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Thread: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/...-accept-islam/


    While imprisoning pianist Fazil Say for denigrating religion through comments he made on Twitter and handed down a 10-month suspended prison sentence, forbidding churches to operate in their country, and converting the historical cathedral Hagia Sophia into a mosque to eradicate signs of Christianity completely, Turkey accuses Europe of intolerance and demands tolerance for Muslims in the West… What a farce.

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    Mosque conversion raises alarm
    Christian art in Byzantine church-turned-museum is at risk after controversial court ruling
    One of the most important monuments of late Byzantium, the 13th-century Church of Hagia Sophia in the Black Sea city of Trabzon, which is now a museum, will be converted into a mosque, after a legal battle that has dramatic implications for other major historical sites in Turkey. Many in Turkey believe that the Church of Hagia Sophia is a stalking horse for the possible re-conversion of its more famous namesake in Istanbul, the Hagia Sophia Museum (Ayasofya Müzesi).
    For around 50 years, responsibility for the Church of Hagia Sophia in Trabzon has rested with Turkey’s Ministry of Culture and Tourism. The courts now accept the claim made by the General Directorate of Pious Foundations, the government body responsible for most of the country’s historical mosques, that this has been an “illegal occupation”. The court has ruled that Hagia Sophia is an inalienable part of the foundation of Sultan Mehmed II who first turned the church into a mosque after his conquest of the Empire of Trebizond in 1462.

    “A building covenanted as a mosque cannot be used for any other purpose,” says Mazhar Yildirimhan, the head of the directorate’s office in Trabzon. He declined to speculate on whether this would mean covering up nearly half the wall space taken up with figurative Christian art, including the dome depicting a dynamic Christ Pantocrator. “There are modern techniques for masking the walls,” he says.

    The church was rescued from dereliction (it had been used variously as an arsenal and a cholera hospital) between 1958 and 1962 by the University of Edinburgh under the direction of David Talbot Rice and David Winfield. This included restoring the original ground plan and removing a prayer niche constructed into an exterior porch. The church also has an exterior frieze depicting “the Fall of Man”.

    “It is the whole ensemble—architecture, sculpture and painting—that makes Hagia Sophia unique,” says Antony Eastmond of London’s Courtauld Institute of Art, who is an authority on the building. “This is the most complete surviving Byzantine structure; there is no 13th-century monument like it.”

    Concern for the building is prompted by the fate of Istanbul’s Arab Mosque—originally a 14th-century Dominican church—also administered by the directorate. An earthquake in 1999 shook loose plaster from the vaults revealing frescoes and mosaics. The conservation of these paintings was finished last year but they were immediately re-covered.

    Like its namesake in Trabzon, Hagia Sophia in Istanbul was also turned into a mosque, after Mehmed II’s conquest of the city in 1453. It was famously made into a museum in 1935 by cabinet decree—unlike the informal arrangement in Trabzon. The re-conversion of Istanbul’s Hagia Sophia into a mosque has long been the “golden apple” sought by Turkey’s religious right.

    For such a thing to happen would have major implications for the country’s standing as a custodian of world heritage, according to one senior Western diplomat based in Istanbul.

    Yet already the current government has been working on a list of historical properties administered by the Hagia Sophia Museum. In January, Istanbul’s oldest surviving church, the fifth-century St John Stoudios, which became the Imrahor Mosque in the 15th century before fire and earthquake left it in ruins, was transferred from the Ministry of Culture and Tourism to the General Directorate, which plans to rebuild it as a mosque.
    http://www.theartnewspaper.com/articles/Mosque-conversion-raises-alarm/29200
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Country of Concern: ‘Pro-Islamist’ Turkey Suppressing Christian Worship

    “ISTANBUL, Turkey — On April 18, 2007, three Christians were bound to their chairs, tortured, and stabbed repeatedly at a Bible print shop in Malatya — their throats slit.

    Five years have now passed since the Malatya murders, an incident that was perhaps the most tragic and brutal murder of Christians in modern-day Turkey.

    Today, believers are facing increased persecution and the country is gradually moving away from secularism.

