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Thread: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Wow you just don't get it do you? Nothing you just wrote has any relevance to this thread. I mean really, you've skirted every issue, so I'm not even going to bother addressing your lies and distortions anymore. .
    LOL everything i wrote and posted is relevant to everything we are talking, about which part is not relevant? Oh and im still waiting for you to post where i made the claim that all religions have the same penalty for apostasy or where i claimed maher was wrong. You can try and deflect all you want but you know perfectly well what i posted above directly addresses apostasy in modern muslim culture.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    LOL everything i wrote and posted is relevant to everything we are talking, about which part is not relevant? Oh and im still waiting for you to post where i made the claim that all religions have the same penalty for apostasy or where i claimed maher was wrong. You can try and deflect all you want but you know perfectly well what i posted above directly addresses apostasy in modern muslim culture.
    Find someone to agree with you, if so I'll get back to you. But honestly you come off as deluded. You're talking as if you've proven something, and not one person believes you've made so much as one point that sensibly counters the original premise of the thread. Bill Maher, a noted atheist hit the nail on the head.


    Have you even bothered to view the video that comes with the link to the OP?

    Regardless you haven't made a case, so really it's not worth bothering responding to the noise you've posted.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Find someone to agree with you, if so I'll get back to you. But honestly you come off as deluded. You're talking as if you've proven something, and not one person believes you've made so much as one point that sensibly counters the original premise of the thread. Bill Maher, a noted atheist hit the nail on the head.


    Have you even bothered to view the video that comes with the link to the OP?

    Regardless you haven't made a case, so really it's not worth bothering responding to the noise you've posted.
    My case is made pal, the problem is you have no answer for it, If you would like to talk about the original topic of the thread then fine, as i have pointed out numerous times already i never said maher was wrong, you said i said it and when i asked you to show me where i posted it, you ignore it and tell me i havent made a case. If you dont like islam thats fine, i dont like islam either but trying to convince people that anyone who leaves the religion is killed and people are rarely ever converting out of islam, for fear of death are factually inaccurate.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    My case is made pal
    Yes it is.



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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    My case is made pal, the problem is you have no answer for it, If you would like to talk about the original topic of the thread then fine, as i have pointed out numerous times already i never said maher was wrong, you said i said it and when i asked you to show me where i posted it, you ignore it and tell me i havent made a case. If you dont like islam thats fine, i dont like islam either but trying to convince people that anyone who leaves the religion is killed and people are rarely ever converting out of islam, for fear of death are factually inaccurate.
    Dude, you were completely owned by Preacher. Everyone outisde of you knows it. You're delusional. And as far as your statement that people convert away from Islam all the time, as if it's no big deal. The link you provided was weakly supported ( and I'm being generous here) as to numbers and even at that the link states that a preponderance of the converts have done so "secretly" as they fear the reprisal's that will come from the local authorities around them were their conversion open or public. Which in turn strengthens the case that converting from being Muslim is indeed dangerous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mach1 View Post
    Yes it is.

    Don't you just love self proclaimed champions.

    I'll leave it to the board. Did Dawg make his case?
    Last edited by zulater; 04-24-2013 at 07:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Dude, you were completely owned by Preacher. Everyone outisde of you knows it. You're delusional. I wont even bother to read your posts anymore. Bye bye.

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    Don't you just love self proclaimed champions.

    I'll leave it to the board. Did Dawg make his case?
    Yep, he most certainly has. I'm completely convinced he's a troll.

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  7. #67

    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Its not taken out of context its directly in context, I know the story of the fulfilment of the law, but it was still ordered by god (who is also jesus) to kill apostates, it is part of the bible which is the doctrine for the religion, the Ten commandments are also part of mosiac law but every christian loves to tout those. In fact many christians want this to be a christian nation because they believe the ten commandments where used as the foundation. Not to mention the fact the denying god and jesus gets thrown into a realm of eternal torture. Also christians arguing that homosexuality is a sin, which was in mosaic law not in christs law, but christians argue that the bible says its a sin in gods eyes. It is a clear cut case of cherry picking.
    From the top,

    I'm sorry, the Deut. text is not about killing apostates. Please take another look at it. The key word is the one translated as entice, or mislead. In the Hebrew it is located as a Hiphil imperfect, and has a pronoun attached to the end of it. As such, the word is literally, "he will mislead you" or, with the previous word, this becomes a conditional sentence, "if he misleads you." Who is "he"? The sentence bares it out, and basically says anyone that is close to you. Thus, in English, "if your brother, son of your mother . . . entices you by saying, Let us go and serve another God which you do not know, nor your fathers . . . instead, verily kill him."

