Winners and Biggest "Concern''

[Chidi29]

I'd have to go back and look at the play again but I'm pretty sure that he got pushed in to that.

- - - Updated - - -

My biggest concern is the secondary. Gay is still terrible and none of the young CBs (excluding Cortez) have shown much NFL ability. The injuries have certainly not helped things either.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/08...ruz-touchdown/

Clark and Troy admit they were out of position on the play.

But everything is always William Gay's fault....

[steeldawg]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/08...ruz-touchdown/

Clark and Troy admit they were out of position on the play.

But everything is always William Gay's fault....

Yes...

[zulater]

You can do a lot worse than Gay as your nickel back/ spot starter. Even if he was primarily responsible for the touchdown the other night ( which is debatable) that happens in the NFL. The other guy is payed to make plays too.

The Steelers have legitimate concerns. But Gay isn't one of them.

[SteelerFanInStl]

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/08...ruz-touchdown/

Clark and Troy admit they were out of position on the play.

But everything is always William Gay's fault....

Then that's still a problem with the secondary isn't it?

I've watched Gay since he came in to the NFL. He's a barely adequate nickel, nothing more.

[polamalubeast]

You can do a lot worse than Gay as your nickel back/ spot starter. Even if he was primarily responsible for the touchdown the other night ( which is debatable) that happens in the NFL. The other guy is payed to make plays too.

The Steelers have legitimate concerns. But Gay isn't one of them.

In fact,the defense is not a concerns for me

[Dwinsgames]

Gay takes WAY more flack than he deserves ... is he an all world CB NO , is he bottom of the barrel ? Hardly

I am no fan of Gay , but we could do a lot worse ... he makes the most of his ability and in an assignment perspective he is pretty dam good , he does lack size and top end speed but again he is not a 10 million dollar a year CB either ...

In terms as a Nickle back you would be hard pressed to statistically find one any better and my guess is you will not at his price tag anywhere in the league ...

even with all that I am still not a fan but I have a tough time dogging him for what he is because I know what he is and do not expect flashy play from a guy who IMO is playing out of pos when playing the outside ... he is a nickle back / slot corner that gives you 100% effort on every play and is always spot on with his assignment , sometimes that is not good enough but we have to remember the guys on the other side are paid to make plays too

[Chidi29]

Then that's still a problem with the secondary isn't it?

I've watched Gay since he came in to the NFL. He's a barely adequate nickel, nothing more.

Not really. Clark and Troy are fine. It was one bad play. World still spinning.

[NJarhead]

You guys hate William Gay but without him, , we'd only have one veteran cornerback. His presence is huge and assuming Cortez comes back for Week One, gives us three deep. If if it was Curtis Brown or Victorian at nickel, teams would go 3 WR and kill us. Plus, Gay can play outside or in the slot. Harder than it sounds and being a nickel corner is no fun. Tough to cover because the receiver can go inside or out and you usually don't see press from that spot so you can't reroute.

Chidi, it always seems the same to me: Willie Gay is on the WR like stink on (poop), but the WR seemingly always makes the catch regardless. So what real value does he bring if he can't prevent the catch/TD?

[Chidi29]

Chidi, it always seems the same to me: Willie Gay is on the WR like stink on (poop), but the WR seemingly always makes the catch regardless. So what real value does he bring if he can't prevent the catch/TD?

First, that's probably a really overstated thought. He's just under the microscope more after every single catch he allows. He isn't a shutdown corner. But you don't need that in LeBeau's scheme when you have Ike. You just need someone who is physical, tackles well, and supports the run. Gay does that very well. He's a veteran on a currently ragtag group of players who can play inside or out. His signing is preventing Isaiah Green from being our #3 cornerback right now. That's his value.

[fansince'76]

In fact,the defense is not a concerns for me

Me neither. I saw PLENTY to be excited about on that side of the ball.

[NJarhead]

First, that's probably a really overstated thought. He's just under the microscope more after every single catch he allows. He isn't a shutdown corner. But you don't need that in LeBeau's scheme when you have Ike. You just need someone who is physical, tackles well, and supports the run. Gay does that very well. He's a veteran on a currently ragtag group of players who can play inside or out. His signing is preventing Isaiah Green from being our #3 cornerback right now. That's his value.

Maybe it's because he usually fails during a critical part of the game or gives up the big play. Regardless, he's playing the man when it happens so scheme doesn't appear to be the issue. I disagree that it's over stated and I am trying be convinced otherwise. I'm not saying he's garbage, but it's so frustrating when you see the ball thrown his way, see how tight the coverage is and then the ball is caught without any attempt at a break up by him. Heck, if he'd get his head around he might just get a few picks for us.

