Bill to allow gay marriage in Pennsylvania

[steeldawg]

And I think that a good amount of it is because there's something deeper down going on within many who are gay, and both their sexual orientation and suicidal aspirations are a result of it. I am not saying everyone, or even a vast majority, but a good number of them.

The ugly little secret that many don't want to talk about is that past traumatic experience, especially sexual experience, has a lot of lasting consequences. Let me illustrate for you. I was counselling someone a long, LONG time ago (story changed enough that no one would ever be able to guess who it is, though this was years before I was ever on this board anyway). That person was gay. S/he told me that the older brother/sister tied them down to a bed and let the friends take their turns at the person. Mom and dad never believed that it was happening, and it happened a few times.

Now, this person is gay/lesbian. Honestly, my first comment back to them was, "of course you are, and if I went through all that, I probably would be too. What else do you do when the two closest people to you of the opposite sex, your own family, destroy your trust in that sex so thoroughly?" By the end, that person could absolutely see the choices that were made, were made based off the incidents that happend as a child/teenager, and NOT out of "nature."

In short, it falls into the same overall bin as sex-workers. You'd be amazed at the vast majority of sex workers that report sexual abuse of one type or another when they were young. It messes up sexual develop something fierce, involves levels of the psyche so deeply that no one can really understand it, and ends up sending people down all types of paths (hence, why rape victims will sometimes look to almost be nymphomaniacs within a few months).

All of that to say, it is simplistic in the extreme to lay the blame on "society" and "religion," when there are so many other factors involved. The biggest problem, IMO, is that there's such a rush to say "it's okay and there's nothing wrong with you," that for those who there actually IS something wrong with, they're being driven further into their problems.

And no, I don't believe the above equals all homosexuality. There are some people for whom the above is true, and others for whom it is not.

Nothing is equal to everyone, the point is gays are not born feeling guilty about being gay that is taught from people in society and religions telling them that there Is something wrong with them. Also there are plenty of straight people who have been molested or raped, there is no proof at all that a rape changes a persons sexual orientation, It might cause a mistrust in others from the opposite sex but it certainly does not create an attraction to your same sex. Even if you wanted to go that route, rape and sex workers are products of society people are not born raped or born a sex worker, people however are born gay.

[Count Steeler]

Nothing is equal to everyone, the point is gays are not born feeling guilty about being gay that is taught from people in society and religions telling them that there Is something wrong with them. Also there are plenty of straight people who have been molested or raped, there is no proof at all that a rape changes a persons sexual orientation, It might cause a mistrust in others from the opposite sex but it certainly does not create an attraction to your same sex. Even if you wanted to go that route, rape and sex workers are products of society people are not born raped or born a sex worker, people however are born gay.

Gulp. The kool-aid has been drunk. You who poo-poo the spiritual world try to explain away our world, solely with the physical. I have remained out of this whole thread for a reason. Many issues today are spiritual ones, not solely physical.

I have said my 2 cents and I will refrain from posting further in this thread.

[GoSlash27]

I have a very clear idea of exactly what I think marriage should be. If you can't understand, or rather don't see meaning in my version of it, that's fine. But Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean someone else's "judgement call" is invalidated. By that token I shouldn't believe in gay rights, since I don't have a "clear understanding" of why people are gay or what "purpose" being gay serves. But I suppose a difference between the two circumstances will be fabricated.

Hit a nerve?
The only reason I don't have a clear idea of what you think marriage should be is because you haven't expressed it. It was a valid question when you asked me and it's a valid question now, but nobody's gonna put a gun to your head and *force* you to answer it.
But you know... maybe it *is* me, so I'd invite anyone else to review what Seven has posted thus far and tell me what he believes the purpose of marriage is.

[GoSlash27]

Nothing is equal to everyone, the point is gays are not born feeling guilty about being gay that is taught from people in society and religions telling them that there Is something wrong with them. Also there are plenty of straight people who have been molested or raped, there is no proof at all that a rape changes a persons sexual orientation, It might cause a mistrust in others from the opposite sex but it certainly does not create an attraction to your same sex. Even if you wanted to go that route, rape and sex workers are products of society people are not born raped or born a sex worker, people however are born gay.