    The point you seem to be missing, is the "entices you by saying." This has nothing to do with "apostasy." It has everything to do with someone not just making their own decisions, but then trying to influence others to lead them astray as well. As such, this verse has nothing to do with this discussion. The murder you are trying to compare to Christianity is one in which a Muslim extremist kills simply because (1) the person is an infidel, or (2) the person has left Islam. Please don't run roughshod over the specifics of the text. It is only in those specifics that you will find the actual meaning, and the meaning here is to put to death someone who is part of the community, but is attempting to lead others astray, because in short, they are proclaiming another God.

    Now, what does that make them? There is one office is the OT that actually proclaims the will of God, or who God is. That office is the prophet. Go back to the beginning of this chapter—which is again, why you need to take these texts in context—and you will find that the context here, is . . . what to do with false prophets. That prophet is to be put to death. Then, if your brother, son, daughter, etc., acts in the ROLE of a prophet and tries to lead you astray, they are to take on the same punishment as the false prophet. So, no, once again, this passage has nothing to do with killing someone simply for being an apostate. Moreover, In the NT there were a number of false prophets in the church. Paul writes of them and not ONCE does he instruct the church to kill them. Why? Because that was part of the law that had been fulfilled.

    So in short, once again, this verse has nothing to do with what you're talking about, because (1) it is not about killing the apostate, it's about killing the false prophet that is trying to lead others astray, (2) it was not applied in the NT even in the context of killing false prophets.


    Now 19:27

    Duh, I know its a parable Its a parable describing himself to his disciples, thats the moral of the parable, Its perfectly relevant to the discussion.
    What is the moral of the parable? That God wants to slaughter everyone? Look, I need to get going, so I'll just say here that there is NO 1 to 1 comparison to Jesus and his disciples. Why? Notice the first lines. First, a nobleman traved to a far country to receive authority to become a king. That does not compare to Jesus, who condescended to humanity not to receive authority to become king, which he already was, but to become a servant. Beyond that, there is the entire idea of how to actually interpet parables which I do not have the time to get into right now. However, the idea of killing here is not killing the unbeliever, but those who do not have, will have even less. Thus, those who do not have love for the new king, now has even less, that is, they have neither love nor hate, because they are now dead.
    Last edited by Craic; 04-24-2013 at 11:21 PM.


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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Preacher, you can run circles around this guy all day( and you clearly have) and he'll still swear he won the race.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'




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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Did Dawg make his case?
    About as well as usual.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    And just for the record, simply having a contrary opinion in and of itself is NOT trolling. It may be like banging your head off a brick wall in frustration, but it isn't trolling. If you want to continue to frustrate yourself by arguing with someone whose mind is clearly closed, you can do that, but if you drive yourself nuts, it's your own fault.








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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by X-Terminator View Post
    And just for the record, simply having a contrary opinion in and of itself is NOT trolling. It may be like banging your head off a brick wall in frustration, but it isn't trolling. If you want to continue to frustrate yourself by arguing with someone whose mind is clearly closed, you can do that, but if you drive yourself nuts, it's your own fault.
    Contrary opinion is one thing, but when you've been proved wrong on a point of fact and rather than concede or at least stand down you keep coming back with the same set of facts, just put with maybe a slightly different twist, and declare yourself victor beyond dispute. When you insist on the last word on every single subject, even when you have nothing new to say, other than again declaring false victory on a subject you've been relatively owned on... Well that leads to pissed off feelings, and eventually a member in good standing will respond in such a way as to put his own posting status in jeapardy. That's the danger you invite when you allow someone like this to continue to post without official rebuke.
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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by Preacher View Post
    From the top,

    I'm sorry, the Deut. text is not about killing apostates. Please take another look at it. The key word is the one translated as entice, or mislead. In the Hebrew it is located as a Hiphil imperfect, and has a pronoun attached to the end of it. As such, the word is literally, "he will mislead you" or, with the previous word, this becomes a conditional sentence, "if he misleads you." Who is "he"? The sentence bares it out, and basically says anyone that is close to you. Thus, in English, "if your brother, son of your mother . . . entices you by saying, Let us go and serve another God which you do not know, nor your fathers . . . instead, verily kill him."

    The point you seem to be missing, is the "entices you by saying." This has nothing to do with "apostasy." It has everything to do with someone not just making their own decisions, but then trying to influence others to lead them astray as well. As such, this verse has nothing to do with this discussion. The murder you are trying to compare to Christianity is one in which a Muslim extremist kills simply because (1) the person is an infidel, or (2) the person has left Islam. Please don't run roughshod over the specifics of the text. It is only in those specifics that you will find the actual meaning, and the meaning here is to put to death someone who is part of the community, but is attempting to lead others astray, because in short, they are proclaiming another God.