[Bluecoat96]

The more I think about the things the first team offense did, the more excited I get. I've said it before, but I ultimately see a Saints type offense with Larod Stevens-Howling fulfilling a Sproles type role. I think he will be lethal for us. Of course, this will all be shot to hell if Ben and the O-line get banged up. Lol

[Chidi29]

Maybe it's because he usually fails during a critical part of the game or gives up the big play. Regardless, he's playing the man when it happens so scheme doesn't appear to be the issue. I disagree that it's over stated and I am trying be convinced otherwise. I'm not saying he's garbage, but it's so frustrating when you see the ball thrown his way, see how tight the coverage is and then the ball is caught without any attempt at a break up by him. Heck, if he'd get his head around he might just get a few picks for us.

Again, I think he gets more noticed because everyone loves to dog the guy. As if other cornerbacks never get beat. Remember when half of Steelers' fans were calling for Ike Taylor's head last season? Steelers' fans hate cornerbacks.

[steel striker]

I know it is only the first pre season game but, if the o-line does not get better with pass protection Ben is going to be running for his life.

[NJarhead]

Again, I think he gets more noticed because everyone loves to dog the guy. As if other cornerbacks never get beat. Remember when half of Steelers' fans were calling for Ike Taylor's head last season? Steelers' fans hate cornerbacks.

Chidi, I think he gets more noticed for always being in the vicinity of the big play for the opposing offense. Ike was struggling early on last year, so the criticism was a bit warranted; as with anyone else. As I said, the scenario is seemingly always the same and I can think of three examples right off the top of my head (I'm sure there are several more that may not be committed to memory due to us winning the game in spite of him):
1). 2009 (?) Bal @ Pit - Gives up the game winning TD despite being right there.
2). 2010 Pit @ GB (Super Bowl) - Play was nearly identical to the first one I mentioned.
3). Saturday night. I know it's only pre-season, but regarding his performance, it's the same.

We rarely hear anything about Ike because he tends to shut down his man and that's that. Last year, Keenan Lewis rarely drew any attention to himself because he did his job well. I've never had any confidence in William Gay to go unnoticed through a season.

The man can cover, but I don't see why he still gives up the big play as often as he does.

[HollywoodSteel]

Maybe it's because he usually fails during a critical part of the game or gives up the big play. Regardless, he's playing the man when it happens so scheme doesn't appear to be the issue. I disagree that it's over stated and I am trying be convinced otherwise. I'm not saying he's garbage, but it's so frustrating when you see the ball thrown his way, see how tight the coverage is and then the ball is caught without any attempt at a break up by him. Heck, if he'd get his head around he might just get a few picks for us.

I get what you're saying, and I'm as guilty as anyone for screaming at the TV when he gives up a play, but I have to agree with the other posters here. No one is going to convince you that he is great, nor should they, but as a nickel corner, and at his price, you could do a lot worse. If hard pressed could you name 5 nickel corners in the NFL that you'd rather have (taking into account knowledge of our schemes in favor of Gay)? For every time I scream for his head I have to remember that Gay played a crucial part in our '08 Super Bowl run. Was he overvalued the next year as a #2 corner? Probably. But right now I'm glad we have him, especially considering the lack of depth and experience at that position.

[polamalubeast]

Clark Admits Both He And Polamalu Were Out Of Position On Cruz Touchdown


http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/08...ruz-touchdown/

[NJarhead]

Clark Admits Both He And Polamalu Were Out Of Position On Cruz Touchdown


http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/08...ruz-touchdown/

I read that and the TD was not only Gays, but theirs as well. But it starts with Gay. This isn't an isolated incident.

[Chidi29]

Chidi, I think he gets more noticed for always being in the vicinity of the big play for the opposing offense. Ike was struggling early on last year, so the criticism was a bit warranted; as with anyone else. As I said, the scenario is seemingly always the same and I can think of three examples right off the top of my head (I'm sure there are several more that may not be committed to memory due to us winning the game in spite of him):
1). 2009 (?) Bal @ Pit - Gives up the game winning TD despite being right there.
2). 2010 Pit @ GB (Super Bowl) - Play was nearly identical to the first one I mentioned.
3). Saturday night. I know it's only pre-season, but regarding his performance, it's the same.

We rarely hear anything about Ike because he tends to shut down his man and that's that. Last year, Keenan Lewis rarely drew any attention to himself because he did his job well. I've never had any confidence in William Gay to go unnoticed through a season.

The man can cover, but I don't see why he still gives up the big play as often as he does.

