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Thread: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

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    Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    An Iraq War veteran who joined the U.S. Army two days after 9/11 has written a powerful open letter to former President George W. Bush and ex-Vice President Dick Cheney accusing them of war crimes...

    Ouch !!! Well Bush and Cheney are still rich, dude can't even walk (as well as a LONG list of military servicemen and women). Bush and Co lost Colin Powell behind this one as well. GOP has never been the same since.... The biggest blunder in military history...

    LINK: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...154541674.html

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerEmpire View Post
    The biggest blunder in military history...
    That's the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. The biggest blunder in military history? Really? My heart genuinely mourns for the 4 - 5 thousands US troops lost in the conflict, not to mention their loved ones, but calling the invasion of Iraq "the biggest blunder in military history" is irresponsible, uneducated and ignorant of countless wartime disasters long forgotten - and it's borderline disrespectful to hundreds of thousands of persons who have met their demise in "military blunders" that brought on far greater consequences than did the operations that our country has conducted on Iraqi soil. If you disagree with the war in Iraq, that's fine, but don't start making assumptions that anything we've seen in the last decade or two can be described as the "biggest blunder" in all of military history. Tragedy has made appearences on battlefields much larger and much less significant than those fought on at present long, long before the United States ever coined the term Operation Iraqi Freedom.

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    No. That's disrespectful to the troops (like the one in the article) for sending them into combat under a flat out LIE !!! Bush can burn in HELL as far as I'm concerned... I can put names to the guys I knew personally that died over there. A total waste ! No need to lie to start a war. He should have been impeached because of it. Obama "chose" not to file charges on him (and he could have). But Bush can got to hell...

    Oh yea. His family (the Bush's) were partners with the Bin Laden family before the war, and are STILL after the war !!! F-Bush !!!!!!!!

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerEmpire View Post
    No. That's disrespectful to the troops (like the one in the article) for sending them into combat under a flat out LIE !!! Bush can burn in HELL as far as I'm concerned... I can put names to the guys I knew personally that died over there. A total waste ! No need to lie to start a war. He should have been impeached because of it. Obama "chose" not to file charges on him (and he could have). But Bush can got to hell...

    Oh yea. His family (the Bush's) were partners with the Bin Laden family before the war, and are STILL after the war !!! F-Bush !!!!!!!!
    Revisionist history101 must have been you major in school.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Revisionist history101 must have been you major in school.
    Yep. So I concluded: F-Bush !!!!

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerEmpire View Post
    No. That's disrespectful to the troops (like the one in the article) for sending them into combat under a flat out LIE !!! Bush can burn in HELL as far as I'm concerned... I can put names to the guys I knew personally that died over there. A total waste ! No need to lie to start a war. He should have been impeached because of it. Obama "chose" not to file charges on him (and he could have). But Bush can got to hell...

    Oh yea. His family (the Bush's) were partners with the Bin Laden family before the war, and are STILL after the war !!! F-Bush !!!!!!!!

    You're losing credibility fast. Go get your facts straight. You can start with any one of them.

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by NJarhead View Post
    You're losing credibility fast. Go get your facts straight. You can start with any one of them.
    I challenge ANYONE to disprove me on anything... once again, F-Bush !!!!

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerEmpire View Post
    Yep. So I concluded: F-Bush !!!!
    Good for you! Feel better now? Get you a cookie? Now watch and learn.
    Last edited by zulater; 03-21-2013 at 07:51 AM.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    http://startthinkingright.wordpress....istory-part-1/

    In short, the people who wrote these articles blithely comparing what they label American “atrocities” to Saddam’s massive crimes against humanity are moral idiots who could have served in Joseph Goebbel’s Reich Propaganda Office. They are genuinely stupid people, not because they have low IQs (which would amount to an acceptable excuse), but because they are so radically committed to a perverse worldview that they are unable to look beyond their own political causes to see the world either as it really is, or as it really should be. A normal person does not look at what occurred at Abu Ghraib, and what occurred under Saddam Hussein’s vicious, genocidal regime and view them as equivocal. Such people are incapable of experiencing moral outrage beyond their own narcissistic, perverted, narrow-minded ideological agendas.

    There are as many as one million Iraqi people lying dead in unmarked graves as a direct result of Saddam Hussein’s brutal tyranny.

    Jano Rosebiani, a filmmaker of the documentary “Saddam’s Mass Graves” held a press conference with two survivors of Saddam Hussein’s torture and mass murders, and – under the title “Unearthed Mass Graves: Iraqis Coming to Terms with Their Past” – said:

    And I hope these two films will reach the American public, because it is somewhat apparent that there is a lot of misinformation. There are films that are coming out that are actually belittling what has happened to the Iraqi people, how life was under Saddam, and that the American public has the right to know the type of dictator we had, the type of terror we had, who we hope is the last one of his kind. As you see, the past century had a handful of them, and let’s hope Saddam is the last one. But we can only do that if we fully understand the extent of his crimes and we all work together as a human body, as human beings, and help prevent the creation of such dictators. And that could only be possible by removing Saddam. And I think the greatest gift of life that has been given to the Iraqis — myself, I’m an Iraqi Kurd from the north — was the removal of Saddam, because otherwise, the many mass graves we already have in Iraq — we have an Iraq of 22 million people sitting on mass graves — there would have been tenfold more for the many years to come.