    Now, what does that make them? There is one office is the OT that actually proclaims the will of God, or who God is. That office is the prophet. Go back to the beginning of this chapter—which is again, why you need to take these texts in context—and you will find that the context here, is . . . what to do with false prophets. That prophet is to be put to death. Then, if your brother, son, daughter, etc., acts in the ROLE of a prophet and tries to lead you astray, they are to take on the same punishment as the false prophet. So, no, once again, this passage has nothing to do with killing someone simply for being an apostate. Moreover, In the NT there were a number of false prophets in the church. Paul writes of them and not ONCE does he instruct the church to kill them. Why? Because that was part of the law that had been fulfilled.

    So in short, once again, this verse has nothing to do with what you're talking about, because (1) it is not about killing the apostate, it's about killing the false prophet that is trying to lead others astray, (2) it was not applied in the NT even in the context of killing false prophets.



    What is the moral of the parable? That God wants to slaughter everyone? Look, I need to get going, so I'll just say here that there is NO 1 to 1 comparison to Jesus and his disciples. Why? Notice the first lines. First, a nobleman traved to a far country to receive authority to become a king. That does not compare to Jesus, who condescended to humanity not to receive authority to become king, which he already was, but to become a servant. Beyond that, there is the entire idea of how to actually interpet parables which I do not have the time to get into right now. However, the idea of killing here is not killing the unbeliever, but those who do not have, will have even less. Thus, those who do not have love for the new king, now has even less, that is, they have neither love nor hate, because they are now dead.
    That is so ridiculous what your saying is its a huge difference between killing an apostate and killing an apostate who entices someone else to commit apostasy, it's the same difference!

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    That is so ridiculous what your saying is its a huge difference between killing an apostate and killing an apostate who entices someone else to commit apostasy, it's the same difference!

    so much to learn young grasshopper ,
    so much to learn .......

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwinsgames View Post
    so much to learn young grasshopper ,
    so much to learn .......
    You can't learn when you have yourself convinced you already know everything.

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  16. #76

    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    That is so ridiculous what your saying is its a huge difference between killing an apostate and killing an apostate who entices someone else to commit apostasy, it's the same difference!
    The laws by which one is killed for leading others to worship another God are the laws that fall under being a false prophet. That is, proclaiming that you are speaking with an authority that you do not have. Once again, you must remember that Deuteronomy is a typical ancient near east suzerain treaty, incorporating the same types of language and laws as every other treaty. Thus, what is being said here is that if someone else comes speaking in my name (the king, or in this case, YHWH), and in reality, he has not come with my authority, then you must put him to death because he is attempting to lead you as a people into breaking this treaty with me.

    So yes, it is ALL about killing the person who attempts to lead others in violating the suzerain treaty. In realpolitik, it is called an uprising and led many kings in the ANE to swoop through and destroy their vassals. Others reset the covenant with harsher penalties.

    Again, it is about context: the context of the verse you are quoting, within the context of the passage you are reading, within the context of the book of Deuteronomy, with in the context of the setting of the narrative. You seem to want to pull these verses out of this context and make one to one comparisons, but in doing so, you completely miss the purpose of the teaching and the reasoning behind the verse. Read it again, and tell me if you find any place in the verse you posted where a person who decides not to believe is to be put to death. The answer, is no. NO PERSON is to be put to death simply because they choose not to believe. It is only when they attempt to lead others in breaking the suzerain treaty that they are put to death because they are acting in the office of prophet—claiming a king's authority that they do not have, to take away people that are not theirs to take away, to submit to another king/God that they (The person acting as a false prophet) are proclaiming.

    So yes, there is a HUGE difference between killing someone for being an apostate, and putting someone to death for falsely speaking in the name of the king.


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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Today, April 24, marks the “Great Crime,” that is, the Armenian genocide that took place under Turkey’s Islamic Ottoman Empire, during and after WWI. Out of an approximate population of two million, some 1.5 million Armenians died. If early 20th century Turkey had the apparatuses and technology to execute in mass—such as 1940s Germany’s gas chambers—the entire Armenian population may well have been annihilated. Most objective American historians who have studied the question unequivocally agree that it was a deliberate, calculated genocide:

    More than one million Armenians perished as the result of execution, starvation, disease, the harsh environment, and physical abuse. A people who lived in eastern Turkey for nearly 3,000 years [more than double the amount of time the invading Islamic Turks had occupied Anatolia, now known as “Turkey”] lost its homeland and was profoundly decimated in the first large-scale genocide of the twentieth century. At the beginning of 1915 there were some two million Armenians within Turkey; today there are fewer than 60,000…. Despite the vast amount of evidence that points to the historical reality of the Armenian Genocide, eyewitness accounts, official archives, photographic evidence, the reports of diplomats, and the testimony of survivors, denial of the Armenian Genocide by successive regimes in Turkey has gone on from 1915 to the present.