    ‘You see everyday is April 18. Everyday I have to live without him,’ widow Susanne Geske told CBN News on the one year anniversary of her husband’s murder.

    Five suspects went on trial for killing the men, but there is still no conviction…

    Church attendance dropped immediately after the Malatya incident. And although attendance is now growing again, so are the number of attacks against Christians.

    The Protestant churches of Turkey documented 12 attacks in 2011. This included the beating of Christians for sharing their faith with Muslims.

    No one has been prosecuted for any of these crimes, putting Turkey on the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom’s list of ‘countries of particular concern’ (CPC) for the first time.

    Nina Shea, one of the commissioners supporting that move, said the Turkish government is suppressing Christian worship, and as a result Christian numbers are dwindling.

    ‘They comprise 0.15 percent of the entire population of Turkey,’ Shea said. ‘They are very frail, and we’re going to see them vanish in our lifetime if Turkey doesn’t lift its dense web of regulations and give them religious freedom.’

    http://midnightwatcher.wordpress.com...stian-worship/

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    Despite the EU’s demands on human rights, Turkey’s persecution of Christians is escalating

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/07/27/despite-the-eu%E2%80%99s-demands-on-human-rights-turkey%E2%80%99s-persecution-of-christians-is-escalating/

    There is little doubt that the Turkish government’s anti-Christian policies have a good deal of popular support: this is, quite simply, an anti-Christian culture (and therefore incompatible, I would argue, with the European culture it claims to want to be part of). About the same time as the incident at Meryem Ana, a survey showed that more than half of the population of Turkey opposes members of other religions being allowed to hold meetings or to publish materials explaining their faith. The survey also found that almost 40 per cent of the population of Turkey said they had “very negative” or “negative” views of Christians.

    This is a problem with a long and violent history, which has in no way moderated in recent decades: ponder for a moment the state-sponsored and state-orchestrated Istanbul pogrom of September 1955, which was directed primarily at Istanbul’s Greek minority.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Muslims can leave their faith its called apostasy, eventhough the quran calls for the death of muslims who leave the faith its not really practiced anymore only by fundamentalists, but they will excommunicate. Its the same as the christian religion it calls for the death of anyone who leaves the faith (Deuteronomy 13:6-10) but christian dont generally practice it but im sure it has happened.
    Dawg, you tried to equivocate other religions stance on Apostasy with Islam. You were clearly wrong.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/...-accept-islam/


    While imprisoning pianist Fazil Say for denigrating religion through comments he made on Twitter and handed down a 10-month suspended prison sentence, forbidding churches to operate in their country, and converting the historical cathedral Hagia Sophia into a mosque to eradicate signs of Christianity completely, Turkey accuses Europe of intolerance and demands tolerance for Muslims in the West… What a farce.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Mosque conversion raises alarm
    Christian art in Byzantine church-turned-museum is at risk after controversial court ruling
    One of the most important monuments of late Byzantium, the 13th-century Church of Hagia Sophia in the Black Sea city of Trabzon, which is now a museum, will be converted into a mosque, after a legal battle that has dramatic implications for other major historical sites in Turkey. Many in Turkey believe that the Church of Hagia Sophia is a stalking horse for the possible re-conversion of its more famous namesake in Istanbul, the Hagia Sophia Museum (Ayasofya Müzesi).
    For around 50 years, responsibility for the Church of Hagia Sophia in Trabzon has rested with Turkey’s Ministry of Culture and Tourism. The courts now accept the claim made by the General Directorate of Pious Foundations, the government body responsible for most of the country’s historical mosques, that this has been an “illegal occupation”. The court has ruled that Hagia Sophia is an inalienable part of the foundation of Sultan Mehmed II who first turned the church into a mosque after his conquest of the Empire of Trebizond in 1462.

    “A building covenanted as a mosque cannot be used for any other purpose,” says Mazhar Yildirimhan, the head of the directorate’s office in Trabzon. He declined to speculate on whether this would mean covering up nearly half the wall space taken up with figurative Christian art, including the dome depicting a dynamic Christ Pantocrator. “There are modern techniques for masking the walls,” he says.

