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Thread: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    I do. I've got patience out the wazoo (normally). It's not something I'd do...but who the hell am I to stop someone else from doing it? Ya know? Nobody seems to want to ban pornos with a dude doing a bunch of women (or vice versa), so why not let a bunch of them get married and do it? Doesn't bother my life any.

    First off, let me say that me saying "legislating morality" is a wrong phrase to use. Morals are different among different groups of people. Some people think rock music and porn are morally wrong. Some do not. Listening to rock or watching porn are not hurting anyone though...like two men or two women having sex or having a relationship are not hurting anyone, not physically at least. Pedophilia is grown adults hurting children. It's not in the same category as having sex before marriage, being gay, smoking pot, masturbating, listening to KISS or swearing. It just isn't. Anyone who says it is, is just trying to stretch their point to meet their argument. They just aren't the same and should not be argued as such.
    Rock and Porn can be debated all the way around. That is for sure.(When you're talking people's morals)

    Quote Originally Posted by Preacher View Post
    I do however, shiver at what I consider the activist courts. Everyone person had the same right, to marry a person of the opposite sex. Whether a person wants to use that right or not, is their personal decision. No person had a right to marry the same sex. Whether a person wanted or didn't want to do that, was a personal decision. Thus, it was equal. This is not, in any way, shape, or form, an issue of civil rights. Gay couples are offered all the of the same civil protection in a civil union. The tax code should also be amended for civil unions (though it won't be, because the gov't wants more and more of your tax money). Therefore, there is no denial of civil rights, IMO. Sadly however, White American Christendom (as opposed to actual Christians) have brought this on, and especially the "white christian south". When elected officials, police, etc. were actually violating civil rights (anyone remember blacks sitting at the back of the bus, drinking from small, corroded drinking fountains, get food at the back of a restaurant- those ACTUAL civil rights that were violated), the american public, the American church, and the senate and house, all turned a blind eye until the courts were forced to rule on the issue. Give the courts an inch of authority, and they'll take a mile. After all, just look at how the interstate commerce clause has been completely abused.

    My problem however, is as an American citizen. Not as a Christian. It will only become my problem as a Christian if the courts 1. force me to officiate ceremonies of gay couples, 2. Force me to open the doors to the church building for gay weddings, 3. Try to control what I say from the pulpit on the issue, or 4. if my church, my association, or my denomination moves to legitimating homosexual marriage within the church.

    Oh yeah, a word of warning to all those who are cheering this decision as a strike against the church-- In the 20th century, the homosexual community and the Christian community were linked quite intimately in one way: Whenever persecution began on one group, it quickly went to the other. Germany, Russia, China, N. Korea, Iran, etc. etc. Be careful what you celebrate, because there is a reason these two communities are linked as such. The very victories you are celebrating today, may be the foundation of the very things you are most fearful of in the future. And if the courts gain more and more of the authority- there is no one to stop it.
    Which is one more reason why I say that gays have the same rights, they just don't like their options given to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    This same argument could have been used to justify keeping interracial marriages illegal.

    Every one person had the same right to marry a person of the same skin color. Whether a person wants to use that right or not is their personal decision. No person had a right to marry out of their race. Whether a person wanted or didn't want to do that, was a personal decision. Thus, it was equal.
    How can that be justifiable? There has been no proven problem with an interracial marriage. In fact, it has been proven to be very beneficial to allow interracial. The same hasn't been proven yet for gay marriage YET.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    You are speaking of persecution though. Nobody here has persecuted the church. I for one just want churches to do what they do and the government to do what it does...separately. Gay marriage has been legal in other countries for some time now, and it hasn't destroyed the church in the slightest. All decisions were made through the courts there as well. Denmark would be the biggest hotbed for persecution if this were true. It's not though...it's just Denmark.
    And those of us who oppose it haven't been persecuting them either. Just because we disagree with one's lifestyle doesn't mean automatically we're persecuting it.