    Those who trivialize Saddam Hussein’s brutality and emphasize the United States’ complicity with evil do so because a realization of the true extent of Saddam Hussein’s genocide would become a defacto justification for the invasion – and they will not allow that. But the fact remains: Saddam Hussein was so completely evil that he would pose a threat to the world as long as he remained in power. We were right to remove such a monster.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I found an article that was eye-opening in terms of what we knew, what we thought we knew, and what we believed but could never hope to verify, concerning what was going on in secretive, totalitarian Iraq in the years immediately preceding the second American invasion in 2003. Sorry to inform you liberals, but it comes right out of your own crew over over at PBS.

    From 1991 to 1998 UNSCOM and IAEA carried out numerous inspections in Iraq, but with varying degrees of success.

    For the first few years, Iraqi officials failed to disclose much of their special weapons programs to the inspectors. In 1995, Saddam Hussein’s son-in-law Kamel Hussein defected. He had been in charge of the bioweapons program and revealed to UNSCOM that there was a vast arsenal of weapons they had failed to uncover, including biological weapons, and described how the Iraqis were hiding them. This was a breakthrough for the inspection teams, and they continued their work until 1998, when Iraq blocked further access and expelled UNSCOM…

    In summary, the IAEA report says that following the August 1990 invasion of Kuwait, Iraq launched a “crash program” to develop a nuclear weapon quickly by extracting weapons grade material from safe-guarded research reactor fuel. This project, if it had continued uninterrupted by the war, might have succeeded in producing a deliverable weapon by the end of 1992. [PBS source: Tracking Nuclear Proliferation, a Guide in Maps and Charts, 1998, Rodney W. Jones and Mark G. NcDonough, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. (1998). p. 191]…

    Nuclear physicist and Iraqi defector Khidhir Hamza agrees. He told FRONTLINE that Iraq did not relinquish certain critical components of the nuclear program to the inspectors, and that it retains the expertise necessary to build a nuclear weapon. He believes that Iraq may have one completed within the next couple of years.

    Note: IAEA was allowed back into Iraq in January 2000 and again in January 2001. But its inspectors were blocked from full access inspections…

    The following information is found under the section titled, ” Iraq’s Biological Weapons (BW) Program“:

    Between 1991 and 1998, UN inspectors conducted more than 70 inspections into Iraq’s biological warfare activities. In its 1999 final report to the U.N. Security Council, UNSCOM noted that Iraq’s biological warfare program was “among the most secretive of its programs of weapons of mass destruction.” It said that Iraq “took active steps” to conceal the program, including “inadequate disclosures, unilateral destruction, and concealment activities.” Therefore, the Commission concluded, “it has not been possible to verify” Iraq’s statements about the extent and nature of its biological weapons program.”

    A 58 page annex to the final report describes what the Commission was able to learn about the BW program, despite Iraq’s concealment activities, and documents discrepancies between what Iraq claimed to have developed, or destroyed, and the physical evidence. Some of the findings include:

    * Extensive BW program: Iraq had an extensive BW program from 1973 until at least 1991. In mid-1995, Iraq admitted that it had weaponized BW agents, but claimed that the entire BW program had been in “obliterated” in 1991 and that all BW weapons had been destroyed and all bulk BW agents had been deactivated. The Commission found, however, that the evidence produced in support of this claim was not credible, and that Iraq “retained suitable growth media, BW facilities, production equipment, teams of expert personnel, and the essential technical knowledge” after 1991.

    * Bulk production: In July, 1995, Iraq acknowledged that between 1988 and 1991, it had produced two BW agents in bulk: botulinum toxin and Bacillus anthracis spores (anthrax). Iraq reported 19,180 liters of botulinum toxin (10-20 fold concentrated) and 8445 liters of Bacillus anthracis spores (10 fold concentrated). UNSCOM found, however, that “bulk warfare agent production appears to be considerably understated,” given the resources available to Iraq’s BW program, including growth media and fermenter capacity. The Commission said that the production rate of Botulinum toxin could be as much as double the stated amount, and 3 times greater than that stated for Bacillus anthracis spores.Iraq claimed that it unilaterally destroyed more than 7500 liters of the Botulinum toxin and 3412 liters of Bacillus anthracis spores in 1991; UNSCOM noted that there was not evidence to support quantities claimed to be destroyed. The report concludes “the Commission has no confidence that all bulk agents have been destroyed… and that a BW capability does not exist in Iraq.”Iraq also claims to have produced lesser quantities of clostridium perfringens spores, ricin, and wheat cover smut.

