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Thread: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    Slash, I want to agree with you. But I don't see anything in that document that says Verizon or any other phone provider can't willingly give the government that information. That's the position an attorney would take and I think it would win if something like this went to court.

    Your final line is more intriguing to me. If accurate I think they could get nailed there. I didn't know the NSA was barred from domestic investigation. Precedent says otherwise. Where/when were they instructed not to operate domestically, if you know?
    Sorry, I was out socializing all night...
    That is set forth in Executive Order 12333.
    NSA's mission is to collect information that constitutes "foreign intelligence or counterintelligence" while not "acquiring information concerning the domestic activities of United States persons".
    This was a codicil attached to the FISA act, springing from Nixon's Watergate scandal. The NSA and CIA were specifically barred from operating domestically. That was the sole purview of the FBI and DIA. But that's all out the window now.

    Also, I didn't see it mentioned here, but it was confirmed today that it wasn't just Verizon, but all major carriers. And it wasn't telephony metadata, but also e-mails and credit card records. The .gov has all that info and have been collecting it for at least 7 years now.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    Slash, I want to agree with you. But I don't see anything in that document that says Verizon or any other phone provider can't willingly give the government that information. That's the position an attorney would take and I think it would win if something like this went to court.

    Your final line is more intriguing to me. If accurate I think they could get nailed there. I didn't know the NSA was barred from domestic investigation. Precedent says otherwise. Where/when were they instructed not to operate domestically, if you know?
    I posted that to point out that there is *definitely* an expectation of privacy with metadata, as well as e-mail and credit card purchases. The government has no authority to look at that stuff for anybody who's not suspected of a crime and all these statutes point that out.
    Anybody who seriously claims that "there is no expectation of privacy" in these matters is invited to contact me via PM so that we can arrange authorization for me to review your call history, e-mail, and credit card records for the last 7 years.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Another day another bombshell revelation by The Guardian:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...iants-nsa-data

    The National Security Agency has obtained direct access to the systems of Google, Facebook, Apple and other US internet giants, according to a top secret document obtained by the Guardian.

    The NSA access is part of a previously undisclosed program called Prism, which allows officials to collect material including search history, the content of emails, file transfers and live chats, the document says.

    The Guardian has verified the authenticity of the document, a 41-slide PowerPoint presentation – classified as top secret with no distribution to foreign allies – which was apparently used to train intelligence operatives on the capabilities of the program. The document claims "collection directly from the servers" of major US service providers.
    NSA's own documents show that they've been collecting everything you do on the internet. Your google searches, your facebook page, your communications and file transfers on Skype... everything.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Well, I feel safe now.

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    Think any of Obama's adoring throng will notice his hypocracy? I don't.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Think any of Obama's adoring throng will notice his hypocracy? I don't.
    To be fair, there has been a backlash on the left over this. Not just Dem politicians breaking ranks, but genuine outrage in the liberal blogosphere. Not nearly enough IMO just as there wasn't nearly enough outrage on the right when Dubya was doing this, but it is there.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    "If you have nothing to hide, you don't need to worry."

    How does one respond to this fallacy?

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by The Patriot View Post
    "If you have nothing to hide, you don't need to worry."

    How does one respond to this fallacy?
    If the government has nothing to hide, why'd they play the "no comment card".
    "If you are holding on to something that you no longer need to hold on to, I encourage you to let go." - Rashard Mendenhall

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    "If you have nothing to hide, you don't need to worry."

    How does one respond to this fallacy?

    My gurl Julie, right on time.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by The Patriot View Post
    "If you have nothing to hide, you don't need to worry."

    How does one respond to this fallacy?
    Transparency should start with the government. THEY should be accountable to us, not the other way around.

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Good responses. It's disheartening to see Americans accepting this like it's no big deal.

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by The Patriot View Post
    Good responses. It's disheartening to see Americans accepting this like it's no big deal.
    http://www.ibtimes.com/majority-amer...s-poll-1300213
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected


    Sad day indeed. 1984, we are here.


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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by The Patriot View Post
    Good responses. It's disheartening to see Americans accepting this like it's no big deal.
    Does anyone here even doubt that Obama would romp to a 3rd term in office if he wasn't legally prohibted?
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Does anyone here even doubt that Obama would romp to a 3rd term in office if he wasn't legally prohibted?
    Not at all. I'm sure he is trying to find a way around that as we speak.


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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    One of the things that poll tells me, besides the obvious, is that most people don't care about their rights and privacy being infringed upon as long as it's their guy doing it. And that is why many in government feel they can pretty much do whatever they want. If more people stopped caring more about their party than their freedom, a whole lot of shit would get fixed real quick.








