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From the beginning I've thought there was a chance James would return on a lowered salary. Of course, that's still a long way from happening but I don't take Harrison for the type who would automatically rule out returning to the Steelers because of pride. If the Steelers are willing to match what other teams are offering (at this point, not much) I feel like he would jump at the chance to come back. That's just how I feel about it I guess.
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Thankfully I think that most Steeler fans don't feel like you do and we would welcome James back with open arms.Originally Posted by Preacher
That 'fight for the OLB position' that you speak of would last for all of about 1 minute.
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Really? So, 31 other teams are wrong. He's still got it enough to be a starter on any team in the NFL, right? Yeah, thought not. If he wanted to come back, it'd be for a lot less money than he would've made otherwise. Hence, tail between the legs. And no, it would be foolish to simply offer the position back up to him on a silver platter. He would have to earn it. Not saying he wouldn't or couldn't. It'd just be foolish of the coaches to give it to him.Thankfully I think that most Steeler fans don't feel like you do and we would welcome James back with open arms.
That 'fight for the OLB position' that you speak of would last for all of about 1 minute.
I mean, he was passed up for Paul Kruger, Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett, jason Hunter, Antwan Barnes, Lawrence Sidbury, Quentin Groves, Connor Barwin, and Erik Walden. But we'll welcome him back with open arms? And then we complain about the coaching staff holding on to players that are too old?
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Yeah, I'd absolutely welcome him back but by no means should we just hand him the job. I was hoping Worilds would push him or Woodley this season before we decided to cut Harrison. No reason that would change now.Really? So, 31 other teams are wrong. He's still got it enough to be a starter on any team in the NFL, right? Yeah, thought not. If he wanted to come back, it'd be for a lot less money than he would've made otherwise. Hence, tail between the legs. And no, it would be foolish to simply offer the position back up to him on a silver platter. He would have to earn it. Not saying he wouldn't or couldn't. It'd just be foolish of the coaches to give it to him.
I mean, he was passed up for Paul Kruger, Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett, jason Hunter, Antwan Barnes, Lawrence Sidbury, Quentin Groves, Connor Barwin, and Erik Walden. But we'll welcome him back with open arms? And then we complain about the coaching staff holding on to players that are too old?
Simply by showing up he would earn it. Worilds isn't even close to being 10% of what Harrison is on the field at ROLB. Woodley is the one who should be earning his spot. The coaches gave Hampton and Kiesel their starting spots based on tenure, not ability. So why not do the same for a player who has shown he is the only one who can play ROLB?Really? So, 31 other teams are wrong. He's still got it enough to be a starter on any team in the NFL, right? Yeah, thought not. If he wanted to come back, it'd be for a lot less money than he would've made otherwise. Hence, tail between the legs. And no, it would be foolish to simply offer the position back up to him on a silver platter. He would have to earn it. Not saying he wouldn't or couldn't. It'd just be foolish of the coaches to give it to him.
I mean, he was passed up for Paul Kruger, Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett, jason Hunter, Antwan Barnes, Lawrence Sidbury, Quentin Groves, Connor Barwin, and Erik Walden. But we'll welcome him back with open arms? And then we complain about the coaching staff holding on to players that are too old?
I get what you saying though. IMO, every year each position should be open.
Hater = Realist
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I think it's important to remember that when Joey Porter left most of us had major doubts about James Harrison. Hell, I'd be willing to bet most fans thought Harrison didn't stand a chance to start for more than a few games before we gave the nod to Timmons. Is Jason Worilds going to come in and set the league on fire like James did? Probably not. But I can never understand why so many Steelers fans are so quick to label a young guy ineffective.
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Keisel was the Steelers best defensive end last year. He most certainly earned his spot on the field. Hampton had a slow start, but by seasons end he too was playing at a competent level.
While personally I would have liked to have seen more of McClendon, he's undersized, and maybe the fear was that he'd wear down if given too many snaps at NT?
"A man's got to know his limitations."
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Worildis has had several start in place of Harrison and always resembled Claude Raines at ROLB. Virtually all of his positive stats have been accrued at LOLB, where he's not matched up on a OT.
Harrison on the other hand subbed for Porter several times before Porter was cut, and was dominant in every case.
LOLB and ROLB aren't interchangable in LeBeau's defense. You have to possess a lot more strenght, agility, and over all ability to play ROLB. If it were just that easy Woodley would be flipped to ROLB, and there's no thought of that is there?