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    How would pedophilia have to be excepted both people have to be of legal age to marry. Minors cannot enter into legally binding contracts such as marriage. And by that arguement what would be the difference from marriage now to pedophillia if a man wanted to marry a 12 yr old girl? Gay marriage is following all of the other laws governing marriage except the fact that its two people of the same sex.
    Not really. Minors can marry at age 16 in some states if their parents sign off on the marriage. It's just not as common to see happening.

    Also for those who do think that love is required as part of a marriage contract, that isn't the case. The 4 Most Basic Requirements to certify a marriage are 1.) 2 Consenting Adults, 2.) 1 Witness on each side, 3.) A Celebrant, and 4.) A Promise. The Promise doesn't mean you have to love them. It can mean anything such as taking care of one person financially etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelersinCA View Post
    I don't know why they will appeal it, they put on the shittiest case I've seen.
    Because they're that hell bent on protecting marriage as one man one woman. That's only reason why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer View Post
    Gay marriage has nothing to do with religion. Marriage is now a legal institution, not a religious one. It's a legal one because we have to go down to the courthouse to get a marriage license. The courthouse is a government building of the judicial branch of government. Ever wonder how athiests get married? They don’t go to church. They dont ask a priest. They go to the courthouse and get married by a judge or a Justice of the Peace.

    So now that God has created AIDS to kill the homosexuals they want you to pay for it
    and they want marriage benefits for their AIDS and insurance claims to be paid by the taxpayers too. I bet that's a lot what this is all about.
    Also if you consider the fact that the govt. also gives out taxbreaks for each time a couple has a child(By Birth I know, as for an adoption, I have to check that), yeah it has become somewhat of a govt. institution to.
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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by BnG_Hevn View Post
    I don't think people oppose it just for morals. When it comes to morals, who gives a rat's arse about who marries who.

    I think the kicker is in health care and how costs will go up. Homosexuals will get married "for the insurance" which is what affects the general public, or at least those that pay for health insurance.

    This country is failing faster and faster every day.
    So you think homosexuality is the downfall of the insurance system, but smoking, fast food, and alcohol...no problems there?

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMan786 View Post

    How can that be justifiable? There has been no proven problem with an interracial marriage. In fact, it has been proven to be very beneficial to allow interracial. The same hasn't been proven yet for gay marriage YET.
    It's not justifiable...that's the point. There are no proven problems with interracial marriage and there are no proven problems with gay marriage. Nobody's blown up Denmark or Norway or Sweden or Canada yet over it. These countries have gone on just fine since allowing gay marriage. The first same sex marriage laws were passed in the Netherlands 10 years ago...they don't have any problems. Everybody didn't turn gay or anything.

    My point with this was, people who were opposed to interracial marriage could have (and maybe did) use this same argument to further their point. It would have made as much sense then as it does now.



    And those of us who oppose it haven't been persecuting them either. Just because we disagree with one's lifestyle doesn't mean automatically we're persecuting it.
    I never said anybody was persecuting gays. I was responding to Preacher saying that (and I thought he was referring to people in this thread) some were celebrating this victory as a slap in the face to the church and that persecution of the church would arise from this. I was never trying to say that I think gays are being persecuted by the church.

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    A lot of this debate seems to be going in circles, and from where I stand not many of the reasons against gay marriage make a lot of sense...to me at least. It seems that people are ok with homosexuals playing house, but don't want to actually afford them the same benefits that straight couples enjoy. SiCA said it perfectly...separate but equal seems to be the norm in this thinking. You can't just tell people that the way they live is perfectly fine and then turn around and tell them that they can't reap the same benefits as others because of their lifestyle. It's just not right. You can't have it both ways.