    The church was rescued from dereliction (it had been used variously as an arsenal and a cholera hospital) between 1958 and 1962 by the University of Edinburgh under the direction of David Talbot Rice and David Winfield. This included restoring the original ground plan and removing a prayer niche constructed into an exterior porch. The church also has an exterior frieze depicting “the Fall of Man”.

    “It is the whole ensemble—architecture, sculpture and painting—that makes Hagia Sophia unique,” says Antony Eastmond of London’s Courtauld Institute of Art, who is an authority on the building. “This is the most complete surviving Byzantine structure; there is no 13th-century monument like it.”

    Concern for the building is prompted by the fate of Istanbul’s Arab Mosque—originally a 14th-century Dominican church—also administered by the directorate. An earthquake in 1999 shook loose plaster from the vaults revealing frescoes and mosaics. The conservation of these paintings was finished last year but they were immediately re-covered.

    Like its namesake in Trabzon, Hagia Sophia in Istanbul was also turned into a mosque, after Mehmed II’s conquest of the city in 1453. It was famously made into a museum in 1935 by cabinet decree—unlike the informal arrangement in Trabzon. The re-conversion of Istanbul’s Hagia Sophia into a mosque has long been the “golden apple” sought by Turkey’s religious right.

    For such a thing to happen would have major implications for the country’s standing as a custodian of world heritage, according to one senior Western diplomat based in Istanbul.

    Yet already the current government has been working on a list of historical properties administered by the Hagia Sophia Museum. In January, Istanbul’s oldest surviving church, the fifth-century St John Stoudios, which became the Imrahor Mosque in the 15th century before fire and earthquake left it in ruins, was transferred from the Ministry of Culture and Tourism to the General Directorate, which plans to rebuild it as a mosque.
    http://www.theartnewspaper.com/artic...es-alarm/29200
    http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist...or-turkey.html
    http://www.hagiasophia.co/

    Doesnt really sound like they are trying to erradicate any religion in turkey as they are developing a new constitution and is moving towards democracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Dawg, you tried to equivocate other religions stance on Apostasy with Islam. You were clearly wrong.
    where post what i wrote

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    No its common for fundamentalists and extremists its not common for muslims not all muslims are extreme fundamentalists, christians live in islamic countrys hell the even have churches there. It depends on where you are if your in east asia america bangladesh somwhere where its not a theocracy run by fundamentalist madmen you can convert and your fellow muslims wont kill you. His comment was a generalization that you cant leave islam or you die which is simply not true people around the world leave islam everyday.
    His comments are very true. People from every corner of the globe are terrified to leave Islam because of the potential consequenses to them or their family members. I've posted numerous accounts of the repurcussions that have come from people leaving or trying to leave the Muslim faith. You just refuse to see it.

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    Dawg you just keep changing the argument rather than admit you're wrong. Or worse yet admit someone else may be right.

    and believe me I'm far from alone in this opinion
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    His comments are very true. People from every corner of the globe are terrified to leave Islam because of the potential consequenses to them or their family members. I've posted numerous accounts of the repurcussions that have come from people leaving or trying to leave the Muslim faith. You just refuse to see it.
    SImply not true people convert all the time from islam, and his comments said you cant leave islam or you will be killed also not true. There are only 15 countrys where apostasy is illegal and only 9 where its punishable by death, so the asserstion that globally people will be killed if they leave islam is false. Also that comment you posted doesnt show anywhere where i tried equivicate religions stance on apstosy. The only religions i compared where islam and christianity which both have passages in their doctrine about killing people how leave the religion. I in know way said that apostasy was a general practice of christianity.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    SImply not true people convert all the time from islam, and his comments said you cant leave islam or you will be killed also not true. There are only 15 countrys where apostasy is illegal and only 9 where its punishable by death, so the asserstion that globally people will be killed if they leave islam is false. Also that comment you posted doesnt show anywhere where i tried equivicate religions stance on apstosy. The only religions i compared where islam and christianity which both have passages in their doctrine about killing people how leave the religion. I in know way said that apostasy was a general practice of christianity.
    You saying it doesn't make it true. It's very rare. Muslims don't convert or openly question the faith because it's dangerous and Maher simply pointed that out.