    * BW Warheads: Iraq claimed to have produced 25 Al-Hussein missile warheads and filled them with BW agents. The Commission found that there was no credible evidence to show that only 25 missiles were produced and filled. Iraq declared that the 25 missiles were unilaterally destroyed; the Commission found enough physical evidence to account for the declared quantities of BW warheads, but the location of the remnants were inconsistent with Iraq’s story.

    * BW bombs: Iraq declared that 200 R-400 aerial bombs were manufactured for BW purposes, but acknowledged that the numbers of bombs filled with particular agents (100 with botulinum toxin, 50 with bacillus anthracis spores, and 7 with aflatoxin) were “guesses.” UNSCOM did find evidence of the destruction of some BW bombs at the site declared by Iraq, but found that the remnants account for less than one third of the bombs Iraq claims to have destroyed. In addition, UNSCOM found evidence of R-400A bombs carrying BW at an airfield where no BW weapons were declared.

    * Aircraft drop tanks: Iraq claimed that it produced 4 aircraft drop tanks to disseminate BW agents, and was developing a pilotless aircraft that could carry the tanks, holding either BW or chemical weapons, and release the toxins at a preset time. UNSCOM found that there was no evidence corroborate that only 4 were produced, and noted that interviews indicated that 12 were planned. Remnants of only three destroyed tanks were recovered. UNSCOM also rejected the evidence offered by Iraq–a letter thanking the project workers–that the pilotless aircraft project was shut down.

    * Aerosol Generators: Iraq developed aerosol generators for the dispersal of BW agents by modifying helicopter-borne commercial chemical insecticide disseminators. Although Iraq claimed the devices were ineffective, UNSCOM received documentation that they were successfully field tested. Interview evidence suggests that there were 12 devices produced; none were destroyed by UNSCOM.

    The next section, titled, “Iraq’s Chemical Weapons (CW) Program,” is every bit as disturbing in terms of detailing Iraqi concealment, deception, cover-up, delay, and lies as regards to those programs.

    PBS links to official sources, such as the UNSCOM Report to the Security Council dated 25 Jannuary 1999 from which I was able to find a link titled, “ACTIONS BY IRAQ TO OBSTRUCT DISARMAMENT.” The facts that are reported detailing a longstanding pattern of the same delay, deception, and concealment tactics that are detailed above are related in point after point. Point 31 states, “By the end of the 1998, there remained significant uncertainties in the disposition of Iraq’s prohibited programmes.”

    And what I have documented here is nowhere near close to a full presentation of Iraqi efforts under Saddam Hussein to stymie U.N. and American efforts to discover what was going on with Iraqi WMD capabilities. From what we see here, however, a child in a carnival fun house would have a had a far more accurate picture of what the world around her looked like than one of the 30 or so U.N. inspectors looking for signs of WMD in Texas-sized Iraq.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    A 10 December 2002 New York Times editorial titled “Smoking Gun” put the situation into perspective pretty well:

    Those determined to avoid war at all costs may demand more direct and irrefutable evidence than this kind of coercive inspection program is capable of producing in the face of willful Iraqi deception. But the rigorous evidentiary standards of an American courtroom do not apply here. A case for military action is likely to be made by highlighting any major discrepancies between Iraq’s report and American and other findings. Given Baghdad’s track record, which includes serial aggression against neighbors, wholesale duplicity toward the Security Council and missing stocks of nerve gas and biological weapons material, this seems a reasonable approach. …

    Iraq is entitled to no presumption of innocence. It has arrived at this point after invading, occupying and looting Kuwait and then failing to honor the cease-fire terms it accepted after that conflict. Had Baghdad kept its word then, its unconventional weapons would long ago have been destroyed and the sites where they were developed permanently monitored. If careful scrutiny of Iraq’s new report shows it to be still defaulting on its promises, it will have forfeited the chance for a peaceful solution.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Pre-War Quotes from Democrats

    "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
    President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.

    "Together we must also confront the new hazards of chemical and biological weapons, and the outlaw states, terrorists and organized criminals seeking to acquire them. Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade, and much of his nation's wealth, not on providing for the Iraqi people, but on developing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them."
    President Clinton, Jan. 27, 1998.