This isn't actually true. There are plenty of studies that show causation from childhood sexual trauma, although that's certainly not the only way people end up gay. And keep in mind that most women don't have a strong sexual preference either way.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300
http://www.goofyfootpress.com/links/pdfs/Bailey.pdf

[steeldawg]

This isn't actually true. There are plenty of studies that show causation from childhood sexual trauma, although that's certainly not the only way people end up gay. And keep in mind that most women don't have a strong sexual preference either way.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300
http://www.goofyfootpress.com/links/pdfs/Bailey.pdf

Those studies in no way show that sexual orientation was changed to molestation it only shows that more gays report being molested in order to prove something like that we would have to know for sure that they where straight before the occurrence.

[Dwinsgames]

from the Steeldawg school of thinking ...

I will post links , thoughts or whatever I like and pass it on as FACT.

I will glance at and pick apart any link posted or comment made by anyone else that does not go along with my line of thinking and never give it a second thought ....

I will degrade others opinions and beliefs to the point of calling them fairy tales and mock them with Santa Claus references even though I have no proof of what I am saying nor a better explanation that comes along with tangible evidence

I will then be diligent to make sure I am the last one to post in the thread come hell or high water after all whomever gets the last word is clearly the winner of the argument / debate

If I do all these things in every thread I post to I will clearly be the superior poster and resident all knowing one on every subject

if we all would learn from the above we too could be just like steeldawg ....

[GoSlash27]

from the Steeldawg school of thinking ...



if we all would learn from the above we too could be just like steeldawg ....

... And we were doing so well, too...

Could we all *please* try not to make this personal? There's really no call for it and it doesn't help the discussion at all.

[Dwinsgames]

... And we were doing so well, too...

Could we all *please* try not to make this personal? There's really no call for it and it doesn't help the discussion at all.

maybe it is me ?

but it seems like everyone else's opinion that does not match up regardless of the links provided that support the logic or the thousands of years of religious practice and teaching is all adamantly discounted and belittled because it does not coincide with his logic or line of thinking ...

If I am wrong I sincerely apologize but upon review of this thread I do not believe I am wrong... however I may be somewhat biased

[GoSlash27]

Those studies in no way show that sexual orientation was changed to molestation it only shows that more gays report being molested in order to prove something like that we would have to know for sure that they where straight before the occurrence.

If you read the study, you'll see that they did, in fact, self- identify as "straight" prior to the occurrence.

Keeping in mind the attitudes I've show here about the gay community, even *I've* got to tell you that you're under a lot of misperceptions about the reality on the ground. It's not even a case of you being misled, but rather your refusal to accept anything as fact that conflicts with your ideology.
I highly recommend getting acquainted with gay folks and asking *them* about these subjects.

- - - Updated - - -

maybe it is me ?

but it seems like everyone else's opinion that does not match up regardless of the links provided that support the logic or the thousands of years of religious practice and teaching is all adamantly discounted and belittled because it does not coincide with his logic or line of thinking ...

If I am wrong I sincerely apologize but upon review of this thread I do not believe I am wrong... however I may be somewhat biased

I certainly believe that you're not the only one
All I'm asking (and all I can do is ask) is that we all attack the argument rather than the poster. Otherwise we end up with a lot of flaming, noise, bent feelings, and (eventually) a locked thread.

[Seven]

but it seems like everyone else's opinion that does not match up regardless of the links provided that support the logic or the thousands of years of religious practice and teaching is all adamantly discounted and belittled because it does not coincide with his logic or line of thinking ...

Critical thinking is a lost art, Dwins. People believe what they're told and treat their own opinion as infallible fact.

[steeldawg]

If you read the study, you'll see that they did, in fact, self- identify as "straight" prior to the occurrence.

Keeping in mind the attitudes I've show here about the gay community, even *I've* got to tell you that you're under a lot of misperceptions about the reality on the ground. It's not even a case of you being misled, but rather your refusal to accept anything as fact that conflicts with your ideology.
I highly recommend getting acquainted with gay folks and asking *them* about these subjects.