    A still frame from the 1919 documentary film Auction of Souls, which portrayed eye witnessed events from the Armenian Genocide, including crucified Christian girls.
    Indeed, evidence has been overwhelming. U.S. Senate Resolution 359 from 1920 heard testimony that included evidence of “[m]utilation, violation, torture, and death [which] have left their haunting memories in a hundred beautiful Armenian valleys, and the traveler in that region is seldom free from the evidence of this most colossal crime of all the ages.” In her memoir, Ravished Armenia, Aurora Mardiganian described being raped and thrown into a harem (which agrees with Islam’s rules of war). Unlike thousands of other Armenian girls who were discarded after being defiled, she managed to escape. In the city of Malatia, she saw 16 Christian girls crucified: “Each girl had been nailed alive upon her cross, spikes through her feet and hands, only their hair blown by the wind, covered their bodies.” Such scenes were portrayed in the 1919 documentary film Auction of Souls, some of which is based on Mardiganian’s memoirs.

    What do Americans know of the Armenian Genocide? To be sure, some American high school textbooks acknowledge it. However, one of the primary causes for it—perhaps the fundamental cause—is completely unacknowledged: religion. The genocide is always articulated through a singularly secular paradigm, one that deems valid only those factors that are intelligible from a modern, secular, Western point of view, such as identity politics, nationalism, and territorial disputes. As can be imagined, such an approach does little more than project Western perspectives onto vastly different civilizations of different eras, thus anachronizing history.

    War, of course, is another factor that clouds the true face of the Armenian genocide. Because these atrocities occurred during WWI, so the argument goes, they are ultimately a reflection of just that—war, in all its chaos and destruction, and nothing more. Yet Winston Churchill, who described the massacres as an “administrative holocaust,” correctly observed that “The opportunity [WWI] presented itself for clearing Turkish soil of a Christian race.” Even Adolf Hitler had pointed out that “Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention.”

    It is the same today throughout the Muslim world, wherever there is war: after the U.S. toppled Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, the nation’s Christian minority were first to be targeted for systematic persecution resulting in more than half of Iraq’s indigenous Christian population fleeing their homeland. Now that war has come to Syria—with the U.S. supporting the jihadis and terrorists—the Christians there are on the run for their lives.

    There is no denying that religion—or in this context, the age-old specter of Muslim persecution of Christian minorities—was fundamental to the Armenian Genocide. Even the most cited factor, ethnic identity conflict, while legitimate, must be understood in light of the fact that, historically, religion—creed—accounted more for a person’s identity than language or heritage. This is daily demonstrated throughout the Islamic world today, where Muslim governments and Muslim mobs persecute Christian minorities—minorities who share the same ethnicity, language, and culture, who are indistinguishable from the majority, except, of course, for being non-Muslims.

    If Christians are thus being singled out today—in our modern, globalized, “humanitarian” age—are we to suppose that they weren’t singled out a century ago by Turks?

    Similarly, often forgotten is the fact that non-Armenians under Turkish hegemony, Assyrians and Greeks for example, were also targeted for cleansing. The only thing that distinguished Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks from Turks was that they were all Christian. As one Armenian studies professor asks, “If it [the Armenian Genocide] was a feud between Turks and Armenians, what explains the genocide carried out by Turkey against the Christian Assyrians at the same time?”

    Today, as Turkey continues moving back to reclaiming its Islamic heritage, so too has Christian persecution returned. If Turks taunted their crucified Armenian victims by saying things like “Now let your Christ come and help you,” just last January, an 85-year-old Christian Armenian woman was repeatedly stabbed to death in her apartment, and a crucifix carved onto her naked corpse. Another elderly Armenian woman was punched in the head and, after collapsing to the floor, repeatedly kicked by a masked man. According to the report, “the attack marks the fifth in the past two months against elderly Armenian women,” one of whom lost an eye. Elsewhere, pastors of church congregations with as little as 20 people are targeted for killing and spat upon in the streets. A 12-year-old Christian boy was beaten by his teacher and harassed by students for wearing a cross around his neck, and three Christians were “satanically tortured” before having their throats slit for publishing Bibles.