The problem is that we're working with the assumption that Gay was solely responsible for all those plays. It can be really hard to determine without knowing what is going on. Especially like Saturday when you're left with crappy TV angles to try and figure it out. Clark already admitted that the safeties were out of position on the play. Think that affected Gay some? Likely.

And we have left him in some really poor matchups throughout his career. Nelson was tough because we had eight in the box that play and he was isolated. Yes, Gay still failed on the play, but being on an island vs Aaron Rodgers is no easy task. Like I said, I'm not calling Gay a #1 CB. He definitely isn't.

I remember how much flack he got when Gronkowski scored against him down the seam. As if Gay had any chance against a guy six inches taller and 50 pounds heavier. The hate for William Gay has been around for a long time, so when something bad happens in his general vicinity, fans first point the finger on him.

[HollywoodSteel]

Chidi, I think he gets more noticed for always being in the vicinity of the big play for the opposing offense. Ike was struggling early on last year, so the criticism was a bit warranted; as with anyone else. As I said, the scenario is seemingly always the same and I can think of three examples right off the top of my head (I'm sure there are several more that may not be committed to memory due to us winning the game in spite of him):
1). 2009 (?) Bal @ Pit - Gives up the game winning TD despite being right there.
2). 2010 Pit @ GB (Super Bowl) - Play was nearly identical to the first one I mentioned.
3). Saturday night. I know it's only pre-season, but regarding his performance, it's the same.

We rarely hear anything about Ike because he tends to shut down his man and that's that. Last year, Keenan Lewis rarely drew any attention to himself because he did his job well. I've never had any confidence in William Gay to go unnoticed through a season.

The man can cover, but I don't see why he still gives up the big play as often as he does.

You are 100% right that both Ike and Keenan are better than Gay, and that's why we can only afford one of them.

But again, I get your frustration. I just see it as - how much frustration can you really throw at this situation of a #3 corner, who is about as good as you can expect from a #3 guy at his price? I'm worried about our corner situation too, but at this point I'm not sure I'd trade Gay for many other nickel corners in the league.

[NJarhead]

The problem is that we're working with the assumption that Gay was solely responsible for all those plays. It can be really hard to determine without knowing what is going on. Especially like Saturday when you're left with crappy TV angles to try and figure it out. Clark already admitted that the safeties were out of position on the play. Think that affected Gay some? Likely.

And we have left him in some really poor matchups throughout his career. Nelson was tough because we had eight in the box that play and he was isolated. Yes, Gay still failed on the play, but being on an island vs Aaron Rodgers is no easy task. Like I said, I'm not calling Gay a #1 CB. He definitely isn't.

I remember how much flack he got when Gronkowski scored against him down the seam. As if Gay had any chance against a guy six inches taller and 50 pounds heavier. The hate for William Gay has been around for a long time, so when something bad happens in his general vicinity, fans first point the finger on him.

Gronks a tough match up for him. The assignment could be discussed, but the scenario's I'm complaining about are those where he was right there and still gave up the reception. I know that against B-more and in the SB all he had to do was turn his head and make a play on the ball. Heck, even if he whiffed I'd probably remember it as a good play for the offense. But when he gives up the catch, in hindsight, it's as if he weren't even there.

I just hope he can handle the nickel this year....and that he never sees the outside.

- - - Updated - - -

You are 100% right that both Ike and Keenan are better than Gay, and that's why we can only afford one of them.

But again, I get your frustration. I just see it as - how much frustration can you really throw at this situation of a #3 corner, who is about as good as you can expect from a #3 guy at his price? I'm worried about our corner situation too, but at this point I'm not sure I'd trade Gay for many other nickel corners in the league.

For the record, no one will be more happy for him than me if he nails the nickel this year. On the other hand, no one will be more happy than me if he get's beat out by someone in camp....as unlikely as that is.


Appreciate you guys chatting with me about this.

[Chidi29]

Gronks a tough match up for him. The assignment could be discussed, but the scenario's I'm complaining about are those where he was right there and still gave up the reception. I know that against B-more and in the SB all he had to do was turn his head and make a play on the ball. Heck, even if he whiffed I'd probably remember it as a good play for the offense. But when he gives up the catch, in hindsight, it's as if he weren't even there.

I'm not trying to defend Gay as a great cover corner. He's not. He's pretty average. I said his strengths were his tackling and willingness to play the run. Decent blitzer, too. Sometimes QBs make good throws. Especially Aaron Rodgers and Eli Manning. I don't think Gay was that close to either the Nelson or Cruz TD. Cruz clearly had a step on him and Eli dropped it in the bucket. And I'm pretty sure Nelson beat him, too.