    "Fateful decisions will be made in the days and weeks ahead. At issue is nothing less than the fundamental question of whether or not we can keep the most lethal weapons known to mankind out of the hands of an unreconstructed tyrant and aggressor who is in the same league as the most brutal dictators of this century."
    Sen. Joe Biden (D, DE), Feb. 12, 1998

    "It is essential that a dictator like Saddam not be allowed to evade international strictures and wield frightening weapons of mass destruction. As long as UNSCOM is prevented from carrying out its mission, the effort to monitor Iraqi compliance with Resolution 687 becomes a dangerous shell game. Neither the United States nor the global community can afford to allow Saddam Hussein to continue on this path."
    Sen. Tom Daschle (D, SD), Feb. 12, 1998

    "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
    Madeleine Albright, Feb. 18, 1998.

    "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
    Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb. 18, 1998.

    "We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
    Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

    "As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
    Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

    "Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
    Madeleine Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

    "This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
    Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.

    "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
    Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

    "We know that he has stored away secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
    Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

    "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
    Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

    "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
    Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

    "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
    Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

    "My position is very clear: The time has come for decisive action to eliminate the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. I'm a co-sponsor of the bipartisan resolution that's presently under consideration in the Senate. Saddam Hussein's regime is a grave threat to America and our allies..."
    John Edwards (D, NC), Oct. 7, 2002

    "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
    Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

    "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years .... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
    Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002.

    "He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
    Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.

    "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members.... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
    Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct. 10, 2002.

    "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction.
    Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002.

    "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime .... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction .... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ...."
    Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerEmpire View Post
    I challenge ANYONE to disprove me on anything... once again, F-Bush !!!!
    Well, you can deal with Zu now. And my money is on him.

    The lesson you should take from this internet ass-whoopin you're about to take is, again, get your facts together before you start spewing uninfomed venom. Good luck!

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney



    Give a lib a fish--he eats for a day

    Teach a lib to fish--he is back the next day asking for more free fish.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by NJarhead View Post
    Well, you can deal with Zu now. And my money is on him.

    The lesson you should take from this internet ass-whoopin you're about to take is, again, get your facts together before you start spewing uninfomed venom. Good luck!
    Damn! You mean I haven't met my "burden of proof yet?

    Seriously though I got to go to work, so I'm going to leave things where they stand for a couple days.

    But let me end on this. I'm not defending every choice and decision that the Bush White House made concerning Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Ideally every decision involving putting young men into harms way would be done with no political, or self motivation. But it hasn't been done in the history of mankind yet to the best of my knowledge. and I challenge you to find the exception.

    Regardless in this case I don't even think those were the predominant influences. In my opinion the bottom line assessment was that Hussien was an imminent threat to us and the world and that taking his regime down would come at an acceptable cost and serve the larger good in the spectrum of time.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Damn! You mean I haven't met my "burden of proof yet?

    Seriously though I got to go to work, so I'm going to leave things where they stand for a couple days.

    But let me end on this. I'm not defending every choice and decision that the Bush White House made concerning Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm not saying there weren't gross miscalculations, some cronyism, some shaping of the facts etc.... But you tell me the military action in world history where that hasn't occured?

    Ideally every decision involving putting young men into harms way would be done with no political, or self motivation. But it hasn't been done yet. But in this case I don't even think those were the predominant influences. In my opinion the bottom line assessment was that Hussien was an imminent threat to us and the world and that taking his regime down would come at an acceptable cost and serve the larger good in the spectrum of time.
    Well, he's either going to come back and bury himself deeper, or he's going to disappear. But you're right, I could have said "just took."

    I didn't agree with diverting our force in Afghanistan, but Saddam Hussein, at the very least at that time, destablized the region. We've already covered his history.

    Another fact that is often over-looked is that despite not finding WMD's, Saddam admitted to retaining the means to mass produce them at a moments notice. I can furnish the details on request.

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    SE, I need to know something. Were any of your views influenced in school (college or other)?

    My college experience was that 1 in 4 history professors (1 in about 8 in all professors) wasn't a leftist pos with an agenda to brainwash the students.

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    I'd call that a double whap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach1 View Post
    "With love, with patience, and with Faith
    ....She'll make her way" ~ Natalie Merchant

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Ousting Saddam was not an option, it was a necessity. Regardless of "WMDs" found or not found, it was not an option.

    I can't for the life of me understand WHY people don't get that. How in the world can you just allow a dictator like Saddam continue ruling? That is the typical "head in the sand" behavior that is straight out pathetic.

    Also, when you enlist in the service, you have basically signed your life away. If you live, especially if you enlist two days after a war / conflict starts, then that is gravy.

    Things that really urked me in '90 / '91 was how reservists didn't want to fight, they just joined the reserves for the free education. Well, what the HELL do you think is going to happen if you're needed?

    People are just plain cowards that think that way.

    If you don't want any chance of dying / being disabled in a military war, here is a novel idea: DON'T JOINT THE MILITARY!!!!!

    And if you do join, regardless of the reasons ("oh, well, I had nothing else to do" etc), suck it up and play the hand you're dealt.