    Outside of Turkey, what is happening to the Christians of today from one end of the Muslim world to the other is a reflection of what happened to the Armenian Christians of yesterday. We can learn about the past by looking at the present. From Indonesia in the east to Morocco in the west, from Central Asia in the north, to sub-Sahara Africa—that is, throughout the entire Islamic world—Muslims are, to varying degrees, persecuting, killing, raping, enslaving, torturing and dislocating Christians. See my new book, Crucified Again: Exposing Islam’s New War on Christians for a comprehensive account of one of the greatest—yet, like the Armenian Genocide, little known—atrocities of our times.

    Here is one relevant example to help appreciate the patterns and parallels: in Muslim-majority northern Nigeria, Muslims, led by the Islamic organization, Boko Haram (“Western Education is Forbidden”) are waging a bloody jihad on the Christian minorities in their midst. These two groups—black Nigerian Muslims and black Nigerian Christians—are identical in all ways except, of course, for being Muslims and Christians. And what is Boko Haram’s objective in all this carnage? To cleanse northern Nigeria of all Christians—a goal rather reminiscent of Ottoman policies of cleansing Turkey of all Christians, whether Armenian, Assyrian, or Greek.

    How does one explain this similar pattern of Christian persecution—this desire to be cleansed of Christians—in lands so different from one another as Nigeria and Turkey, lands which share neither race, language, nor culture, which share only Islam? Meanwhile, the modern Islamic world’s response to the persecution of Christians is identical to Turkey’s response to the Armenian Genocide: Denial.

    Finally, to understand how the historic Armenian Genocide is representative of the modern day plight of Christians under Islam, one need only read the following words written in 1918 by President Theodore Roosevelt—but read “Armenian” as “Christian” and “Turkish” as “Islamic”:
    http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/...matters-today/

    What was that point you were making about Turkey earlair Dawg?

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by Preacher View Post
    The laws by which one is killed for leading others to worship another God are the laws that fall under being a false prophet. That is, proclaiming that you are speaking with an authority that you do not have. Once again, you must remember that Deuteronomy is a typical ancient near east suzerain treaty, incorporating the same types of language and laws as every other treaty. Thus, what is being said here is that if someone else comes speaking in my name (the king, or in this case, YHWH), and in reality, he has not come with my authority, then you must put him to death because he is attempting to lead you as a people into breaking this treaty with me.

    So yes, it is ALL about killing the person who attempts to lead others in violating the suzerain treaty. In realpolitik, it is called an uprising and led many kings in the ANE to swoop through and destroy their vassals. Others reset the covenant with harsher penalties.

    Again, it is about context: the context of the verse you are quoting, within the context of the passage you are reading, within the context of the book of Deuteronomy, with in the context of the setting of the narrative. You seem to want to pull these verses out of this context and make one to one comparisons, but in doing so, you completely miss the purpose of the teaching and the reasoning behind the verse. Read it again, and tell me if you find any place in the verse you posted where a person who decides not to believe is to be put to death. The answer, is no. NO PERSON is to be put to death simply because they choose not to believe. It is only when they attempt to lead others in breaking the suzerain treaty that they are put to death because they are acting in the office of prophet—claiming a king's authority that they do not have, to take away people that are not theirs to take away, to submit to another king/God that they (The person acting as a false prophet) are proclaiming.

    So yes, there is a HUGE difference between killing someone for being an apostate, and putting someone to death for falsely speaking in the name of the king.
    No lets look at the religion what is the one unpardonable sin? It is not accepting jesus christ as the one true god. The wages of sin are death! clearly stated in the bible! Now you and many christian apologetics are going to say no no they mean spiritual death, uh huh, then why woulkd christ have to die for our sins? All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman. how is that? so we have people are killed for enticing people to commit apostasy and people are killed for apostasy. look you can try and twist the words or say, no what they really mean is blah blah blah, the point is the words and the passages are there plain as day. Yes i find in thatverse a person choosing not believe is put to death, that would be the person choosing not to believe and enticing others to commit apostasy. Not to mention that the entire religion is based ones faith in god the bible also clearly tells us that anyone not accepting god will be cast into a realm of eternal torment, sounds like peace and love to me. Im not interested in your interpretation of the text, because their are many muslim scholars say the koran does not preach apostasy citing many references to free will but i think that is BS as well, its simply religous people not wanting to admit that there is violence in their religous doctrine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Today, April 24, marks the “Great Crime,” that is, the Armenian genocide that took place under Turkey’s Islamic Ottoman Empire, during and after WWI. Out of an approximate population of two million, some 1.5 million Armenians died. If early 20th century Turkey had the apparatuses and technology to execute in mass—such as 1940s Germany’s gas chambers—the entire Armenian population may well have been annihilated. Most objective American historians who have studied the question unequivocally agree that it was a deliberate, calculated genocide:

