must say though that you've made quite a few assumptions about me in the past few days without knowing enough about me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    I do know, that on three occasions now (#109, #174, #179 were my responses) you have incorrectly interpreted posts that were very easy to understand.
    OK, let's take these one at a time.

    #174
    I gave you a scenario and asked you some questions in order to better understand your position. That doesn't mean that I incorrectly interpreted your post. I was seeing where you stood on the scenario I provided. Since you've joined the board, I haven't posted here regularly, so I'm not as familiar with all of your positions as others might be. In your post that I responded to, you stated what you consider an "irresponsible, lazy and ignorant outlook." I ended my post by stating what I consider an "irresponsible, lazy and ignorant outlook." I'm really not sure why you're misconstruing my post as putting words in your mouth or incorrectly interpreting your views. During the course of a discussion, I don't see anything wrong with asking someone to clarify a position or expand on a comment. If anything, you incorrectly interpreted my post.

    #179
    Yeah, I'm actually surprised to learn that you voted for Obama. Like I said, I haven't been here regularly over the past year, but based on your posts that I've read, all I've seen you do is slam Obama and pimp Republicans. My assumption was wrong, but I highly doubt anyone here, other than you, can blame me for assuming that you voted for Obama over McCain.

    #109
    OK, this was the one post that I incorrectly interpreted because I read it too quickly and just skimmed over the last sentence. But as soon as I realized that I was wrong, I admitted it, explained my intent, and apologized for the confusion. Apparently that wasn't good enough for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    I'm sorry, I shouldn't have taken such offense. It was simply very off the mark to speculate that I vote straight Republican.
    I'll counter that it's also off the mark to suggest that anyone here would "see the country crash and burn just for the chance to inspire the overhaul they desire." (post #157) ... Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'll make another assumption that you were directing that at me and Slash. I think I know Slash's position, but I'll let him speak for himself. As for me, not once have I ever advocated that view. What I did say is that Obama getting re-elected might be a blessing in disguise in that it could have some positive consequences. If another Obama term helps bring about positive change in the Republican Party, that's beneficial in the long run. Allow me to better explain this view by making a football analogy. Let's say the Steelers lose out and finish 2-14. As we head toward the draft, I might suggest that the horrible season had some positive consequences in that we got a sweet draft pick. Having a bad season, while obviously not something you want, could be beneficial in the long run. In no way should that be interpreted to mean that I want the Steelers to lose so that we can get a high draft pick. I'd much rather be talking about the playoffs instead of the draft right now. Likewise, I'd much rather have a Republican president right now. But that's not going to happen in the foreseeable future unless Republicans get their shit together and start nominating better candidates. And more importantly, the country isn't going to get back on track until we get some better candidates.

    You can have the final word if you want it. You also can PM me if you want to discuss anything I said a little further. Otherwise, I say we get back to discussing everything political that doesn't involve a government shutdown.
    Last edited by Wallace108; 11-08-2013 at 03:02 AM.

  8. #188
    Smashmouth Posting Array title="Seven has much to be proud of"> Seven's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Fair enough. And again, congratulations on winning the argument. Maybe I need to develop a different perspective on these threads. I wasn't aware we kept score. Next time, I'll know better.
    "If you are holding on to something that you no longer need to hold on to, I encourage you to let go." - Rashard Mendenhall

  9. #189
    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    Fair enough. And again, congratulations on winning the argument. Maybe I need to develop a different perspective on these threads. I wasn't aware we kept score. Next time, I'll know better.
    Dude, I've offered an olive branch to you several times. I'm getting tired of getting smacked with it. Why are you trying to provoke me?

    EDIT: Don't bother answering. I won't see it. Congratulations on being the first poster I've ever put on ignore. Looks like you won.

  10. #190
    The voice of reason Array title="GoSlash27 has a reputation beyond repute"> GoSlash27's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    I'll counter that it's also off the mark to suggest that anyone here would "see the country crash and burn just for the chance to inspire the overhaul they desire." (post #157) ... Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'll make another assumption that you were directing that at me and Slash. I think I know Slash's position, but I'll let him speak for himself. As for me, not once have I ever advocated that view.
    That's actually what I was referring to earlier. He's been corrected on that enough times to know better, which is why it's so ironic that he would complain about other people "making false assumptions" (especially when they aren't).
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

  11. #191
    Senior Member Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute"> zulater's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    http://www.patriotthoughts.com/2013/...o-republicans/

    Some of you might find this data interesting.


    The percentage of each past president’s cabinet who had worked in the private business sector prior to their appointment to the cabinet…..

    You know what the private business sector is. A real-life business, not a Government job. Here are the percentages:

    T. Roosevelt………………. 38%
    Taft……………………………40%
    Wilson ……………………… 52%
    Harding…………………….. 49%
    Coolidge…………………… 48%
    Hoover ………………………42%
    F. Roosevelt………………. 50%
    Truman………………………50%
    Eisenhower……………….. 57%
    Kennedy……………………. 30%
    Johnson……………………..47%
    Nixon…………………………53%
    Ford…………………………..42%
    Carter………………………..32%
    Reagan………………………56%
    GH Bush…………………….51%
    Clinton ……………………..39%
    GW Bush……………………55%
    Obama……………………….. 8%

    This helps to explain the incompetence of this administration: only 8% of them have ever worked in private business!