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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by X-Terminator View Post
    One of the things that poll tells me, besides the obvious, is that most people don't care about their rights and privacy being infringed upon as long as it's their guy doing it. And that is why many in government feel they can pretty much do whatever they want. If more people stopped caring more about their party than their freedom, a whole lot of shit would get fixed real quick.
    'zackly. Republicans were cheerleading for this behavior when Dubya was doing it, and Democrats are cheerleading it now that Obama's doing it. It's blind partisanship and it's stupid.
    The problem is the government itself.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by X-Terminator View Post
    One of the things that poll tells me, besides the obvious, is that most people don't care about their rights and privacy being infringed upon as long as it's their guy doing it. And that is why many in government feel they can pretty much do whatever they want. If more people stopped caring more about their party than their freedom, a whole lot of shit would get fixed real quick.

    X, one can't help but see that happening. I'll admit it, I'm one that supported the Patriot Act at the time when Dubya was in office. And I'll admit it, I'm very peaved and concerned over Obamas latest exploits. It's the same yet it's different. Guess it all comes down to 'who do you trust'. My answer is 'not the guy who's President at the same time the IRS is targeting conservative groups, or I'll just say it out right, his political enemies.
    Stay classy, leftnutz

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    And then *this* poll comes out...
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-...ary-americans/
    In the wake of the recent disclosure of two classified U.S. surveillance programs, most Americans disapprove of the government collecting the phone numbers of ordinary Americans, but approve of its monitoring those suspected of terrorist activity, according to a new CBS News poll.

    Seventy-five percent of Americans approve of federal agencies collecting the phone records of people the government suspects of terrorist activity, but a 58 percent majority disapproves of this type of data collection in the case of ordinary Americans.
    The million dollar question: Which poll is correct?
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Biden Flashback: Don't Trust A Spying President




    http://www.ijreview.com/2013/06/5875...ing-president/


    In today’s episode of “What’s good for me is not good for thee” we find then-Senator Joe Biden in 2006 pontificating on the evils of spying presidents. Funny how Joe’s position has “evolved” in seven years, huh?

    On Fox News’ Special Report with Bret Baier, last night, a video from May 12, 2006 was aired in which Biden admonished us not to trust a president who spies on the American people.

    “If I know every single phone call you’ve made, I’m able to determine every single person you’ve talked to; I can get a pattern about your life that is very, very intrusive. And the real question here, is what do they do with this information that they collect – that does not have anything to do with al-Qaeda? And we’re gonna trust the president and the vice president that they’re doing the right thing? Don’t count me in on that.”

    So, what’s changed, Joe? Other than it’s now Barack Obama who’s doing the “information collecting,” I mean? Anyway, don’t count me – or other freedom-loving Americans – in, either.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    I was for it, before I was against it.

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    To be totally fair, there are two possibilities here: Either they were both hypocrite scumbags or else they truly believed all their rhetoric until they saw things that changed their minds that we're not privy to. Personally, I lean towards the former since these gross excesses of power haven't been very helpful in keeping us safe...

    What I'm more interested in is this:

    Any which way you look at it, this is clearly perjury.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    these gross excesses of power haven't been very helpful in keeping us safe...
    If we're being "totally fair", this statement can't be made. We don't really know if these infringements on our privacy have led to thwarted crimes or not. I'm not justifying the actions whatsoever, but I think it is important for truth's sake to point out that we can't automatically dismiss the excesses of power as a failure with regard to public safety. We don't have all the information. That said, I'd rather live with a greater threat of terrorism hurting me than I would with a government that lies to me and intrudes on my right to privacy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Something that bothered me tonight. I had Letterman on the television and he addressed the issue at hand. He then asked the audience "how many of you have a problem this?" and it sounded as if maybe four or five people in the entire studio clapped in response. As I've been saying, I don't think conservative or libertarian ideals are as strong in this country as we on this board believe. I think most of America, and not just the US, is liberal in both social and more troublingly economic views.
    "If you are holding on to something that you no longer need to hold on to, I encourage you to let go." - Rashard Mendenhall

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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    If we're being "totally fair", this statement can't be made. We don't really know if these infringements on our privacy have led to thwarted crimes or not. I'm not justifying the actions whatsoever, but I think it is important for truth's sake to point out that we can't automatically dismiss the excesses of power as a failure with regard to public safety. We don't have all the information. That said, I'd rather live with a greater threat of terrorism hurting me than I would with a government that lies to me and intrudes on my right to privacy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Something that bothered me tonight. I had Letterman on the television and he addressed the issue at hand. He then asked the audience "how many of you have a problem this?" and it sounded as if maybe four or five people in the entire studio clapped in response. As I've been saying, I don't think conservative or libertarian ideals are as strong in this country as we on this board believe. I think most of America, and not just the US, is liberal in both social and more troublingly economic views.
    I'm not sure you can say that about all of Americans when your sample size is a group of a hundred or so Letterman fans that probably lean left anyways.


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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by 43Hitman View Post
    I'm not sure you can say that about all of Americans when your sample size is a group of a hundred or so Letterman fans that probably lean left anyways.
    It's good enough for a msnbc scientific poll.