- - - Updated - - -



I certainly believe that you're not the only one
All I'm asking (and all I can do is ask) is that we all attack the argument rather than the poster. Otherwise we end up with a lot of flaming, noise, bent feelings, and (eventually) a locked thread.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-men-are-raped
http://www.aftersilence.org/male-survivors.php
http://resurrectionafterrape.org/media/MaleSurvivor.pdf

[steeldawg]

This isn't actually true. There are plenty of studies that show causation from childhood sexual trauma, although that's certainly not the only way people end up gay. And keep in mind that most women don't have a strong sexual preference either way.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300
http://www.goofyfootpress.com/links/pdfs/Bailey.pdf

Also slash I read both of your links and maybe im missing where the victims identitfied as straight before an assault and are now gay?

[steeldawg]

Gulp. The kool-aid has been drunk. You who poo-poo the spiritual world try to explain away our world, solely with the physical. I have remained out of this whole thread for a reason. Many issues today are spiritual ones, not solely physical.

I have said my 2 cents and I will refrain from posting further in this thread.

Your world? yes I choose to explain real world issues with real world information, Im not channeling spirit guides or gods , or reading religious text to shape my opinion of the world we live in. If you want to use the spirit world to explain things go right ahead why the hell is it so important to you people that I lend all that hocus pocus any credibility. That's the very reason measures where taken to make sure one persons beleifs and superstitions didn't trump the legal rights of everyone.

[X-Terminator]

Your world? yes I choose to explain real world issues with real world information, Im not channeling spirit guides or gods , or reading religious text to shape my opinion of the world we live in. If you want to use the spirit world to explain things go right ahead why the hell is it so important to you people that I lend all that hocus pocus any credibility. That's the very reason measures where taken to make sure one persons beleifs and superstitions didn't trump the legal rights of everyone.

No, the problem is that you constantly belittle people of faith, and it pisses them off.

That clear enough for you?

[smokin3000gt]

No, the problem is that you constantly belittle people of faith, and it pisses them off.

That clear enough for you?

Good luck getting through that skull of his. He's just going to come back and argue that he doesn't piss people off or only certain people for certain reasons. Then spend the next 10 post after that still arguing about the people he pisses off. Personally I wish he would just piss off and find another message board. It's one thing to have a healthy discussion about different topics but to argue every fucking point about everything is another.

[steeldawg]

No, the problem is that you constantly belittle people of faith, and it pisses them off.

That clear enough for you?

I belittle people!!????? Have you read some of the posts that get aimed at me???? I don't single people out on here for personal attack, I pick apart religions and then I get hit with personal attacks.

[GoSlash27]

steeldawg,

Also slash I read both of your links and maybe im missing where the victims identitfied as straight before an assault and are now gay?

It's right there in the Tomeo study.
Abstract:

In research with 942 nonclinical adult participants, gay men and lesbian women reported a significantly higher rate of childhood molestation than did heterosexual men and women. Forty-six percent of the homosexual men in contrast to 7% of the heterosexual men reported homosexual molestation. Twenty-two percent of lesbian women in contrast to 1% of heterosexual women reported homosexual molestation. This research is apparently the first survey that has reported substantial homosexual molestation of girls. Suggestions for future research were offered.

The questions:

1. Do you regard yourself as predominantly a heterosexual person or predominantly a gay/lesbian person?
2. If predominantly of heterosexual orientation, at what age did you begin to regard yourself as heterosexual?
3. If predominantly of homosexual orientation, at what age did you begin to regard yourself as homosexual?
4. Before you were 16 years old, did you ever have sexual contact with a woman or girl 5 or more years older than yourself and at least 16 years of age? (YES NO)
5. IF YES, at what age did this first occur?
6. What was your relationship to the person with whom this sexual contact occurred?
7. Before you were 16 years old, did you ever have sexual contact with a man or boy 5 or more years older than yourself and at least 16 years of age? (YES NO)
8. IF YES, at what age did this first occur?
9. What was your relationship to the person with whom this sexual contact occurred?