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    Oh look that Muslim is becoming a Catholic! And now another convert, and another one! Gee you're right dawg, happens all the time.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    The only religions i compared where islam and christianity which both have passages in their doctrine about killing people how leave the religion.
    Please enlighten me where in Christian doctrine it states to kill believers that leave the religion. Facts only please. Not opinions. No sidetracks.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    You saying it doesn't make it true. It's very rare. Muslims don't convert or openly question the faith because it's dangerous and Maher simply pointed that out.

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    Oh look that Muslim is becoming a Catholic! And now another convert, and another one! Gee you're right dawg, happens all the time.
    Your are completely wrong.

    http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/...-christianity/
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Sta...s_(Population)

    Is millions per year enough proof for you, you really need to stop living in your bubble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Steeler View Post
    Please enlighten me where in Christian doctrine it states to kill believers that leave the religion. Facts only please. Not opinions. No sidetracks.
    do you consider the bible christian doctrine?

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    One of the Church of England's most senior bishops is warning that people will die unless Muslim leaders in Britain speak out in defence of the right to change faith.
    Michael Nazir-Ali, the Bishop of Rochester, whose father converted from Islam to Christianity in Pakistan, says he is looking to Muslim leaders in Britain to 'uphold basic civil liberties, including the right for people to believe what they wish to believe and to even change their beliefs if they wish to do so'.

    Some Islamic texts brand Muslims who convert to other faiths as 'apostates' and call for them to be punished. Seven of the world's 57 Islamic states - including Iran - impose the death penalty for conversion.

    Now Ali, who some see as a potential Archbishop of Canterbury, has told Channel 4's Dispatches programme of his fears about the safety of the estimated 3,000 Muslims who have converted to other faiths in Britain.

    'It is very common in the world today, including in this country, for people who have changed their faith, particularly from being Muslim to being Christian, to be ostracised, to lose their job, for their marriages to be dissolved, for children to be taken away,' Ali said. 'And this is why some leadership is necessary from Muslim leaders themselves to say that this is not what Islam teaches.'

    The bishop warns that Muslims who switch faiths in Britain could be killed if the current climate continues. 'We have seen honour killings have happened, and there is no reason why this kind of thing cannot happen.'

    In 2004, Prince Charles asked British Muslim leaders to renounce laws of apostasy and the death sentence for converts in Islamic countries, but no public statement was ever made.

    Dispatches obtained Islamic texts sold in Britain that say the punishment for apostasy is death - according to all four schools of Islamic jurisprudence. One text called for Muslims to cut off the head of those who reject Islam.

    The radical Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir, which some in Britain want to see banned, states in its constitution that in countries that practise Sharia law, apostates are to be executed. Its message is disseminated on university campuses across Britain and has found a following among a minority of young Muslims.

    A poll of more than 1,000 British Muslims, conducted by the Policy Exchange think-tank this year, found that 36 per cent of Muslims aged between 16 and 24 believe those who convert to another faith should be punished by death.

    Sheikh Mogra, a senior member of the Muslim Council for Britain, told Dispatches: 'We live in a country where we respect people's choices. It is not right for any British Muslim to harm in any way whatsoever; to bully them, to intimidate them, to threaten them, is all against Muslim law.'

    One convert interviewed for the programme told how his local Muslim community in Bradford closed ranks against him after he switched to Christianity. 'They told me categorically had I been in an Islamic country - Pakistan, Middle East - that they would actually be the first to chop off my head,' he said.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/se...on.anglicanism

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    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Your are completely wrong.

    http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/...-christianity/
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Sta...s_(Population)

    Is millions per year enough proof for you, you really need to stop living in your bubble.

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    do you consider the bible christian doctrine?
    Did you even read what you linked? Those numbers, don't hold up and also include "secret converts" in Egypt. Wanna guess why they convert secretly?