    - - - Updated - - -

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by NJarhead View Post
    You're losing credibility fast. Go get your facts straight. You can start with any one of them.
    He would need to have credibility first to lose it. I don't know why some of these guys just don't sign up with HuffPo and circle jerk each other over there. Yea, we get it. Bush lied, people died. No more blood for oil.
    Last edited by smokin3000gt; 03-21-2013 at 03:35 PM.
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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    oh, yea?! Well............ F-Obama!

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by smokin3000gt View Post
    He would need to have credibility first to lose it. I don't know why some of these guys just don't sign up with HuffPo and circle jerk each other over there. Yea, we get it. Bush lied, people died. No more blood for oil.


    Funny, back in 2004 all we heard was just that. Nothing since. Hmmm.

  22. #22
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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Ok. That's why I didn't even bother to come back to check on this post until now. I knew their would be a bunch of BS. But we're all entitled to our opinion. You guys have yours, I still have mine.

    We all stated our positions on this matter, and it's all good.

    I fail to see justification in a war that costs $1-3 Trillion (esp. to you people "so concerned" about this nations debt), 4,500 servicemen killed, over 30,000 wonded for a nation that was already beaten. The "excuse" of WMD's was the "only" reason the Congress would have supported the 2nd Iraq incursion, and everyone knows it (Saddam "should" have been finished off in the 1st Iraqi war, another blunder).

    There are dictators all over the world, do we regularly absorb such a cost to remove them ? Saddam "could" have been taken out by MUCH easier (and less costly) means after the 1st war. Look what's happened in the Arab spring... just arm the rebels (for example) and Saddam, already weaked, would have dropped like a fly.

    Once again, Saddam could have been finished easier; not establishing a whole new entire war effort at the costs mentioned above. Who's to say that country won't go total Isamic fundametalist after Israel bombs Iran (which is predicted to happen) ? Thus, all the war effort will add up to a waste.

    Bottom line, it could have been done "much" easier. If Saddam DID have WMD's, cool. It could be justified. If he DIDN'T (which he didn't), one of two things happened that made Bush look like a total idiot: 1) he was lied to by his intelligence network (or HIS intelligence network was incompetent) so colossally that he started one of the longest wars we've ever had because of it. Or 2) he flat out lied to Congress and the nation. EITHER senario is embarrassing.
    Last edited by SteelerEmpire; 03-22-2013 at 10:13 PM.

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney



    I usually mind my own business when it comes to the political posts but I couldn't resist. The debate/argument was looking good. I'm sorry. I'll leave now.

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Pre-War Quotes from Democrats

    "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
    President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.

    "Together we must also confront the new hazards of chemical and biological weapons, and the outlaw states, terrorists and organized criminals seeking to acquire them. Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade, and much of his nation's wealth, not on providing for the Iraqi people, but on developing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them."
    President Clinton, Jan. 27, 1998.

    "Fateful decisions will be made in the days and weeks ahead. At issue is nothing less than the fundamental question of whether or not we can keep the most lethal weapons known to mankind out of the hands of an unreconstructed tyrant and aggressor who is in the same league as the most brutal dictators of this century."
    Sen. Joe Biden (D, DE), Feb. 12, 1998

    "It is essential that a dictator like Saddam not be allowed to evade international strictures and wield frightening weapons of mass destruction. As long as UNSCOM is prevented from carrying out its mission, the effort to monitor Iraqi compliance with Resolution 687 becomes a dangerous shell game. Neither the United States nor the global community can afford to allow Saddam Hussein to continue on this path."
    Sen. Tom Daschle (D, SD), Feb. 12, 1998

    "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
    Madeleine Albright, Feb. 18, 1998.

    "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
    Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb. 18, 1998.

    "We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
    Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

    "As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
    Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

    "Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
    Madeleine Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

    "This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
    Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.

    "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
    Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

    "We know that he has stored away secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
    Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

    "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
    Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

    "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
    Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

    "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
    Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

    "My position is very clear: The time has come for decisive action to eliminate the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. I'm a co-sponsor of the bipartisan resolution that's presently under consideration in the Senate. Saddam Hussein's regime is a grave threat to America and our allies..."
    John Edwards (D, NC), Oct. 7, 2002

    "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
    Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

    "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years .... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
    Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002.

    "He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
    Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.

    "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members.... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
    Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct. 10, 2002.

    "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction.
    Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002.

    "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime .... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction .... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ...."
    Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.
    But they never found WMDs the search for WMDs was called off in 2005 and the Iraq Survey Group gave their final report to the senate and president bush acknowledged iraq did not have WMDs, even Tony Blair admitted there were no WMDs and they were wrong. So we invaded a country that we were told was sitting on stockpiles of WMDs when in reality they did not, yes we did get sadaam out of power but we could of done that without spending trillions of dollars and american lives. In my opinion its a big military blunder because we invaded a country that didnt even have the weapons we claimed they had.