On a related but different topic, this is why every year when Kevin Greene is a Hall of Fame finalist I get a little pissed, and probably am the only Steeler fan hoping against his selection. Not because i have any personal anomisity towards Kevin, because I liked the guy. But because while Kevin Greene was a good player, Gregg Lloyd was an exceptional player. Greene couldn't carry Lloyd's jock when they were both in Pittsburgh. While Greene was a good weak side pass rusher, Lloyd was a dominant overall linebacker, who excelled in every facet of the game. Line up Lloyd or Harrison in their prime as a weak side rusher and they get 20+ sacks a year.
And Lloyd in his prime not only killed it against the run, but he also was exceptional against the pass in coverage.
end of rant
"A man's got to know his limitations."
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I don't recall dominance from Harrison when he played for Porter. I remember exactly one play from him on defense prior to us losing Joey. What I do remember, is fans on every message board saying Harrison was a solid backup who had weaknesses that wouldn't allow for him to succeed as a fulltime starter at right outside linebacker.
Also, I think the idea that LeBeau doesn't believe his linebackers are interchangable is overstated if not largely false. If that were the case, wouldn't we employ a SSLB/WSLB system instead of ROLB/LOLB? I realize the majority of the time the tight end is aligned on Woodley's side but if the team was that concerned about it, would we not swap OLB assignments due to offensive personnel?
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Harrison only started one game at ROLB before Porter left and excelled that game. When Porter was ejected for a pre game fight in 2004 against the Browns. He had a sack, six tackles ( 5 solo) a qb hurry and a pass defensed. He also started 3 games for an injured Haggans in 2005. In those games he also excelled. Against the chargers he had an interception ( 25 yard return) 6 tackles, 3 for a loss, and a hurry and a pass defensed. Against the Jags he had 7 tackles, 1 sack and two qb hurries. The following week against the Bengals he had 5 tackles, 2 for a loss, 2 qb hurries and a pass defensed. He had one start in 2006 and had 8 tackles in that game.
Cowher really missed the boat on Harrison.
And as far as I can recollect Woodley's never been tried at ROLB.
It's not just about stats. When Harrison got on the field he was noticable, or at least to me he always was. Even when he wasn't making the play he impacted and influenced the play, mopre often than not to the Steelers advantage.
With Jason, he's had his moments, particularly in place of Woodley, where you can see some NFL game. But in the couple games he was tried in place of Harrison he was overwhelmed, and then injured. Thus they took Timmons out of his position and plugged him in place of Harrison.
In fact right there should tell you how much more difficult it is to play ROLB in the Steelers defense. Everyone always thought that Timmons had skills that would translate to the outside. But when put in place of 92 at ROLB Lawrence really struggled. And Timmons is 5x the player Woridis is imo.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
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Did I say anything about other teams? No, I'm talking about the Steelers. You know what happens in free agency with older players, especially ones coming off injuries.Really? So, 31 other teams are wrong. He's still got it enough to be a starter on any team in the NFL, right? Yeah, thought not. If he wanted to come back, it'd be for a lot less money than he would've made otherwise. Hence, tail between the legs. And no, it would be foolish to simply offer the position back up to him on a silver platter. He would have to earn it. Not saying he wouldn't or couldn't. It'd just be foolish of the coaches to give it to him.
I mean, he was passed up for Paul Kruger, Cliff Avril, Michael Bennett, jason Hunter, Antwan Barnes, Lawrence Sidbury, Quentin Groves, Connor Barwin, and Erik Walden. But we'll welcome him back with open arms? And then we complain about the coaching staff holding on to players that are too old?
No matter how hard you try to deny it, there's not another player on the Steelers who's even close to James at ROLB. As someone said previously, James 'earns' the starting job when he walks in the door.
“I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play!” - Jack Lambert
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Of course he would start on the Steelers as soon as he walked in the door. Any so called open competition would be a sham, just a face saver for Woridis.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
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I looked at outside linebacker on Rewind pretty extensively last season (albeit mostly watching Woodley) and really didn't think Worilds played as poorly on the right as you are suggesting. But fair enough, I guess we'll see come fall if he can play the position or not considering it doesn't look like the Steelers are going to land anyone else worthwhile unless Harrison returns.Harrison only started one game at ROLB before Porter left and excelled that game. When Porter was ejected for a pre game fight in 2004 against the Browns. He had a sack, six tackles ( 5 solo) a qb hurry and a pass defensed. He also started 3 games for an injured Haggans in 2005. In those games he also excelled. Against the chargers he had an interception ( 25 yard return) 6 tackles, 3 for a loss, and a hurry and a pass defensed. Against the Jags he had 7 tackles, 1 sack and two qb hurries. The following week against the Bengals he had 5 tackles, 2 for a loss, 2 qb hurries and a pass defensed. He had one start in 2006 and had 8 tackles in that game.