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    The number of Muslim-born converts to Christianity in Egypt, who are keeping their faith secret, has reached several million. Due to the State Security’s persecution, torture and rape, they have established outside Egypt an organization called “Freed by Christ” as well as “Way TV” to speak on their behalf to the West, and expose their sufferings at the hands of State Security. It is headed by the Christian convert Dr. Mohamad Rahouna, ex-dean of the Faculty of Arabic Studies, Minya University, who fled to the United States.
    From your link dawg. Yeah you're really proving your point.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    do you consider the bible christian doctrine?
    You're the expert. What to do you think?

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Steeler View Post
    You're the expert. What to do you think?
    Well i would think if your a christian than you believe the bible to be true and the word of god. In that case:

    (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

    Luke 19:27

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Yeah millions of converts every year. Just most of them keep it secret. Because they don't want to fucking die!
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Yeah millions of converts every year. Just most of them keep it secret. Because they don't want to fucking die!
    whats the weather like in that bubble?

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Remember when the Pope ordered all converts away from the church to be executed?

    Me either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    whats the weather like in that bubble?
    Fine. What's it like in the imaginary world that you live in?

    The number of Muslim-born converts to Christianity in Egypt, who are keeping their faith secret, has reached several million. Due to the State Security’s persecution, torture and rape
    , From your link not mine.

    But it does certainly make my case.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Umm excsuse me "Preach" but is dueteronomy part of the holy bible? Is that not the same bible christians regard as the word of god? The same god who is also jesus? Sorry but you cant just pick and choose which parts of the rekligion you would like to apply. But hey lets take it from jesus mouth.

    Luke 19:27 (see 19:11-27)

    "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me."

    I dont think it gets much clearer than that.
    On Deuteronomy: you're very far off the mark and thus, taking a text completely out of context when it comes to the Christian faith. No, no Christian believes that we should "Kill the unbeliever," because we understand that Jesus fulfilled the law. Paul calls it a harsh taskmaster that we are no longer under. In short, because of Jesus, the law has been fulfilled and is no longer binding. The entire reason FOR the law was to teach that man cannot be righteous in and of himself and therefore, needed something more than the law itself. It therefore was meant to be a temporary until the permanent came, just like the temple. I would advise you to read the book of Hebrews to get a better understanding of the transition from one to the other.

    On Luke 19:27; are you serious? I promise, I'm not trying to belittle you here, but this is a parable about a nobleman that went to be crowned a king, and the way he dealt with those who tried to stop him from being king. It has nothing to do with what we are discussing in this thread. So, either you're serious, at which point I would rather take this into a PM so we can discuss exegeting scripture, or you already know that and you're purposefully twisting the text, in which case you've invalidated your own arguments because you've proven that you will not treat your sources with the respect they deserve (author's intent in this case).


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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Gee what a shock! Steeldawg posting distortions, fabrication, and halftruths.

    Of course you can prove him wrong 100 times over and he still wont admit it.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by Preacher View Post
    On Deuteronomy: you're very far off the mark and thus, taking a text completely out of context when it comes to the Christian faith. No, no Christian believes that we should "Kill the unbeliever," because we understand that Jesus fulfilled the law. Paul calls it a harsh taskmaster that we are no longer under. In short, because of Jesus, the law has been fulfilled and is no longer binding. The entire reason FOR the law was to teach that man cannot be righteous in and of himself and therefore, needed something more than the law itself. It therefore was meant to be a temporary until the permanent came, just like the temple. I would advise you to read the book of Hebrews to get a better understanding of the transition from one to the other.

    On Luke 19:27; are you serious? I promise, I'm not trying to belittle you here, but this is a parable about a nobleman that went to be crowned a king, and the way he dealt with those who tried to stop him from being king. It has nothing to do with what we are discussing in this thread. So, either you're serious, at which point I would rather take this into a PM so we can discuss exegeting scripture, or you already know that and you're purposefully twisting the text, in which case you've invalidated your own arguments because you've proven that you will not treat your sources with the respect they deserve (author's intent in this case).
    No way would I argue religion with a guy who has a Ph.D in it. That's like bringing a squirt gun to a gunfight. And it's also asking to get owned, like Preacher has done in spades here.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Steeldawg, are you Muslim?