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    Can't we just skip the 9th Circuit and go straight to the Supreme Court?
    I'm with you on that one, Wallace.
    Stay classy, leftnutz

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelersinCA View Post
    I'd be surprised if this is even appealed. The Proponents put on such a lackluster case, I can't find one thing that could be appealed. I'm still reading the opinion though. http://www.scribd.com/doc/35374462/Prop-8-Ruling-FINAL
    Oh, it will be appealed. Bank on it.
    Stay classy, leftnutz

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    Preacher...I respect you a lot. This just feels like reaching to me though. I understand your worry to a point, but I just can't get behind it. I'm sorry that some refugees were refused asylum and that some gay people have been harassing church services, but it's a real stretch to start comparing it to the beginnings of persecution of Christians.

    I can understand how you think that gays and Christians being persecuted correlates alone...but realize this, when these kind of EXTREME persecutions take place (and you'll know when they take place), I would think it would be hard to say one way or the other what kind of persecution started it...and I doubt it would begin and end with the persecution of gays and Christians. I doubt as members of the human race, whoever was doing the persecution would limit themselves so.
    Please understand, I am not saying that the church in AMerica has been persecuted yet... (well, since the late 1700's. There WAS persecution before that, when we were still colonies. That is actually what led two Baptist preachers to write a letter to Jefferson requesting separation of church and state). I am stating however, and I believe you can see it in every post I have given, that it is shortsighted for people to get excited about a smack against the church on any legal grounds precisely BECAUSE of the correlation of the church and homosexuality concerning persecution. The seeds planted today is the harvest of tomorrow. That is all I am saying.

    Each of those links shown is just that, seeds. Planted by the very people that will be harmed as much as Christians in the future when persecution does begin. And it will. Maybe not in my lifetime, but I would bet my life that it will by turn of the next century.


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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Preacher View Post
    Please understand, I am not saying that the church in AMerica has been persecuted yet... (well, since the late 1700's. There WAS persecution before that, when we were still colonies. That is actually what led two Baptist preachers to write a letter to Jefferson requesting separation of church and state). I am stating however, and I believe you can see it in every post I have given, that it is shortsighted for people to get excited about a smack against the church on any legal grounds precisely BECAUSE of the correlation of the church and homosexuality concerning persecution. The seeds planted today is the harvest of tomorrow. That is all I am saying.

    Each of those links shown is just that, seeds. Planted by the very people that will be harmed as much as Christians in the future when persecution does begin. And it will. Maybe not in my lifetime, but I would bet my life that it will by turn of the next century.
    Unfortunately, persecution will always happen. That is the nature of man (as we know it). But to say that allowing gay marriage means the majority of people think it a slap in the face to the Church (any church) just isn't so.

    The seeds of persecution don't need to be planted in man...they are just there. Groups of people will often persecute those things that they feel are threatening to their way of life or things they see as wrong and/or immoral. It's been happening since the beginning of recorded history, and I doubt it will stop in our lifetimes. This does not mean that people who support gay marriages are hoping to one day overthrow the church. This is also not a good argument to support bans on gay marriage.

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    It's not justifiable...that's the point. There are no proven problems with interracial marriage and there are no proven problems with gay marriage. Nobody's blown up Denmark or Norway or Sweden or Canada yet over it. These countries have gone on just fine since allowing gay marriage. The first same sex marriage laws were passed in the Netherlands 10 years ago...they don't have any problems. Everybody didn't turn gay or anything.

    My point with this was, people who were opposed to interracial marriage could have (and maybe did) use this same argument to further their point. It would have made as much sense then as it does now.

    I never said anybody was persecuting gays. I was responding to Preacher saying that (and I thought he was referring to people in this thread) some were celebrating this victory as a slap in the face to the church and that persecution of the church would arise from this. I was never trying to say that I think gays are being persecuted by the church.
    There have been no benefits strong enough to prove that gay marriage is beneficial though. That is the problem.