    That’s right! Only eight percent — the least, by far, of the last 19 presidents! And these people are trying to tell our big Corporations how to run their business?

    How can the president of a major nation and society, the one with the most successful economic system in world history, stand and talk about business when he’s never worked for one? Or about jobs when he has never really had one? And when it’s the same for 92% of his senior staff and closest advisers?

    They’ve spent most of their time in academia, Government and/or non-profit jobs or as “community organizers.” They should have been in an employment line.

    Pass this on because we’ll NEVER see these facts in the mainstream media.

    “One of the penalties of not participating in politics is that you will be governed by your inferiors.” - Plato


    Thought this might fit in well with this discussion. This is why Romney would have been much better than Obama for this country in my opinion.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

  12. #192
    The voice of reason Array title="GoSlash27 has a reputation beyond repute"> GoSlash27's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Thought this might fit in well with this discussion. This is why Romney would have been much better than Obama for this country in my opinion.
    Believe me: by now everybody is fully aware of your opinion of why Romney would have been better. They are also fully aware of all my reasons for why he would've been just as bad, if not worse.

    All of this is moot. He didn't win and he was never close, so there's no good reason for discussing him other than as an object lesson in how to lose the White House.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

  13. #193
    Senior Member Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute"> zulater's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    Believe me: by now everybody is fully aware of your opinion of why Romney would have been better. They are also fully aware of all my reasons for why he would've been just as bad, if not worse.

    All of this is moot. He didn't win and he was never close, so there's no good reason for discussing him other than as an object lesson in how to lose the White House.
    And I'll continue to bring it up when I see something relevant that adds to the discussion because if the candidate of your choice isn't nominated next time hopefully I can reach some people of similar mindset and explain exactly why the "lesser of two evils" if that's all you're presented is a choice that you should be making, even if you find it distasteful.

    - - - Updated - - -

    http://www.ijreview.com/2013/11/9366...e-people-know/

    Former Secret Service Agent Dan Bongino once protect the life of President Barack Obama. But the incessant scandals of the administration pushed him to turn in his badge and seek Congressional office in Maryland as a Republican.

    As ABC News reported about Dan Bongino, while attempting to discredit him:

    Bongino, 39, is careful not to say too much about exactly what he saw and heard while protecting the president, but hints that “It’s worse than people know. They’d be shocked, scared, if they knew everything.”

    “Being a Secret Service agent, I have an obligation not to disclose personal conversations and security details,” he told ABCNews.com. “But that doesn’t prevent me from speaking generally about foundational principles and the system of patronage and punishment I saw in the Obama administration.”

    WRKO radio host Jeff Kuhner interviewed Bongino this week and he shared some insight into what he called the “dangerous” Obama administration. Bongino discussed the threat to Jeff Kuhner:




    “No, don’t trust them with your civil liberties,” he continued, “They don’t govern, all they do is campaign, and everything to them is division capital. How do we divide people and not get them to vote for us but to get them to vote against the other guy. They’re doing it now with ObamaCare. The website broke – oh, it’s the website designer. It’s not the fact that the whole system was designed poorly, ObamaCare, and now it’s, uh, ‘the Republicans are doing it, they’re holding it up,’ it’s all nonsense. They don’t get you to vote for them, they get you to vote against the other guy.”

    And the last sentence explains it all.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

  14. #194
    Smashmouth Posting Array title="Seven has much to be proud of"> Seven's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    They are also fully aware of all my reasons for why he would've been just as bad, if not worse.
    You've never provided any reasons. Not any relevant ones, at least. You simply state it's so and expect others to take your unfounded and baseless opinions as fact.
    "If you are holding on to something that you no longer need to hold on to, I encourage you to let go." - Rashard Mendenhall

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    Senior Member Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute"> zulater's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    You've never provided any reasons. Not any relevant ones, at least. You simply state it's so and expect others to take your unfounded and baseless opinions as fact.
    ^^^^^

    This!
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

  16. #196
    The voice of reason Array title="GoSlash27 has a reputation beyond repute"> GoSlash27's Avatar

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    Re: Government Shutdown Discussion .....

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    You've never provided any reasons. Not any relevant ones, at least. You simply state it's so and expect others to take your unfounded and baseless opinions as fact.
    Seems to me you've just contradicted yourself here. How can you judge reasons "I've never provided"?
    You don't *like* them, and that is your right... but they most definitely *were* provided. Complete with citations and even video evidence.
    So if all you can say about it is

    ... then I suppose we'll just have to let it go at that. As in "he lost. It's over. Let it go."

    One thing, tho': If we end up with another Republican candidate like Romney (even if that's just, like , my opinion, man), don't expect me to vote for him. I trust you understand I'm serious about that.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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