    More than one million Armenians perished as the result of execution, starvation, disease, the harsh environment, and physical abuse. A people who lived in eastern Turkey for nearly 3,000 years [more than double the amount of time the invading Islamic Turks had occupied Anatolia, now known as “Turkey”] lost its homeland and was profoundly decimated in the first large-scale genocide of the twentieth century. At the beginning of 1915 there were some two million Armenians within Turkey; today there are fewer than 60,000…. Despite the vast amount of evidence that points to the historical reality of the Armenian Genocide, eyewitness accounts, official archives, photographic evidence, the reports of diplomats, and the testimony of survivors, denial of the Armenian Genocide by successive regimes in Turkey has gone on from 1915 to the present.


    A still frame from the 1919 documentary film Auction of Souls, which portrayed eye witnessed events from the Armenian Genocide, including crucified Christian girls.
    Indeed, evidence has been overwhelming. U.S. Senate Resolution 359 from 1920 heard testimony that included evidence of “[m]utilation, violation, torture, and death [which] have left their haunting memories in a hundred beautiful Armenian valleys, and the traveler in that region is seldom free from the evidence of this most colossal crime of all the ages.” In her memoir, Ravished Armenia, Aurora Mardiganian described being raped and thrown into a harem (which agrees with Islam’s rules of war). Unlike thousands of other Armenian girls who were discarded after being defiled, she managed to escape. In the city of Malatia, she saw 16 Christian girls crucified: “Each girl had been nailed alive upon her cross, spikes through her feet and hands, only their hair blown by the wind, covered their bodies.” Such scenes were portrayed in the 1919 documentary film Auction of Souls, some of which is based on Mardiganian’s memoirs.

    What do Americans know of the Armenian Genocide? To be sure, some American high school textbooks acknowledge it. However, one of the primary causes for it—perhaps the fundamental cause—is completely unacknowledged: religion. The genocide is always articulated through a singularly secular paradigm, one that deems valid only those factors that are intelligible from a modern, secular, Western point of view, such as identity politics, nationalism, and territorial disputes. As can be imagined, such an approach does little more than project Western perspectives onto vastly different civilizations of different eras, thus anachronizing history.

    War, of course, is another factor that clouds the true face of the Armenian genocide. Because these atrocities occurred during WWI, so the argument goes, they are ultimately a reflection of just that—war, in all its chaos and destruction, and nothing more. Yet Winston Churchill, who described the massacres as an “administrative holocaust,” correctly observed that “The opportunity [WWI] presented itself for clearing Turkish soil of a Christian race.” Even Adolf Hitler had pointed out that “Turkey is taking advantage of the war in order to thoroughly liquidate its internal foes, i.e., the indigenous Christians, without being thereby disturbed by foreign intervention.”

    It is the same today throughout the Muslim world, wherever there is war: after the U.S. toppled Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, the nation’s Christian minority were first to be targeted for systematic persecution resulting in more than half of Iraq’s indigenous Christian population fleeing their homeland. Now that war has come to Syria—with the U.S. supporting the jihadis and terrorists—the Christians there are on the run for their lives.

    There is no denying that religion—or in this context, the age-old specter of Muslim persecution of Christian minorities—was fundamental to the Armenian Genocide. Even the most cited factor, ethnic identity conflict, while legitimate, must be understood in light of the fact that, historically, religion—creed—accounted more for a person’s identity than language or heritage. This is daily demonstrated throughout the Islamic world today, where Muslim governments and Muslim mobs persecute Christian minorities—minorities who share the same ethnicity, language, and culture, who are indistinguishable from the majority, except, of course, for being non-Muslims.

    If Christians are thus being singled out today—in our modern, globalized, “humanitarian” age—are we to suppose that they weren’t singled out a century ago by Turks?

    Similarly, often forgotten is the fact that non-Armenians under Turkish hegemony, Assyrians and Greeks for example, were also targeted for cleansing. The only thing that distinguished Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks from Turks was that they were all Christian. As one Armenian studies professor asks, “If it [the Armenian Genocide] was a feud between Turks and Armenians, what explains the genocide carried out by Turkey against the Christian Assyrians at the same time?”

    Today, as Turkey continues moving back to reclaiming its Islamic heritage, so too has Christian persecution returned. If Turks taunted their crucified Armenian victims by saying things like “Now let your Christ come and help you,” just last January, an 85-year-old Christian Armenian woman was repeatedly stabbed to death in her apartment, and a crucifix carved onto her naked corpse. Another elderly Armenian woman was punched in the head and, after collapsing to the floor, repeatedly kicked by a masked man. According to the report, “the attack marks the fifth in the past two months against elderly Armenian women,” one of whom lost an eye. Elsewhere, pastors of church congregations with as little as 20 people are targeted for killing and spat upon in the streets. A 12-year-old Christian boy was beaten by his teacher and harassed by students for wearing a cross around his neck, and three Christians were “satanically tortured” before having their throats slit for publishing Bibles.