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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Here's the new building where the copies of your hard drives are stored.



    BLUFFDALE, Utah (AP) — The nation's new billion-dollar epicenter for fighting global cyberthreats sits just south of Salt Lake City, tucked away on a National Guard base at the foot of snow-capped mountains. The long, squat buildings span 1.5 million square feet, and are filled with super-powered computers designed to store massive amounts of information gathered secretly from phone calls and emails.

    Two small, weathered signs in the sagebrush greet interlopers to this place with a stark warning: "Military reservation. No trespassing." But there is no visible marker bearing the facility's name and operator: The Utah Data Center, brought to you courtesy of the National Security Agency.

    When it opens this fall, the facility will be the NSA's largest data storage center in the U.S. Just don't ask Utah officials, and certainly not the residents of tiny Bluffdale, just north of the new center, to tell you exactly what will go on inside. They either don't know, or aren't saying. And the NSA is famously tight-lipped.

    "We know it's a spy center. But who are they spying on?" said Connie Robbins, an upholstery shop owner who lives in Bluffdale, a community of 8,000 some 25 miles south of Salt Lake City that is known for its rodeo and annual Old West Days.

    The dearth of information has perpetuated a mystery that has spawned dozens of theories and a spoof website that even includes a phony code name for the facility: "Bumblehive," a play on Utah's nickname of the "Beehive State."

    Last week's revelation that the NSA is collecting millions of U.S. phone records along with digital communications stored by nine major Internet providers illustrates how aggressively personal information is being congregated and analyzed — and shines a brighter light on what will be going on in secret at the Utah facility, scheduled to open in October.

    NSA officials say the center will play a key role in the nation's effort to protect national security networks, and allow U.S. authorities to monitor for potential cyberthreats. In an email, agency spokeswoman Vanee Vines said that "many unfounded allegations have been made about the planned activities" of the center.

    "NSA would like to confirm, on the record, that the Utah Data Center is a state-of-the-art data facility designed to support the U.S. intelligence community's efforts to further strengthen and protect the nation. Its operations will be lawfully conducted in accordance with U.S. laws and policies," Vines wrote.
    http://news.yahoo.com/utah-home-nsas...080502716.html


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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Fun Fact Of The Day: Mosque’s Are Off-Limits To Obama’s Snooping.


    The White House assures that tracking our every phone call and keystroke is to stop terrorists, and yet it won’t snoop in mosques, where the terrorists are.

    That’s right, the government’s sweeping surveillance of our most private communications excludes the jihad factories where homegrown terrorists are radicalized.

    Since October 2011, mosques have been off-limits to FBI agents. No more surveillance or undercover string operations without high-level approval from a special oversight body at the Justice Department dubbed the Sensitive Operations Review Committee.

    Who makes up this body, and how do they decide requests? Nobody knows; the names of the chairman, members and staff are kept secret.

    We do know the panel was set up under pressure from Islamist groups who complained about FBI stings at mosques. Just months before the panel’s formation, the Council on American-Islamic Relations teamed up with the ACLU to sue the FBI for allegedly violating the civil rights of Muslims in Los Angeles by hiring an undercover agent to infiltrate and monitor mosques there.

    Before mosques were excluded from the otherwise wide domestic spy net the administration has cast, the FBI launched dozens of successful sting operations against homegrown jihadists — inside mosques — and disrupted dozens of plots against the homeland.
    http://weaselzippers.us/2013/06/12/f...amas-snooping/


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    Re: NSA Orders Phone Records of Millions Collected

    Quote Originally Posted by Seven View Post
    If we're being "totally fair", this statement can't be made. We don't really know if these infringements on our privacy have led to thwarted crimes or not. I'm not justifying the actions whatsoever, but I think it is important for truth's sake to point out that we can't automatically dismiss the excesses of power as a failure with regard to public safety. We don't have all the information. That said, I'd rather live with a greater threat of terrorism hurting me than I would with a government that lies to me and intrudes on my right to privacy.
    I don't think it's an unfair assessment. We cannot know whether it has been helpful at all, but we can surmise *how* helpful it has been. The people who defend this program only ever refer to 2 examples where it was used to help thwart a terrorist attack, and in both cases it was helpful, but not critical. If they had any real ammo to defend it's indispensability, they would use it.



    Something that bothered me tonight. I had Letterman on the television and he addressed the issue at hand. He then asked the audience "how many of you have a problem this?" and it sounded as if maybe four or five people in the entire studio clapped in response. As I've been saying, I don't think conservative or libertarian ideals are as strong in this country as we on this board believe. I think most of America, and not just the US, is liberal in both social and more troublingly economic views.
    That's a room full of New Yorkers, and generally lefty New Yorkers at that. I don't believe that most in this country are as libertarian as I am, but the attitudes you see in the media are heavily skewed.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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