  25. #25

    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by SteelerEmpire View Post
    Ok. That's why I didn't even bother to come back to check on this post until now. I knew their would be a bunch of BS. But we're all entitled to our opinion. You guys have yours, I still have mine.

    We all stated our positions on this matter, and it's all good.

    I fail to see justification in a war that costs $1-3 Trillion (esp. to you people "so concerned" about this nations debt), 4,500 servicemen killed, over 30,000 wonded for a nation that was already beaten. The "excuse" of WMD's was the "only" reason the Congress would have supported the 2nd Iraq incursion, and everyone knows it (Saddam "should" have been finished off in the 1st Iraqi war, another blunder).

    There are dictators all over the world, do we regularly absorb such a cost to remove them ? Saddam "could" have been taken out by MUCH easier (and less costly) means after the 1st war. Look what's happened in the Arab spring... just arm the rebels (for example) and Saddam, already weaked, would have dropped like a fly.

    Once again, Saddam could have been finished easier; not establishing a whole new entire war effort at the costs mentioned above. Who's to say that country won't go total Isamic fundametalist after Israel bombs Iran (which is predicted to happen) ? Thus, all the war effort will add up to a waste.

    Bottom line, it could have been done "much" easier. If Saddam DID have WMD's, cool. It could be justified. If he DIDN'T (which he didn't), one of two things happened that made Bush look like a total idiot: 1) he was lied to by his intelligence network (or HIS intelligence network was incompetent) so colossally that he started one of the longest wars we've ever had because of it. Or 2) he flat out lied to Congress and the nation. EITHER senario is embarrassing.
    Okay, follow me here.

    1. The "blunder" of not taking him out during the first war was perpetrated by whom? Do you even know? President Bush and many in his cabinet wanted to remove Hussein. Ultimately, they did not PRECISELY because it would usurp the UN resolutions, thus making the war "illegal." So, let me get this straight. You blame President George H. W. Bush for NOT committing war crimes - and then you blame President George W. Bush for war crimes. See a problem in your logic here?

    2. What, exactly, were his war crimes? Let me give you a little bit of history again to clear this up again.

    a. Gulf war finishes. Part of the CEASE FIRE. Not, an END to the war, but a CEASE FIRE agreement is that Saddam Hussein and Iraq hand over all their WMD, allow inspectors uninhibited access, and generally be verified that they were no longer in possession of WMD or carrying devices for them (such as rockets that could fly over a certain distance - which he had, and did launch in the second war by the way. So much for him being innocent).

    b. When that was not completed, the cease fire was invalidated by his actions. There would be no reason, either withing the US, or in the UN to gain approval for war. A vote by congress and the UN was ALREADY held prior to the Gulf war, and THAT cease-fire agreement was no longer valid, meaning the war was on again. It was purely the restraint of the US for 10 + years that we didn't do anything about it besides launch a few missiles now and then.

    c. President George Bush took the UNNECESSARY step in going back to Congress, and to the UN to gain approval to resume an ALREADY LEGAL WAR.

    d. The US poured financial resources into Iraq and helped them rebuild their infrastructure Per the Hague Convention rules of war.

    The entire "war criminal" line is idiotic at best, and slandering the deaths of thousands of US servicemen and women at worst. Stop it. Just stop it.


    3. There's no such thing as "If this, then it will have been justified, if that, then it will not have been." That is petty, hindsight driven trash. Have you seriously even researched who believed he had weapons and why:
    a. "The president of Yemen, Ali Abdullah Saleh, who had close ties with Hussein, told Vice President Cheney that Hussein did not want war but would use chemical weapons if attacked."

    b. German agents - to the degree that they passed on "Hussein's plan for defending his capital. Concentric rings were to be manned by Iraqi units of varying trustworthiness. One of the circles was called the 'red line.' This was to be the final barrier, manned by Hussein's elite and most reliable troops. US military intelligence reasoned that as American troops reached this defense line they would be met by poison gas or germ weapons." (A report of a command from Hussein to launch the weapons was also made during the war. Funny that none of the networks every say anything about it).

    c. Hussein's generals, until Hussein informed them in December of 2002 that "Iraq did not possess WMD. The generals were stunned. They had long assumed that they could count on a hidden cache of chemical or biological weapons. Iraq had used such weapons in the war with Iran." That information came from Tariq Aziz, Iraq's deputy prime minister. (These three points are sourced from this story).

    Add to that the intelligence agencies that came to their conclusion that there was WMD in Iraq:

    d. Britain

    e. Germany

    f. Russia

    g. China

    h. Israel

    i. France

    j. Hans Blix - the head of the UN inspection team

    So much for Bush "being lied to by his intelligence network." By the way, here's a definition of lie: a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood. So did he lie? No. Did his intelligence agency lie? no. Who lied then? Saddam Hussein. Follow the first link to read the entire story. All in all therefore, your statement makes absolutely no sense. Saddam Hussein brought it upon himself by lying and manipulating the international community.

