what part of that is all we have to base Bell on at this point do you not understand ???
we can not list Bells pro stats he doesn't have any yet
really to the bold ???? because you never seen the Apollo landings does that mean they did not happen ?
because Hollyfield never got hit by Tyson prior to their first fight does that mean he could not take a punch from Tyson ( because nobody before him could ) ???
just because Dwyer did not have to block at GT does not mean he was not a capable pass blocker it only means you did not witness his blocking ability , lets take assumptions out of this and leave it to facts and the fact is you did not prequalify Bells blocking ability being better than Dwyers coming out of college you just said he was a better blocker and that is not true .... and even with the qualifier we do not know it to be true
ohhh noooo ....
what a load of conjecture ....
NOTHING points to what your claiming , nothing ....... statistically Dwyer had 100 less yards rushing in his college career than Bell , but Dwyer had 170 less touches ..Dwyer 6.2 YPC as a collegiate when EVERYBODY knew they where running because they RARELY threw the ball .... Bell 5 ypc and they did have some semblance of a passing attack ..... granted to grossly different systems so an apples to oranges comparison to some degree
I also would not say Dwyer has not been effective in the NFL the man averages 4ypc ... Bell at this point 0.0 ypc , lots of potential but the Titanic was loaded with potential too , until it is proven it is ONLY POTENTIAL
Dwins, I can't imagine that Dwyer has much of a leash this year. His opportunity to shine was last year. 2 downs and always looking to come out because he was winded was not a good sign. Early reports were that he was overweight, but he did deny it. I would think that the push is to have Bell start, so that the pressure can ease off of Colbert and his lack of recent draft success. So unless Bell is a victim of the Gilbert shuffle, he will be the starter.
I never made the argument that Bell wont win the Job , but I do not believe it will be handed to him by the coaching staff or the other RBs he will in deed have to earn that job , all I am saying is there is zero evidence substantiating that Bell is a superior talent to Dwyer at this point in time college stats do not show this and since Bell has yet to play a down in the NFL anointing him as the savior is premature at the very least
They drafted bell in the 2nd and tried to trade jonathan dwyer what more proof do you need that bell is a more talented back. If dwyer was more talented or even remotely effective they would not have tried to get rid of him, hes only 23 and has a small salary, why draft a guy you don't think is more talented than jonathan dwyer in the second round and then bring him to compete for your number one spot, are we shooting for the worst rushing attack in the league?
they passed on drafting Dan Marino in favor of keeping their own starter at QB that Cliff Stoudt must have been a real stud ( NOT ) .... see how your argument makes ZERO sense
dwyer was not nearly as bad as you would have us to believe ..... 4.0 YPC average in 2012 with a make shift line in front of him ( and in front of every back that played for us last year ) 623 yards with 156 touches ..
not all world but not bottom of the barrel like you suggest
these guys where also second round picks and where not more talented then the men they where drafted to replace
Limas Sweed
Bryant McFadden
Ricardo Colclough
Alonzo Jackson
Scott Shields
Jeremy Staat
Will Blackwell
Steven Conley
Last edited by Dwinsgames; 07-26-2013 at 03:27 PM.
Who was the more talented WR....Hines Ward or Troy Edwards? Because after Hines Ward was drafted in 1996 ... Troy Edwards was selected in the first round of the 1999 Draft (With Burress being drafted in 2000)
Obviously the FO was considering "upgrading" the WR position....over a WR who ended up being a future HOFer.
"I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"
-- Jack Lambert --
"Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Can't Lose"~Rest In Peace HometownGal~
as a foot note none of what I have said is meant to be a knock on Bell and anyone who paid any attention at all to the draft part of the forum knows I like Bell and early in the draft process ( the months leading into the draft ) had him on my " wish list " and in my early Steelers Mock ( but not as a second round pick ) for me he was a middle of the third round to late 4th round value and nothing has changed in my opinion since then since he has not played a lick of football since his last game at MS and that is where 99.9% of my evaluation comes from not the combine ( or as I call it the annual poke and prod )
Only problem is ward was drafted in 1998 Edwards in 99 the steelers where not trying to replace ward as ward only played sparingly in 98 with 15 catches. Also I do not think we are in danger of jonathan dwyer becoming a future hall of famer, he's just not that good, he doesn't provide us with a consistent attack, he's not a homerun hitter, he's not a pass catcher why wouldn't you want the young talent to take over? You draft talent if they don't pan out on the field then that's the risk you take but you don't take high round draft picks and sit them behind a guy like jonathan dwyer,there is nothing to gain there.