    Outside of Turkey, what is happening to the Christians of today from one end of the Muslim world to the other is a reflection of what happened to the Armenian Christians of yesterday. We can learn about the past by looking at the present. From Indonesia in the east to Morocco in the west, from Central Asia in the north, to sub-Sahara Africa—that is, throughout the entire Islamic world—Muslims are, to varying degrees, persecuting, killing, raping, enslaving, torturing and dislocating Christians. See my new book, Crucified Again: Exposing Islam’s New War on Christians for a comprehensive account of one of the greatest—yet, like the Armenian Genocide, little known—atrocities of our times.

    Here is one relevant example to help appreciate the patterns and parallels: in Muslim-majority northern Nigeria, Muslims, led by the Islamic organization, Boko Haram (“Western Education is Forbidden”) are waging a bloody jihad on the Christian minorities in their midst. These two groups—black Nigerian Muslims and black Nigerian Christians—are identical in all ways except, of course, for being Muslims and Christians. And what is Boko Haram’s objective in all this carnage? To cleanse northern Nigeria of all Christians—a goal rather reminiscent of Ottoman policies of cleansing Turkey of all Christians, whether Armenian, Assyrian, or Greek.

    How does one explain this similar pattern of Christian persecution—this desire to be cleansed of Christians—in lands so different from one another as Nigeria and Turkey, lands which share neither race, language, nor culture, which share only Islam? Meanwhile, the modern Islamic world’s response to the persecution of Christians is identical to Turkey’s response to the Armenian Genocide: Denial.

    Finally, to understand how the historic Armenian Genocide is representative of the modern day plight of Christians under Islam, one need only read the following words written in 1918 by President Theodore Roosevelt—but read “Armenian” as “Christian” and “Turkish” as “Islamic”:
    http://www.raymondibrahim.com/islam/...matters-today/

    What was that point you were making about Turkey earlair Dawg?

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    Ya Zu what happen to we only deal with current events on this forum? turkey is very different now than it was in 1915.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    If you read the whole story Dawg you'd see that history is repeating itself in Turkey and every virtually every other place a Muslim majority exists. Go peddle Bibles on the corner anywhere in the Muslim world and see what happens. Wear a cross and tell people "Jesus loves you" as they walk by, and you'll either be assualted killed or imprisoned.

    Other religions (if Islam even deserves that designation) aren't doing this. You can have a play called "Book of Mormon " on Broadway and no one is going to get killed. Meanwhile a stupid internet clip that virtually no one has seen, about the prophet of Islam has forced the actors of that play to go underground for fear of their life.

    South Park regularly depicts Jesus as a character on the show, they even had one recent episode that had him on steriods. ( it was hiliarious by the way ) no one was threatened. Yeah some are pissed off, some want boycotts, but no Christain infadah's have been issued. Meanwhile there's been one time South Park has been censored by Comedy Central when they did an episode on religion. Guess which religion it was?
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    If you read the whole story Dawg you'd see that history is repeating itself in Turkey and every virtually every other place a Muslim majority exists. Go peddle Bibles on the corner anywhere in the Muslim world and see what happens. Wear a cross and tell people "Jesus loves you" as they walk by, and you'll either be assualted killed or imprisoned.

    Other religions (if Islam even deserves that designation) aren't doing this. You can have a play called "Book of Mormon " on Broadway and no one is going to get killed. Meanwhile a stupid internet clip that virtually no one has seen, about the prophet of Islam has forced the actors of that play to go underground for fear of their life.

    South Park regularly depicts Jesus as a character on the show, they even had one recent episode that had him on steriods. ( it was hiliarious by the way ) no one was threatened. Yeah some are pissed off, some want boycotts, but no Christain infadah's have been issued. Meanwhile there's been one time South Park has been censored by Comedy Central when they did an episode on religion. Guess which religion it was?
    http://www.todayszaman.com/news-2667...christmas.html

    heres what the country does about christians. Because despite the radicals and extremist most people just want to live their lives in peace and could really care less what the other person believes.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Let me put it this way. When was the last time you saw an organized group of "moderate" Muslims rally to the defense of anything other than Islam?
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Let me put it this way. When was the last time you saw an organized group of "moderate" Muslims rally to the defense of anything other than Islam?
    http://www.examiner.com/article/musl...violence-egypt