    I wouldn't consider myself religious, although it isn't due to lack of desire. I studied religion at length in college and have tried to read religious texts on my own since. I'm certainly no expert on religion, and do not favor any one set of beliefs over another beyond obvious exclusions (scientology, devil worship, cults). So I consider myself truly unbiased in considering this. And just from my perspective, I'll say that from what I've seen, post-crusades Christianity hasn't produced anywhere near the type of violence that Islam has. On a worldwide scale, certainly in modern times, the Muslim faith has been plagued by poverty and death which has led to hate which has led to violence. Are there instances of Christians committing acts of hate, sometimes violent, in the name of Christ? Certainly. But I believe Zulater when he says he could produce a ratio of 100 to 1 when comparing violent crimes of Christians against Muslims acted in the name of religion.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
    No way would I argue religion with a guy who has a Ph.D in it. That's like bringing a squirt gun to a gunfight. And it's also asking to get owned, like Preacher has done in spades here.
    You wouldn't, I wouldn't, but I got a feeling someone will.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    You wouldn't, I wouldn't, but I got a feeling someone will.
    Gotta get my out for this one.


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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    steeldawg, Preacher has responded for me. I will not engage further.

    I am sure you take great delight in ruffling everyone's feathers. I would just ask everyone to ignore your posts. You have become irrelevant to me, however, I do have to still read your posts as one of my duties on this board.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Muslims can leave their faith its called apostasy, eventhough the quran calls for the death of muslims who leave the faith its not really practiced anymore only by fundamentalists, but they will excommunicate. Its the same as the christian religion it calls for the death of anyone who leaves the faith (Deuteronomy 13:6-10) but christian dont generally practice it but im sure it has happened.
    Here's where dawg came into this thread. Let's take this line by line.

    Muslims can leave their faith its called apostasy, eventhough the quran calls for the death of muslims who leave the faith its not really practiced anymore Patently false. It's practiced quite frequently. Virtually every day in the world an apostate or a member of their family is punished for leaving the faith. If you don't believe me I can post 3-7 links a week of current examples as they happen.

    only by fundamentalists, but they will excommunicate.

    But fundamentalists make up a big portion of the faithfull, and they do way more than excommunicate.


    Its the same as the christian religion it calls for the death of anyone who leaves the faith (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

    Preacher has shot this one down to hell.

    but christian dont generally practice How about never! As in Christains never practice it. As it's certainly not part of the modern Christain faith!

    but im sure it has happened.


    Reference the OP, this thread deals with modern times, not things that happened decades or centuries ago. So that either disqualifies that statement, or you need to provide a recent example of Christain corporal punishment to an apostate.

    You tried to equivicate, you claimed Maher was wrong. But he wasn't. You were.
    Last edited by zulater; 04-23-2013 at 08:46 AM.
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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
    No way would I argue religion with a guy who has a Ph.D in it. That's like bringing a squirt gun to a gunfight. And it's also asking to get owned, like Preacher has done in spades here.
    You're absolutely right. Personally I enjoy it when Preacher breaks out the knowledge.


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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by Preacher View Post
    On Deuteronomy: you're very far off the mark and thus, taking a text completely out of context when it comes to the Christian faith. No, no Christian believes that we should "Kill the unbeliever," because we understand that Jesus fulfilled the law. Paul calls it a harsh taskmaster that we are no longer under. In short, because of Jesus, the law has been fulfilled and is no longer binding. The entire reason FOR the law was to teach that man cannot be righteous in and of himself and therefore, needed something more than the law itself. It therefore was meant to be a temporary until the permanent came, just like the temple. I would advise you to read the book of Hebrews to get a better understanding of the transition from one to the other.