The conclusion:

Sixty-eight percent of the present homosexual male participants and 38% of the present homosexual female participants (68 and 36%, respectively, if including just the homosexual fair participants) did not identify as homosexual until after the molestation. This suggests that if molestation resulted in homosexuality, this phenomenon occurs in a greater proportion of male homosexuals.

But again... it doesn't take scientific studies to understand this stuff. All you have to do is actually *know* gay people. They'll tell you all about what it's really like.
HTHs
-Slashy

[steeldawg]

steeldawg,

It's right there in the Tomeo study.
Abstract:

The questions:

The conclusion:


But again... it doesn't take scientific studies to understand this stuff. All you have to do is actually *know* gay people. They'll tell you all about what it's really like.
HTHs
-Slashy

http://wthrockmorton.com/2009/06/a-m...ity-revisited/

And slash I know many gay people I don't know why you think their lives are full of hardship and abuse.

[GoSlash27]

And slash I know many gay people I don't know why you think their lives are full of hardship and abuse.

1) Yeah, sure ya do.
2) I never said their lives are "full of" anything. It's just not the fairytale of sparkles 'n' unicorn rainbows *you* make it out to be.

[steeldawg]

1) Yeah, sure ya do.
2) I never said their lives are "full of" anything. It's just not the fairytale of sparkles 'n' unicorn rainbows *you* make it out to be.

I didn't make it out to be anything, If anything I was saying how society and religions makes it hard on gay people, but that doesn't mean that they hate who they are. I will in fact be attending a gay wedding in October and I will be sure that everyone on this board gets pictures.

[GoSlash27]

I didn't make it out to be anything, If anything I was saying how society and religions makes it hard on gay people, but that doesn't mean that they hate who they are. I will in fact be attending a gay wedding in October and I will be sure that everyone on this board gets pictures.

If that was all that you said, nobody would've disagreed. Reviewing your posts from page 3 on.... not at all what you said.

[steeldawg]

If that was all that you said, nobody would've disagreed. Reviewing your posts from page 3 on.... not at all what you said.

Wha?t nothing I said on page 3 even inferred that gay life is perfect.

[GoSlash27]

Yeah... I'm not going to get into an argument with you about the reality that anybody can see just by paging back and looking for themselves.
If we're in agreement that their lives aren't perfect and they have troubles just like all the rest of us, I'll settle for that.

[steeldawg]

Yeah... I'm not going to get into an argument with you about the reality that anybody can see just by paging back and looking for themselves.
If we're in agreement that their lives aren't perfect and they have troubles lust like all the rest of us, I'll settle for that.

I already paged back there is nothing there If anyone else sees a quote from me on that page that says anything to the effect that that gays don't have problems or that their lives are perfect or glitter and rainbows from page 3 please post it because I don't see it. Of course they have troubles just like the rest of us they are human beings.

[Dwinsgames]

No, the problem is that you constantly belittle people of faith, and it pisses them off.

That clear enough for you?

this

[Count Steeler]

If that was all that you said, nobody would've disagreed. Reviewing your posts from page 3 on.... not at all what you said.

I already paged back there is nothing there If anyone else sees a quote from me on that page that says anything to the effect that that gays don't have problems or that their lives are perfect or glitter and rainbows from page 3 please post it because I don't see it. Of course they have troubles just like the rest of us they are human beings.

Slash is saying from page 3 on, which means page 3, 4, 5, 6 etc..

Hope that helps.

[steeldawg]

Slash is saying from page 3 on, which means page 3, 4, 5, 6 etc..

Hope that helps.

Ok post where I said that in the entire thread

[Count Steeler]

If that was all that you said, nobody would've disagreed. Reviewing your posts from page 3 on.... not at all what you said.

Yeah... I'm not going to get into an argument with you about the reality that anybody can see just by paging back and looking for themselves.
If we're in agreement that their lives aren't perfect and they have troubles just like all the rest of us, I'll settle for that.

Ok post where I said that in the entire thread

Up to Slash. Personally, not that interested. Just didn't want to see another page of your denials when you had not understood what Slash had said.

[Dwinsgames]

[fansince'76]

"Their whole society is based on a kind of a fagdom."

Gotta love Archie.

Used to love it when he'd bring up his service in "WWII...the big one" during arguments with Meathead as well.