    That wasn't directed at you SteelCityMom. You are one of those that I don't see accusing anyone of persecuting gays. That was part of my response to Preacher, and nor was I throwing him or anyone on this forum in that group

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    A lot of this debate seems to be going in circles, and from where I stand not many of the reasons against gay marriage make a lot of sense...to me at least. It seems that people are ok with homosexuals playing house, but don't want to actually afford them the same benefits that straight couples enjoy. SiCA said it perfectly...separate but equal seems to be the norm in this thinking. You can't just tell people that the way they live is perfectly fine and then turn around and tell them that they can't reap the same benefits as others because of their lifestyle. It's just not right. You can't have it both ways.
    I have nothing against them living that way or entering into their own civil unions. I just have an issue with it being called a marriage.
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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Preacher View Post
    I have heard the rumor that basically, it was thrown for the ability to appeal to SCOTUS. I doubt it, but found it an interesting thought.
    That is a mighty dangerous risk considered the current composition of the SCOTUS. I think even the staunchest of anti-gay judges would have a difficult time upholding Prop 8. I said the day Prop 8 passed it was the best thing to happen for opponents of it. It almost guarantees it will be heard all the way up to the SCOTUS. The distinction is once the SCOTUS rules on it, it goes for everyone, right now it's just CA.

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    I'm sorry, but I never said any of that, nor insinuated it. What I did say was:

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    Unfortunately, persecution will always happen. That is the nature of man (as we know it). But to say that allowing gay marriage means the majority of people think it a slap in the face to the Church (any church) just isn't so.
    I said, "for those who think..." Not, "The majority". I was very deliberate in the way I stated it-because I know there are a few people out there who think that way. Not the majority. It is those few people that I am speaking too, because it is quite short-sighted of them to think that way.

    The seeds of persecution don't need to be planted in man...they are just there. Groups of people will often persecute those things that they feel are threatening to their way of life or things they see as wrong and/or immoral. It's been happening since the beginning of recorded history, and I doubt it will stop in our lifetimes.
    I did not say they are planted IN Man. I said they are being planted... and my reference is in the American culture. It is an issue which will affect both groups just as much.
    This does not mean that people who support gay marriages are hoping to one day overthrow the church.
    Once again, I never said it did. I am saying that there is a minor group that looks to slap down the church at any and every place possible, because they see the church as nothing more than a superstition breeding hate and intolerance bread of a closed mind (The irony however, is quite thick).

    This is also not a good argument to support bans on gay marriage.
    And again. I never said it was, and never used it as an argument to support traditional marriage as opposed to gay marriage.


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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMan786 View Post
    There have been no benefits strong enough to prove that gay marriage is beneficial though. That is the problem.
    Why exactly do they have to prove it's beneficial??? The way the law stands, the government has to prove under a strict scrutiny standard why they should be denied a fundamental right. The gays don't have to prove ANYTHING. They are a suspect class and marriage is a fundamental right. No one disputes that.

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Preacher...I'm sorry, but I don't see your point in bringing up what you think people are going to persecute others on if you don't think a majority of people are going to be doing the persecuting. If you are just throwing around the term to mean that a small group of people are going to bash an organization, then I don't think you get what the actual definition and social ramifications of persecute means (in the context of mass persecution, which is what was implied in your original post). It's just how you made your post sound, that you thought that by allowing gay marriage that it would open up unforeseen doors to religious persecution in the US and worldwide.

    And I stand by my statement that humanity will always (eventually) find a reason to persecute others. It's one of the most repeated themes in the history of man, and I doubt it will end in our lifetimes, let alone any foreseeable future.

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelersinCA View Post
    Why exactly do they have to prove it's beneficial??? The way the law stands, the government has to prove under a strict scrutiny standard why they should be denied a fundamental right. The gays don't have to prove ANYTHING. They are a suspect class and marriage is a fundamental right. No one disputes that.
    Show me where they're considered a protected minority. There is nothing that says gays are a protected minority.
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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMan786 View Post
    Show me where they're considered a protected minority. There is nothing that says gays are a protected minority.
    First off...and I'm sure SiCA will want to answer this himself as well...no where in what you quoted does it say "protected minority". Are you honestly trying to say that only the majority in the US is protected under the US Constitution? That's not what the Constitution was set up to provide for you know.