Cowher really missed the boat on Harrison.
And as far as I can recollect Woodley's never been tried at ROLB.
It's not just about stats. When Harrison got on the field he was noticable, or at least to me he always was. Even when he wasn't making the play he impacted and influenced the play, mopre often than not to the Steelers advantage.
With Jason, he's had his moments, particularly in place of Woodley, where you can see some NFL game. But in the couple games he was tried in place of Harrison he was overwhelmed, and then injured. Thus they took Timmons out of his position and plugged him in place of Harrison.
In fact right there should tell you how much more difficult it is to play ROLB in the Steelers defense. Everyone always thought that Timmons had skills that would translate to the outside. But when put in place of 92 at ROLB Lawrence really struggled. And Timmons is 5x the player Woridis is imo.
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I didn't say you were referring to any other teams. I was pointing out that James is not the LB he used to be. He had problems setting the edge all year last year. Over the last two years his production as plummeted. No passes defended (as opposed to averaging a little over three for the four years before that), no ints (averaged at least 1 a year), forced fumbles have plummeted to two a yearfrom an average of six and a half per year, sacks have increasingly dwindled from 2008 where he had sixteen, to ten in 09 and 10, to nine in 2011, and six last year. Total tackles over the last two years are 70 percent of what they were, and as for games played, he's a quarter of the season in 11, and almost that much in 12, not to mention that when he came back, he wasn't even close to really being able to play for another four or five games.
You might say, "But that last line explains all the rest." Yeah, and it also explains why I think he shouldn't just be "given" the job if he comes back. His body is breaking, like many players in their thirties. So either we make the move now to see if Worlids can step up and play, or we wait another year or two and let Ben get that much older and the window that much smaller for another shot at the SB with him. Sorry, I'm not so enamored with Harrison of the present, especially since no names were able to come in and relieve him in the middle of the season and our defense played just as well without him as with him when he was on the sidelines (not in shape due to injury).
Your falling into the same trap others have, depending on players rather than scheme. Lebeau made the changes last year and schemed out of our major defaults. I will trust his system over a thirty something player that hasn't proved he can remain healthy and play at a consistently high level over the last two years. The Steelers know that. Every other team in the NFL knows that (Hence, the list of names), so I fail to understand why you think he should just be "handed" a position that chances are, he'll have to "hand" back when he gets injured this year AGAIN, and then since it was handed to him, come in and play once more at forty, fifty percent of what he once was. And no, that does not make him better than Worlids at that point. More experienced? Sure. Able to put himself in a position to make a play based on that experience? Sure. The only way to fix that, is to give Worlids the time on the field, which brings us right back to the beginning.
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I think most people are taking Harrisons' stellar years, and then using that as a measuring stick against Worilds. Don't get me wrong, I think will end up being the same kind of LB that Haggans and Foote were, placeholders until the next big name came along. Interesting however, that we won a SB with those placeholders. Foote's game changed when he matured as a football player, so I don't think of him that way anymore.
Anyway, I think Worilds will be able to fill the role of ROLB that LeBeau's scheme demands, and really, that's all I care about.
But there will be a huge drop-off. Worilds struggles at ROLB. What also hurts is there is no one on the team who can provide pressure and make plays like Harrison did from the LB spot.
I certainly hope Worilds turns out better than Foote.
Hater = Realist
really ?
you do not remember the Cleveland game where Porter got tossed during pregame warm ups and Harrison had a great game in his place and slammed the Browns fan who ran onto the field ?
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No, we all realize the Harrison of 2007-10 is no more. But we also realize the 2012 version of Harrison controlled the edge, and was a force against the run. We also realize the 2012 Harrison finished strong and had 6 sacks in the final 7 games.
He's no longer dominant and elite, but he was still pretty damn good. And Jasson W has yet to show anything at ROLB.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the entire roster slayed the Browns that day. I took that performance with a grain of salt. And of course I remember the fan slam, but that doesn't indicate to me a player is going to be successful on the field.really ?
you do not remember the Cleveland game where Porter got tossed during pregame warm ups and Harrison had a great game in his place and slammed the Browns fan who ran onto the field ?