Also, looking over my notes from that Super Bowl, Gay was playing tight coverage on Nelson. Bad idea schematically to do that to him IMO. Because like I said, he is an average cover corner.

[steelreserve]

that shit you just described equates to a top ranked def ( top 5 ) in the NFL in nearly every season Lebeau has been in Pittsburgh ... most NFL cities would be ecstatic over such a ranking

There's a "real" top-5 defense and then there's a top-5 fantasy football defense, and we've had versions of both. I've seen more than one occasion when we've been "the NFL's top-ranked defense" or some such tagline, but gotten walked all over by the Raiders and been unable to put together back-to-back stops to save our lives, and in reality weren't even a top-15 defense. I've also seen times when we've been far and away the toughest defense in the league, almost impossible to score on unless the opponent gets some break that puts them deep in our territory, and while other teams have ranked above us we've obviously been the best. (In most of those years, we've won or at least seriously threatened for a championship.)

We always RANK highly, but sometimes there's teeth behind it, and others it's all talk and when the chips are down we shit the bed. Even with for all intents and purposes the same players on the field, we have the aggressive style of play that works, and the vanilla style that puts up respectable stats but is essentially just playing damage control all season. The two determining factors for which are 1) Whether Troy is 100% and 2) Whether Troy has to babysit some other DB who is either injured or incompetent. That's not panicking and it's not sky-is-falling; that's just the way it is with this defense.

I suppose since it's pretty rare to have three top-tier CBs (and if you do, one is leaving next season) we're always going to be in a situation like this, where we're one rolled ankle away from Gay or his equivalent being a starter. That's just the reality of things under the salary cap, and there's not much that can be done to fix it. It still is a precarious position to be in, though.

[polamalubeast]

The defense was very good after the terrible game against the raiders

[NJarhead]

I'm not trying to defend Gay as a great cover corner. He's not. He's pretty average. I said his strengths were his tackling and willingness to play the run. Decent blitzer, too. Sometimes QBs make good throws. Especially Aaron Rodgers and Eli Manning. I don't think Gay was that close to either the Nelson or Cruz TD. Cruz clearly had a step on him and Eli dropped it in the bucket. And I'm pretty sure Nelson beat him, too.

Also, looking over my notes from that Super Bowl, Gay was playing tight coverage on Nelson. Bad idea schematically to do that to him IMO. Because like I said, he is an average cover corner.

Hmm, maybe you're right. There was a height advantage and a damn good throw by Rodgers:



But he's always right there:


Not sure what happened here....caught lookin' it appears:


I was looking for examples of him being right on the WR when he made the catch. I actually found more where he was beat by 2 steps.

Well, it is what it is and I don't think we're in disagreement that he's not our #2 and perhaps that's a good thing. I wish him luck this year. Lord knows, I have nothing against him personally.

[fansince'76]

Not sure what happened here....caught lookin' it appears:

More like Torrey Smith getting away with a push off that would make Michael Irvin proud. See the 0:28-0:30 and 0:36-0:38 marks of this video:



But if we find ourselves in the position of having to start guys who were signed off the street the previous week to play CB due to injuries again this year, William Gay will be the least of our worries.

[Chidi29]

Again, if William Gay wasn't around, Isaiah Green would be our #3.

Though Hawthorne finally returned to practice today. So getting healthier there.

[steelreserve]

Again, if William Gay wasn't around, Isaiah Green would be our #3.

Though Hawthorne finally returned to practice today. So getting healthier there.

Yeah, we're all aware that the alternatives are even worse. I just wish Gay was better, that's all. Although then we probably couldn't afford him, so ... arrrrrrgh *fires shots in the air*

[LLT]

I don't agree with Foster on that list. Yeah he gave up a bad sack, but he's a proven veteran and his position isn't in dispute. Barring injury he will be the starting left guard for the Steelers this year, and in no way is that a bad thing.

Not saying that Foster isn't a good player. Not saying that his position is up for grabs. I'm saying that in THIS game he was slow off the snap and missed his assignment on at least three plays.

[Seven]

- Very glad William Gay is back.
- Bruce Gradkowski looked competent as expected.
- Jarvis Jones played well for his first pro snaps.
- Offensive line looked about how I expected.
- Running game looked about how I expected.
- Wanted to see more out of receivers not named Sanders.

- - - Updated - - -

That's really about it. I don't think we saw much that surprised us. I like the skills Wheaton showed but I didn't come out of that game feeling any more convinced he'll be a big time playmaker than I had been beforehand I guess.