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    First off...and I'm sure SiCA will want to answer this himself as well...no where in what you quoted does it say "protected minority". Are you honestly trying to say that only the majority in the US is protected under the US Constitution? That's not what the Constitution was set up to provide for you know.
    No, I have taken more the enough classes in American Govt. to know that the constitution is for all 300+ Million Americans who have actual citizenship. It doesn't apply to those who are here illegally.
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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMan786 View Post
    No, I have taken more the enough classes in American Govt. to know that the constitution is for all 300+ Million Americans who have actual citizenship. It doesn't apply to those who are here illegally.
    Nobody has said anything about those here illegally. Why bring that up? In fact, no where in SiCA's statement does it say "protected minority". Everyone, from atheists, to Christians, to Satanists, to homosexuals are supposed to be protected under the Constitution, minority or not. Minorities are more than one race of people.

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMan786 View Post
    I have nothing against them living that way or entering into their own civil unions. I just have an issue with it being called a marriage.
    This is exactly where I"m at on this issue.






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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by HometownGal View Post
    This is exactly where I"m at on this issue.
    Ok...so you are ok with it being called a civil union. That means you are ok with them having the title of domestic partnership. This title does not come with the same benefits that married couples enjoy (or don't enjoy depending on who you ask ). That means you are ok with them playing house as long as they are not given the same benefits as straight married couples. This is not ok in my book. This falls under "separate but equal" as far as I'm concerned.

    If a civil union was something that anyone (gay or straight) entered into outside of the church...fine, I'd agree with you. But civil unions are only for gay couples. They are not for atheists, they are not for satanists, they are not for people married by Elvis impersonators...they are for gay people. Civil unions do not carry the same legal status that marriages do in the eyes of the state or the federal government. Again, I have to reiterate, this is saying that we....as a people...are ok with homosexuals playing house, as long as they are not afforded the same benefits. It's just wrong. You can't have it both ways.

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Preacher jus like to git the heathens riled up y'all - have a shot of tequilla on me.

    I know how to deal with these snake handlers - I have the healing touch.


    yea verily

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMan786 View Post
    Show me where they're considered a protected minority. There is nothing that says gays are a protected minority.
    They are in the state of Washington

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by JonM229 View Post
    And that is not a significant enough of a margin for me to say that on a national level.
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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMom View Post
    Like SiCA said, fundamental rights aren't (and shouldn't be) subject to popular vote. Besides...the majority of people aren't always right anyways. Just look at Obama...and American Idol.
    Spot on, SCM!

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    A little off topic, but am I the only one that thinks the abbreviation "SCOTUS" sounds just a little dirty?

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattsme View Post
    A little off topic, but am I the only one that thinks the abbreviation "SCOTUS" sounds just a little dirty?
    yeah, it's a little nasty

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    1 Judge Trumps 7,000,000 voters

    "Here we have an openly gay federal judge, according to the San Francisco Chronicle, substituting his views for those of the American people and of our Founding Fathers who, I promise you, would be shocked by courts that imagine they have the right to put gay marriage in our Constitution," said Maggie Gallagher, chairwoman of The National Organization for Marriage, a group that helped fund Proposition 8.



    In response, the Gay and Lesbian Victory Fund, a political action committee for gay candidates, launched an online petition accusing Gallagher's group of "gay-baiting."

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    I really believe his ruling is unconstitutional because he is going against the will of the american people. One man should not be able to strike down a proposition that the majority vote in favor of

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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Who cares. I mean .. .really? With over 50% divorce rates in America, don't gays have the same right to be as pissed off and unhappy as straights?

    The judge? He's a libertarian. He wants less government/nanny state-ism.

    I agree.
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    Re: California's Prop 8 ruled unconstitutional

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelCityMan786 View Post
    Show me where they're considered a protected minority. There is nothing that says gays are a protected minority.
    How about you show me first why they have to prove anything. You answer my question with a question, I'll be happy to answer yours, but you answer mine first, deal? When the government takes away a right from ANYONE, the GOVERNMENT must provide justification for doing so. You tell me how you shift the burden to homosexuals in this instance.

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