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I tend to agree. I'm not sold on his ceiling being so low, but I could see you being correct.
When Harrison came in for Haggans. He raised my eyebrow and I didn't like when Haggans came in, but then I read about Harrison being stubborn and uncoachable.Harrison only started one game at ROLB before Porter left and excelled that game. When Porter was ejected for a pre game fight in 2004 against the Browns. He had a sack, six tackles ( 5 solo) a qb hurry and a pass defensed. He also started 3 games for an injured Haggans in 2005. In those games he also excelled. Against the chargers he had an interception ( 25 yard return) 6 tackles, 3 for a loss, and a hurry and a pass defensed. Against the Jags he had 7 tackles, 1 sack and two qb hurries. The following week against the Bengals he had 5 tackles, 2 for a loss, 2 qb hurries and a pass defensed. He had one start in 2006 and had 8 tackles in that game.
Cowher really missed the boat on Harrison.
And as far as I can recollect Woodley's never been tried at ROLB.
It's not just about stats. When Harrison got on the field he was noticable, or at least to me he always was. Even when he wasn't making the play he impacted and influenced the play, mopre often than not to the Steelers advantage.
With Jason, he's had his moments, particularly in place of Woodley, where you can see some NFL game. But in the couple games he was tried in place of Harrison he was overwhelmed, and then injured. Thus they took Timmons out of his position and plugged him in place of Harrison.
In fact right there should tell you how much more difficult it is to play ROLB in the Steelers defense. Everyone always thought that Timmons had skills that would translate to the outside. But when put in place of 92 at ROLB Lawrence really struggled. And Timmons is 5x the player Woridis is imo.
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Controlled the edge? Go read the game threads again - or the after game threads about how people were complaining that he wasn't able to do that exact thing. I also wouldn't be bragging about sacks against Cleveland (2x) Cincinnati, Dallas, Baltimore and San Diego.
I mean, San Diego allowed fourth most sacks, Cincinnati the seventh most sacks, Baltimore the thirteenth most, and Dallas and Cleveland were tied for the sixteenth most. Bragging about six sacks against those teams is like a guy bragging that he got tongued by Tom Brady. It's expected. There's nothing special about it.
Joe Thomas was not the problem with Cleveland inability to keep their QB upright , and Joe Thomas is who Harrison was working against vs Cleveland ... just sayin
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And LB's never move? LB's never stunt? LB's never flip? Nope, don't buy it.
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This is a mjaor part of the reason I have an issue with Zu's argument that Worilds can succeed at LOLB but not ROLB. It's not like the ROLB is going to square up with the LT all day. Offensive formations are different from snap to snap, linebackers execute stunts, etc... I guess there is some validity to the idea that against running calls your ROLB is going to face the LT, but isn't the RT generally a better run blocker, anyway? And don't most NFL teams run much more to their right? I feel like individual matchups get overplayed when evaluating pass rushers. Just my opinion though, it's definitely up for debate.
I would have to see the play again ( or the play transcript ) as I do not remember specifically but Harrison lines up opposite Joe Thomas and that is who he normally works against the LT ( granted not every play ) but most times
I think Harrison either goes to baltimore or comes back to us. Just don't see many teams being interested in him right now. If he does go to baltimore he is one of the very few players I can not hate. The guy did a ton for us and his Superbowl 43 moment trumps anything he'd ever do with another team. I think he can still play at a high level. Bring him back!
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I agree that Baltimore and Pittsburgh are the most likely destinations for him. But I feel like the Eagles could have interest, too. I'm surprised the Colts chose both Erik Walden and Lawrence Sidbury over him.
As far as hating him or not in a Ravens uniform, I feel like I wouldn't be able to... but I felt like that about Max Talbot, too.
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Complete side note on Harrison that may have been brought up when he was cut. So apologies if it has been.
But there is no way we were offering a restructure of his contract and he turned it down. There would be no reason for him to turn away guaranteed money he'd get right away. We had to have given him the ultimatum. Take a pay cut or we're going to cut you. Has to be.
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That's my guess, and why I also think we won't be offering him a contract again. Could be wrong. Hope I'm wrong. We'll see. And yes, I would love to see Harrison in B & G again. I still think he has something to offer. I just don't think he has as much to offer as others seem to be making it out.
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With how bad this market is, he's not going to find big money anywhere. So he'll be in our price range. Whether he wants to come back and whether we want him back are different stories. I doubt he returns.
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