Did they know any of that after one year for Hines? Point is we have to be patient and see what happens. Dwyer doesn't have many failed years to look back on. He is young too and very likely has not reached his maximum potential. Plus, how long has it been since a rookie running back was really success for Pittsburgh? I can't think of one. You also have to consider Redman so I'm just waiting to see what happens. I guess I'm not trying to disagree with you, just not sure where all of you confidence is in a rookie. You aren't saying things like "i think" or "in my opinion". You are acting like you are stating a fact that Bell will be amazing. We just can't say that yet.
To the bolded part. I do. But what we are saying is his rookie year might not be that time quite yet. But, who knows? I hope he rushes for 1000 yards! But the truth is, I don't know if any of our backs is capable of that this early.
"Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Can't Lose"~Rest In Peace HometownGal~
that's the point with dwyer he's been in the league 3 years this will be his 4th he only has 181 carries, there must be a reason he cant get the ball, there must be a reason they tried to trade him in the offseason. You don't draft a guy in the second round if you have a young guy you expect to be your future. There is no point in putting your second round back whos unproven behind a guy who's been unable to prove himself. If we were looking for dwyer to reach his potential while hes young that means he would be our back for years to come, why draft a second round back up?
Ya I agree but my point is why sit the unproven guy in favor of a guy we know is not that good. If bell was coming in behind a mediocre veteran then I would say ya let him sit and learn but that's not the situation, our running game sucked last season so we not only drafted a back we switched our entire to scheme to the exact scheme he had at Michigan.
True. I wasn't sure about the pick when there were still a few backs on the board. Lacy from Bama was one for example.
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You may be 100% correct steeldawg. Your points are all valid. We still have to wait and see though. People have surprised in camp before and maybe a determined Dwyer will do that? Let's not dwell on the past and just look to the future.
May the best back (this camp and preseason) win!
Michigan State by the way.
"Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Can't Lose"~Rest In Peace HometownGal~
Things we know for a fact about Dwyer in the NFL:
- Jonathan Dwyer was the best pass protecting RB in the NFL last year. Interestingly, Redman finished number two last year.
- Dwyer can put the smack down on LB's when running the ball. Last year I watched him literally line up a LB while carrying and drill him, knocking straight down, then Dwyer continued to carry for another 5-7 yards.
- Dwyer can sub off the bench and still have a good game blocking and running.
- He has the ability to produce 100-yard games.
- Last two years, he's had 9 games with over 10 touches a game, and has 3 100 yard games. That's a 1-3 ratio in a time when Steelers running backs seldom had 100 yard games.
Things we know for a fact about Bell in the NFL
- He was drafted in the second round
- he made it to training camp
- he ran well in shorts in the spring.
Bell may or may not be the starting running back. Don't forget, we are now a pass first team, and will remain that way. There's very little doubt that unless Bell can measure up to the number 1 and 2 pass blocking RBs in the NFL, he's not going to be seeing much of the field. Especially not when both back have shown that they are capable of running the ball. Sure, they're not home run hitters (Of course, Dwyer's long is a 76 yard run in 2011 and a 34 in 2012), but they can run the ball.
Your talking in circles again.
Nobody on this site was hoping harder than I was, that Bell would be drafted by the Steelers...but you cant make the argument that He is better than Dwyer when he hasnt played one NFL game. Thats the point of the Edwards/Ward example. On paper (and college highlight reels) Edwards was by far the superior WR and was obviously drafted higher than Ward.
Do the vast majority of us think that Bell might be our feature back? Yes.
Do we think your argument for him being the feature back based on his college resume and draft placement is shallow and absurd? Yes.
"I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"
-- Jack Lambert --
Lol my argument is not just based on his college performance its also based on the fact that dwyer was at the top of a rushing attack which was one of the worst in a long time. Yes I expect a second round pick to start over one of our worst rushing attacks, if not then whats the point of taking a high pick at rb. The steelers obviously think that bell is a better back coming out school than dwyer is right now otherwise why even take bell? All you have to do is look at the fact dwyer is 23yrs old and the steelers used a high round pick on a running back, that tells you all you have to know about dwyer. As far as the Edwards example who cares, I can point to A.j. green, rg III, calvin Johnson, larry fitzgerald, Adrian Peterson, .......on and on and on All early draft picks all immediate starters all successful.
apples to oranges again ....