    4. WMD was not the reason we went to war. It was the mechanism that allowed us to continue to prosecute a war. It was the technicality that made it much easier to explain. However, the reason we went to war was because of Hussein's support for terrorists (well documented, including his terror training camps), his destabilization of the mid-east (he was one of the main contributors that paid the families of suicide bombers in Israel), and because, as former Vice President Cheney said, an Iraq with Saddam Hussein in charge created a nexus by which chemical, biological, and maybe even nuclear weapons can be joined with terrorists and terrorist organizations. For that reason, it was not an unnecessary war, but was instead, the centerpiece of the war on terror, ​as it should have been.

    Conclusion: your posts in this thread, your thought processes on this subject, and your positions presented here are so far away from reality that they take on a note of poisonous revision, and are outright ludicrous. Either you have bought wholeheartedly into the Goebbels-level propaganda that has been spewed by the left who had their panties in a twist over the 2000 elections, or you know the truth and still choose to spew this trash. In the end, it is ironic what that makes you.

    It makes you guilty of doing exactly what you accuse George Bush of: either outright lying, or being completely lied to by the ones you haven chosen to read. From what I know of you from around here, I believe and hope it's the latter, and this thread begins the wake-up call you need to start blaming the one who is REALLY responsible for your friends' deaths in the desert: Saddam Hussein.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    But they never found WMDs the search for WMDs was called off in 2005 and the Iraq Survey Group gave their final report to the senate and president bush acknowledged iraq did not have WMDs, even Tony Blair admitted there were no WMDs and they were wrong. So we invaded a country that we were told was sitting on stockpiles of WMDs when in reality they did not, yes we did get sadaam out of power but we could of done that without spending trillions of dollars and american lives. In my opinion its a big military blunder because we invaded a country that didnt even have the weapons we claimed they had.
    Wrong. We invaded a country that didn't have the weapons THEY claimed they had, at least until Saddam Hussein had to fess up to his generals just before the war began. Once again, look at the first part of my post. You'll find that the Yemen leader was basically TOLD by Saddam Hussein that they would launch WMD at American soldiers.


  26. #26
    Senior Member Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute"> zulater's Avatar

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by Preacher View Post
    Okay, follow me here.

    1. The "blunder" of not taking him out during the first war was perpetrated by whom? Do you even know? President Bush and many in his cabinet wanted to remove Hussein. Ultimately, they did not PRECISELY because it would usurp the UN resolutions, thus making the war "illegal." So, let me get this straight. You blame President George H. W. Bush for NOT committing war crimes - and then you blame President George W. Bush for war crimes. See a problem in your logic here?

    2. What, exactly, were his war crimes? Let me give you a little bit of history again to clear this up again.

    a. Gulf war finishes. Part of the CEASE FIRE. Not, an END to the war, but a CEASE FIRE agreement is that Saddam Hussein and Iraq hand over all their WMD, allow inspectors uninhibited access, and generally be verified that they were no longer in possession of WMD or carrying devices for them (such as rockets that could fly over a certain distance - which he had, and did launch in the second war by the way. So much for him being innocent).

    b. When that was not completed, the cease fire was invalidated by his actions. There would be no reason, either withing the US, or in the UN to gain approval for war. A vote by congress and the UN was ALREADY held prior to the Gulf war, and THAT cease-fire agreement was no longer valid, meaning the war was on again. It was purely the restraint of the US for 10 + years that we didn't do anything about it besides launch a few missiles now and then.

    c. President George Bush took the UNNECESSARY step in going back to Congress, and to the UN to gain approval to resume an ALREADY LEGAL WAR.

    d. The US poured financial resources into Iraq and helped them rebuild their infrastructure Per the Hague Convention rules of war.

    The entire "war criminal" line is idiotic at best, and slandering the deaths of thousands of US servicemen and women at worst. Stop it. Just stop it.


    3. There's no such thing as "If this, then it will have been justified, if that, then it will not have been." That is petty, hindsight driven trash. Have you seriously even researched who believed he had weapons and why:
    a. "The president of Yemen, Ali Abdullah Saleh, who had close ties with Hussein, told Vice President Cheney that Hussein did not want war but would use chemical weapons if attacked."

    b. German agents - to the degree that they passed on "Hussein's plan for defending his capital. Concentric rings were to be manned by Iraqi units of varying trustworthiness. One of the circles was called the 'red line.' This was to be the final barrier, manned by Hussein's elite and most reliable troops. US military intelligence reasoned that as American troops reached this defense line they would be met by poison gas or germ weapons." (A report of a command from Hussein to launch the weapons was also made during the war. Funny that none of the networks every say anything about it).

    c. Hussein's generals, until Hussein informed them in December of 2002 that "Iraq did not possess WMD. The generals were stunned. They had long assumed that they could count on a hidden cache of chemical or biological weapons. Iraq had used such weapons in the war with Iran." That information came from Tariq Aziz, Iraq's deputy prime minister. (These three points are sourced from this story).