    On Luke 19:27; are you serious? I promise, I'm not trying to belittle you here, but this is a parable about a nobleman that went to be crowned a king, and the way he dealt with those who tried to stop him from being king. It has nothing to do with what we are discussing in this thread. So, either you're serious, at which point I would rather take this into a PM so we can discuss exegeting scripture, or you already know that and you're purposefully twisting the text, in which case you've invalidated your own arguments because you've proven that you will not treat your sources with the respect they deserve (author's intent in this case).
    Its not taken out of context its directly in context, I know the story of the fulfilment of the law, but it was still ordered by god (who is also jesus) to kill apostates, it is part of the bible which is the doctrine for the religion, the Ten commandments are also part of mosiac law but every christian loves to tout those. In fact many christians want this to be a christian nation because they believe the ten commandments where used as the foundation. Not to mention the fact the denying god and jesus gets thrown into a realm of eternal torture. Also christians arguing that homosexuality is a sin, which was in mosaic law not in christs law, but christians argue that the bible says its a sin in gods eyes. It is a clear cut case of cherry picking.

    Now 19:27

    Duh, I know its a parable Its a parable describing himself to his disciples, thats the moral of the parable, Its perfectly relevant to the discussion.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'



    Give a lib a fish--he eats for a day

    Teach a lib to fish--he is back the next day asking for more free fish.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Here's where dawg came into this thread. Let's take this line by line.

    Muslims can leave their faith its called apostasy, eventhough the quran calls for the death of muslims who leave the faith its not really practiced anymore Patently false. It's practiced quite frequently. Virtually every day in the world an apostate or a member of their family is punished for leaving the faith. If you don't believe me I can post 3-7 links a week of current examples as they happen.

    only by fundamentalists, but they will excommunicate.

    But fundamentalists make up a big portion of the faithfull, and they do way more than excommunicate.


    Its the same as the christian religion it calls for the death of anyone who leaves the faith (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)

    Preacher has shot this one down to hell.

    but christian dont generally practice How about never! As in Christains never practice it. As it's certainly not part of the modern Christain faith!

    but im sure it has happened.


    Reference the OP, this thread deals with modern times, not things that happened decades or centuries ago. So that either disqualifies that statement, or you need to provide a recent example of Christain corporal punishment to an apostate.

    You tried to equivicate, you claimed Maher was wrong. But he wasn't. You were.
    Islam

    Main articles: Apostasy in Islam and Takfir

    See also: Mutaween

    In Islam, apostasy is called "ridda" ("turning back") and is considered to be a profound insult to God. A person born of Muslim parents who rejects Islam is called a "murtad fitri" (natural apostate), and a person who converted to Islam and later rejects the religion is called a "murtad milli" (apostate from the community).[40][unreliable source?] The field of ex-Muslim studies is interested in analysing and studying the motives and thought and politics or such apostates from Islam.

    According to some scholars, if a Muslim consciously and without coercion declares their rejection of Islam and does not change their mind after the time allocated by a judge for research, then the penalty for male apostates is death, and for women life imprisonment. However, this view has been rejected by some modern Muslim scholars (e.g. Hasan al-Turabi), who argue that the hadith in question should be taken to apply only to political betrayal of the Muslim community, rather than to apostasy in general.[41] These scholars regard apostasy as a serious crime, but argue for the freedom to convert to and from Islam without legal penalty, and consider the aforementioned Hadith quotation as insufficient justification for capital punishment. Today, apostasy is illegal in most Muslim countries, and is subject in some countries, such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, to the death penalty, although executions for apostasy are rare. Apostasy is legal in secular Muslim countries such as Turkey, although apostates rarely escape persecution in the public domain and by officialdom.[42]
    The hadith is quoted both by supporters of the death penalty and critics of Islam. Some Islamic scholars[who?] point out it is important to understand the hadith in its proper historical context: it was written when the nascent Muslim community in Medina was fighting for its existence, and the enemies of Islam encouraged rebellion and discord within the community.[43] At that time, any defection would have had serious consequences for the Muslims, and the hadith may well be about treason, rather than just apostasy. Under the terms of the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah any Muslim who returned to Mecca was not to be returned, terms which the Prophet accepted.