1) none of those guys where second round picks that most believed would be 3rd round picks
2) none of those guys where drafted by the Steelers
3) nobody other than Bells Mom ( and you ) would even put him in the same class as the guys listed above at this juncture
he made the comparison to Edwards who was a first round pick so I showed that other high draft picks whos college talent translated directly to the nfl that's why they are taken as high round draft picks, teams do not waste their high picks on guys that sit the bench especially sitting the bench behind one of the worst rushing attacks.
Ziggy Hood no starts as a rookie
Cam Heyward no starts as a rookie
Troy Polamalu sat a good portion of his rookie year and no starts ( Brent " burnt" Alexander and Mike Logan where the starters ) hardly Troys equals
Timmon sat his rookie year no starts as a rookie .... Farrior and Foote got the starts
Worilds sat the majority of his time here no starts as a rookie pretty much anyone with a pulse got reps in front of him
Woodley sat the vast majority of his rookie year no starts
all first or second round picks others got on the field as starters but only because of injuries forcing them onto the field , Ben , Gilbert per examples further proving your argument invalid ....
just like this one did that you chose to ignore in our back n forth earlier in the thread .....
All defense and guys coming into a complicated zone blitz scheme and entering a top ranked defense, with established starters in front of them, situation completely different. Your making it too much about draft position, the reason bells draft position is important is because of the guy hes going to replace. Dwyer is still young if the steelers felt he was a starting caliber rb then there is no point in taking a high draft pick rb.
"Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Can't Lose"~Rest In Peace HometownGal~
why not just admit it when your wrong ...this job will have to be won , not handed to him and it is no gimme he will win the job
was Ben a defensive player ? why did it take injury for him to get on the field ???
was Gilbert a defensive player too when he was drafted ?
whats the excuse for these guys who clearly as second round picks the Steelers where looking to upgrade yet these guys not only failed to win the job but they where all out of the league in short order with exception to McFadden who had really just 1 decent year in his career as a starter
these guys where also second round picks and where not more talented then the men they where drafted to replace
Limas Sweed
Bryant McFadden
Ricardo Colclough
Alonzo Jackson
Scott Shields
Jeremy Staat
Will Blackwell
Steven Conley
Yes. I think Ben has been a little more successful then Tommy Maddox. Yet, Tommy was the starter and it took an injury in order for Ben to play. We took Ben 11th overall and still Tommy was the starter, even though he was nothing special at all and we were 6-10 with him the year before we took Ben.
"Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Can't Lose"~Rest In Peace HometownGal~
For every Adrian Peterson you throw out...I can throw a Rashaan Salaam...Tommy Vardel ...and Ki-Jana Carter.
Your argument is just incredibly miopic.
There are only two side here. Those who hope that Bell does well but appreciates Dwyers abilities....and you trying to bash Dwyer with no facts other than that we drafted a RB in the 2nd round.
"I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"
-- Jack Lambert --
a list of RBs drafted in the first 2 rounds the past 5 years that did NOTHING to validate the selection point starting in 2011 so I essentially am giving 1 year backs a pass ( Bell will be in his first year but you think he is the man without having 1 rep under his belt at this level ) .....
Mark Ingram
Ryan Williams
Shane Vereen
Mikel Leshoure
Daniel Thomas
Jahvid Best
Dexter McCluster
Toby Gerhart
Montario Hardesty
Knowshon Moreno
Donald Brown
Beanie Wells
Felix Jones
Rashard Mendenhall
Kenny Irons
Chris Henry
Brian Leonard
Brandon Jackson
those are just the guys drafted in the first 2 rounds that at the time they where drafted the organizations had very high expectations for and where assumed to be the future many never got 1 start in the league ( this list only dates from 2007 to 2011 first 2 round so a 5 year span excluding last years rookie class ) but all failed to live up to their draft status ...
Being a high pick does not mean you are going to automatically be successful
"I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"
-- Jack Lambert --