    Add to that the intelligence agencies that came to their conclusion that there was WMD in Iraq:

    d. Britain

    e. Germany

    f. Russia

    g. China

    h. Israel

    i. France

    j. Hans Blix - the head of the UN inspection team

    So much for Bush "being lied to by his intelligence network." By the way, here's a definition of lie: a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood. So did he lie? No. Did his intelligence agency lie? no. Who lied then? Saddam Hussein. Follow the first link to read the entire story. All in all therefore, your statement makes absolutely no sense. Saddam Hussein brought it upon himself by lying and manipulating the international community.

    4. WMD was not the reason we went to war. It was the mechanism that allowed us to continue to prosecute a war. It was the technicality that made it much easier to explain. However, the reason we went to war was because of Hussein's support for terrorists (well documented, including his terror training camps), his destabilization of the mid-east (he was one of the main contributors that paid the families of suicide bombers in Israel), and because, as former Vice President Cheney said, an Iraq with Saddam Hussein in charge created a nexus by which chemical, biological, and maybe even nuclear weapons can be joined with terrorists and terrorist organizations. For that reason, it was not an unnecessary war, but was instead, the centerpiece of the war on terror, ​as it should have been.

    Conclusion: your posts in this thread, your thought processes on this subject, and your positions presented here are so far away from reality that they take on a note of poisonous revision, and are outright ludicrous. Either you have bought wholeheartedly into the Goebbels-level propaganda that has been spewed by the left who had their panties in a twist over the 2000 elections, or you know the truth and still choose to spew this trash. In the end, it is ironic what that makes you.

    It makes you guilty of doing exactly what you accuse George Bush of: either outright lying, or being completely lied to by the ones you haven chosen to read. From what I know of you from around here, I believe and hope it's the latter, and this thread begins the wake-up call you need to start blaming the one who is REALLY responsible for your friends' deaths in the desert: Saddam Hussein.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Wrong. We invaded a country that didn't have the weapons THEY claimed they had, at least until Saddam Hussein had to fess up to his generals just before the war began. Once again, look at the first part of my post. You'll find that the Yemen leader was basically TOLD by Saddam Hussein that they would launch WMD at American soldiers.
    Great post Preacher. Thanks for saving me the keystrokes.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

  27. #27
    Senior Member Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute"> zulater's Avatar

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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    But they never found WMDs the search for WMDs was called off in 2005 and the Iraq Survey Group gave their final report to the senate and president bush acknowledged iraq did not have WMDs, even Tony Blair admitted there were no WMDs and they were wrong. So we invaded a country that we were told was sitting on stockpiles of WMDs when in reality they did not, yes we did get sadaam out of power but we could of done that without spending trillions of dollars and american lives. In my opinion its a big military blunder because we invaded a country that didnt even have the weapons we claimed they had.
    Brilliant hindsight on your part! And by the way how do propose they were going to remove Hussein and his sons from power? Prayer vigil? U.N. Sanctions?

    I guarantee you that if Hitler had been eradicated as he should have been no later than 38, the majority of liberal historians would have chalked it up to a major blunder by Allied forces.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Liberal Superhero Captain Hindsight to the rescue, with his trusty sidekicks shoulda, coulda, and woulda!
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

  28. #28
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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Great points Preach.
    "With love, with patience, and with Faith
    ....She'll make her way" ~ Natalie Merchant

  29. #29
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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Quote Originally Posted by zulater View Post
    Brilliant hindsight on your part! And by the way how do propose they were going to remove Hussein and his sons from power? Prayer vigil? U.N. Sanctions?

    I guarantee you that if Hitler had been eradicated as he should have been no later than 38, the majority of liberal historians would have chalked it up to a major blunder by Allied forces.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Liberal Superhero Captain Hindsight to the rescue, with his trusty sidekicks shoulda, coulda, and woulda!
    Really You dont think we could of eliminated saddam without invading iraq for years? Why didnt we leave after hussein was removed? So yes we were lied to because it wasnt about WMDs because if it was we would of left after we didnt find them. It wasnt about removing saddam because we didnt leave after that.

  30. #30
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    Re: Iraq War vet pens 'last letter' to Bush and Cheney

    Wrong. We invaded a country that didn't have the weapons THEY claimed they had, at least until Saddam Hussein had to fess up to his generals just before the war began. Once again, look at the first part of my post. You'll find that the Yemen leader was basically TOLD by Saddam Hussein that they would launch WMD at American soldiers.[/QUOTE]

    My post is not wrong, Even if they said they have WMDs dont you think we bare some responsibility to our country,our tax payers, our troops, to find out before we invade a country?

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