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by X-Terminator View Post
    And just for the record, simply having a contrary opinion in and of itself is NOT trolling. It may be like banging your head off a brick wall in frustration, but it isn't trolling. If you want to continue to frustrate yourself by arguing with someone whose mind is clearly closed, you can do that, but if you drive yourself nuts, it's your own fault.
    I wholeheartedly agree with every word of this ^^^^

    Steeldawg, a few days ago I posted in another thread that I enjoy getting into discussions with you because you usually have views opposite of most posters here. I still feel that way. As X-T said, having a different opinion doesn't make someone a troll. And contrary to what others might suggest, I don't think you're a troll. But you really do need to learn to admit when you're wrong. There's nothing wrong with admitting that you're wrong, especially when it's obvious that you are. EVERY person here has been wrong in a debate on this board. Trust me, there's no shame in admitting that you're wrong about something.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree with every word of this ^^^^

    Steeldawg, a few days ago I posted in another thread that I enjoy getting into discussions with you because you usually have views opposite of most posters here. I still feel that way. As X-T said, having a different opinion doesn't make someone a troll. And contrary to what others might suggest, I don't think you're a troll. But you really do need to learn to admit when you're wrong. There's nothing wrong with admitting that you're wrong, especially when it's obvious that you are. EVERY person here has been wrong in a debate on this board. Trust me, there's no shame in admitting that you're wrong about something.
    Subliminal messaging at it's best!
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree with every word of this ^^^^

    Steeldawg, a few days ago I posted in another thread that I enjoy getting into discussions with you because you usually have views opposite of most posters here. I still feel that way. As X-T said, having a different opinion doesn't make someone a troll. And contrary to what others might suggest, I don't think you're a troll. But you really do need to learn to admit when you're wrong. There's nothing wrong with admitting that you're wrong, especially when it's obvious that you are. EVERY person here has been wrong in a debate on this board. Trust me, there's no shame in admitting that you're wrong about something.
    I will admit when im wrong, when I'm wrong but untill then i will defend my position. Let me ask you wallace, do you think its a fact that people rarely convert out of islam because anyone who converts out of islam is killed? I will tell you its not a fact, many people convert out islam everyday and many people convert to islam everyday just take a look at the numbers http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/People_Who_Left_Islam.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    I will admit when im wrong, when I'm wrong but untill then i will defend my position. Let me ask you wallace, do you think its a fact that people rarely convert out of islam because anyone who converts out of islam is killed? I will tell you its not a fact, many people convert out islam everyday and many people convert to islam everyday just take a look at the numbers http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/People_Who_Left_Islam.
    That link is bs, and contradicts your point even if it isn't.

    Where's the documentation? So what if Christain missionary's claim that there's 6 muillion converts a year? That's their thing. Mayb be true, but how would you know? Since when are you taking the word of Christians on anything? Particularly one's with a motivation to skew the numbers a bit.

    And second, a preponderance of those supposed converts are "secret convets" "Millions" of them in fact. Why are they secret? Because they know their life is in jeapordy if they are open about their conversion! Point proven against you dawg either way!
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    That link is bs, and contradicts your point even if it isn't.

    Where's the documentation? So what if Christain missionary's claim that there's 6 muillion converts a year? That's their thing. Mayb be true, but how would you know? Since when are you taking the word of Christians on anything? Particularly one's with a motivation to skew the numbers a bit.

    And second, a preponderance of those supposed converts are "secret convets" "Millions" of them in fact. Why are they secret? Because they know their life is in jeapordy if they are open about their conversion! Point proven against you dawg either way!
    lol i love how you have no idea what your talking about but feel the need to declare victory after every post.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Conversion rate of 1/2 or 1 percent. This for a "religion" derived from a Prophet who can best be decribed as having led the life of a sociopath?

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    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    lol i love how you have no idea what your talking about but feel the need to declare victory after every post.
    I love how you're oblivious of how stupid you come off on this thread.

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    The number of Muslim-born converts to Christianity in Egypt, who are keeping their faith secret, has reached several million. Due to the State Security's persecution, torture and rape,
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Conversion rate of 1/2 or 1 percent. This for a "religion" derived from a Prophet who can best be decribed as having led the life of a sociopath?

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    I love how you're oblivious of how stupid you come off on this thread.

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    The number of Muslim-born converts to Christianity in Egypt, who are keeping their faith secret, has reached several million. Due to the State Security's persecution, torture and rape,
    how do you know its millions if its a secret?

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    how do you know its millions if its a secret?
    Quoted from your link dawg. You tell me
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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