    See now your changing the wording, the original post was about people being killed for apostasy now your saying punished, agian death for apostasy is rare in islam its onlt practiced by fundamentalists. Also converting out of islam is not rare you are flat out lying. Im sure you can post links but again its killing by extremists not by law, exectutions by law are very rare for apostasy in moden islam. And again my arguement still stands on death to apostates in christianity see my rebuttal to preach. Your wrong there are christian terror groups that will kill you for apostasy and will also force you to converty at gunpoint but again these are fundamentalist. I didnt claim maher was wrong i didnt even claim that the violence between the 2 religions were equal, you keep telling me i claimed all these things that i have not, stop with your strawman arguements. And regardless if apostates were killed decades ago or yesterday what does it matter it was still christians killing apostates.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Christians had the Crusades, Islam has the Jihad. Never heard of Jesus or Muhammad killing anyone though. But the Hebrew G-d of Abraham and Moses will drown you in a flood or turn you into a pile of salt in a heart beat...lol.

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Islam

    Main articles: Apostasy in Islam and Takfir

    See also: Mutaween

    In Islam, apostasy is called "ridda" ("turning back") and is considered to be a profound insult to God. A person born of Muslim parents who rejects Islam is called a "murtad fitri" (natural apostate), and a person who converted to Islam and later rejects the religion is called a "murtad milli" (apostate from the community).[40][unreliable source?] The field of ex-Muslim studies is interested in analysing and studying the motives and thought and politics or such apostates from Islam.

    According to some scholars, if a Muslim consciously and without coercion declares their rejection of Islam and does not change their mind after the time allocated by a judge for research, then the penalty for male apostates is death, and for women life imprisonment. However, this view has been rejected by some modern Muslim scholars (e.g. Hasan al-Turabi), who argue that the hadith in question should be taken to apply only to political betrayal of the Muslim community, rather than to apostasy in general.[41] These scholars regard apostasy as a serious crime, but argue for the freedom to convert to and from Islam without legal penalty, and consider the aforementioned Hadith quotation as insufficient justification for capital punishment. Today, apostasy is illegal in most Muslim countries, and is subject in some countries, such as Iran and Saudi Arabia, to the death penalty, although executions for apostasy are rare. Apostasy is legal in secular Muslim countries such as Turkey, although apostates rarely escape persecution in the public domain and by officialdom.[42]
    The hadith is quoted both by supporters of the death penalty and critics of Islam. Some Islamic scholars[who?] point out it is important to understand the hadith in its proper historical context: it was written when the nascent Muslim community in Medina was fighting for its existence, and the enemies of Islam encouraged rebellion and discord within the community.[43] At that time, any defection would have had serious consequences for the Muslims, and the hadith may well be about treason, rather than just apostasy. Under the terms of the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah any Muslim who returned to Mecca was not to be returned, terms which the Prophet accepted.

    See now your changing the wording, the original post was about people being killed for apostasy now your saying punished, agian death for apostasy is rare in islam its onlt practiced by fundamentalists. Also converting out of islam is not rare you are flat out lying. Im sure you can post links but again its killing by extremists not by law, exectutions by law are very rare for apostasy in moden islam. And again my arguement still stands on death to apostates in christianity see my rebuttal to preach. Your wrong there are christian terror groups that will kill you for apostasy and will also force you to converty at gunpoint but again these are fundamentalist. I didnt claim maher was wrong i didnt even claim that the violence between the 2 religions were equal, you keep telling me i claimed all these things that i have not, stop with your strawman arguements. And regardless if apostates were killed decades ago or yesterday what does it matter it was still christians killing apostates.
    Wow you just don't get it do you? Nothing you just wrote has any relevance to this thread. I mean really, you've skirted every issue, so I'm not even going to bother addressing your lies and distortions anymore. .
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Bill Maher: Equating Islamist and Christian Violence is 'Liberal BS'

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerEmpire View Post
    Christians had the Crusades, Islam has the Jihad. Never heard of Jesus or Muhammad killing anyone though. But the Hebrew G-d of Abraham and Moses will drown you in a flood or turn you into a pile of salt in a heart beat...lol.
    To say Muhammad never kiiled anyone would be like saying Hitler never killed anyone. By their own hand, perhaps not. but both personally ordered the slaughter of legions of men, woman and children..
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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