Should Shanahan have pulled R.G. III earlier?

[GBMelBlount]

I doubt anyone in game was basing it off stats. They base it off what they saw. And that's what I'm doing too.

I didn't watch the game but I am curious what you think they saw that differed from the shitty stats?

Was he effective?

Were they scoring?

Were they maintaing a lead?

Did he LOOK healthy?

Was there ANYTHING AT ALL that contradicted the stats?

[Chidi29]

I didn't watch the game but I am curious what you think they saw that differed from the shitty stats?

Was he effective?

Were they scoring?

Were they maintaing a lead?

Did he LOOK healthy?

Was there ANYTHING AT ALL that contradicted the stats?

No, he clearly was in pain. And obviously did not look 100%. But he hasn't looked healthy in several weeks.

Again, bottom line is that he was able to do enough to have a coach justify leaving a starter in. To me, it takes a lot for a coach to put his backup in. Because you haven't practiced or gameplanned the offense around him. Yes, I know Cousins did it once before but it doesn't mean he'll do it again. And I only saw one throw where the bum knee really affected a pass.

[GodfatherofSoul]

Lets also not forget the way the media and the LEAGUE crucified Jay Cutler for not playing on his busted knee. You can't win for losing when the press is always looking for some new controversy.

[zulater]

No, he clearly was in pain. And obviously did not look 100%. But he hasn't looked healthy in several weeks.

Again, bottom line is that he was able to do enough to have a coach justify leaving a starter in. To me, it takes a lot for a coach to put his backup in. Because you haven't practiced or gameplanned the offense around him. Yes, I know Cousins did it once before but it doesn't mean he'll do it again. And I only saw one throw where the bum knee really affected a pass.

We must have been watching a different game then.

[GBMelBlount]

No, he clearly was in pain. And obviously did not look 100%. But he hasn't looked healthy in several weeks.

Again, bottom line is that he was able to do enough to have a coach justify leaving a starter in. To me, it takes a lot for a coach to put his backup in. Because you haven't practiced or gameplanned the offense around him. Yes, I know Cousins did it once before but it doesn't mean he'll do it again. And I only saw one throw where the bum knee really affected a pass.

No. The bottom line is that he was injured and was playing like shit and Shanahan didn't have the intelligence or balls to make the right adjustments when it was clear that RGIII was injured and ineffective.

You know cousins did it once before but who says he can do it again?

Your entire post is just ridiculous.

[zulater]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/r...in-game-010613

If Redskins coach Mike Shanahan had any good sense about him, he’d have taken Griffin, who first sprained his right LCL on Dec. 9 against Baltimore, out of the game late in the first quarter, the moment he came limping back from the sideline after his knee buckled while planting to throw a pass. At worst, Shanahan should have stripped him of his helmet at the half, following a quarter of startling ineptitude with a visibly hobbled Griffin at the helm.


But because a young player was too competitive to quit in his first playoff game and his veteran coach didn’t have the guts to make the tough decision for him, the Redskins will be watching from home as the Seahawks move on to face Atlanta, and one of the league’s most exciting players may never be the same again.

The extent of Griffin’s injury won’t be known until later this week, but given the way the knee appeared to shred, and given Griffin’s history with his right ACL, which he tore in 2009 while still at Baylor, it’s hard not to fear the worst. And, unfortunately, it was something seemingly everyone but Shanahan and Griffin saw coming.

But it was a play two snaps before the Paulsen touchdown that should have been a watershed moment in the game that could have saved the Redskins’ season and Griffin’s knee. On first-and-goal from the Seattle 4-yard line, Griffin took the snap and rolled out to his right and eventually, after running out of real estate, threw an awkward, sidearm pass toward Pierre Garçon that fell harmlessly to the turf.

After the play, Griffin returned to the field, and to say he did so gingerly would not do his condition justice. He looked like a wounded animal, to the point where he could hardly walk, much less run the read-option. After the touchdown pass, Griffin retreated to the locker room with Dr. James Andrews, a Washington team physician who, earlier Sunday, publicly expressed concern over Griffin playing, and got his knee taped.


When he came back, Griffin was still something short of mobile, and sure as heck couldn’t move the way he did when he helped lead the Redskins to seven straight wins to close the regular season. But Shanahan looked an ineffective, and potentially already injured, quarterback in the face and told him to strap back up and get on the field anyway.

“I talked to Robert and Robert said to me, ‘Coach, there’s a difference between injured and being hurt. I guarantee I’m hurting right now; give me a chance to win this football game because I guarantee I’m not injured,’” Shanahan said. “So that was enough for me.”

From that moment on, Griffin, who moved the football effortlessly before that incomplete pass to Garçon, could do very little to combat a Seahawks defense that is already good enough without a gimpy quarterback’s help.

After amassing 129 yards of offense, nine first downs and two touchdowns on their first two drives, the Redskins only managed 74 more yards of offense, six first downs and no points. The Seahawks outgained the Redskins 271-38 in the second and third quarters, alone.

Some of that had to do with the Seattle defensive unit, which was among the best in the NFL this season and allowed a league low in points per game. But more of it, if not most of it, was a result of RG3 not being RG3.

“That’s my guy,” Seahawks cornerback Richard Sherman said of RG3 after the game. “He’s a hell of a player. He’s one of the best players I’ve ever seen. He presents a lot of challenges. I’m sure if he were 100 percent it would have been a different game.”

[Chidi29]

No. The bottom line is that he was injured and was playing like shit and Shanahan didn't have the intelligence or balls to make the right adjustments when it was clear that RGIII was injured and ineffective.

You know cousins did it once before but who says he can do it again?

Your entire post is just ridiculous.

Like I've said, much easier to say after the fact when you can look at the big picture. Much tougher after a just a few series to decide if you should pull your starter.

- - - Updated - - -

We must have been watching a different game then.

What throws do you think you can point to to say that had Griffin's knee been healthy, he definitely makes that throw?

[zulater]

Like I've said, much easier to say after the fact when you can look at the big picture. Much tougher after a just a few series to decide if you should pull your starter.

- - - Updated - - -



What throws do you think you can point to to say that had Griffin's knee been healthy, he definitely makes that throw?

Virtually all of them. I don't have the game recorded and haven't renewed NFL rewind yet, so I can't be more specific at the moment. But everything about the way he played yesterday from the second quarter on struck me as forced and stilted. Just the way he was seeing the field yesterday and not finding his reads was way out of character for him.

I'll tell you this much. As a licensed throughbred race horse trainer. If I sent a horse to post gimping around like he was yesterday I'd lose my license right then and there.

And by the way I was saying all this in real time yesterday. I didn't wait until after the fact because it was quite obvious in real time that his play was extremely diminished from the time he aggravated his injury near the end of the second series.

[Chidi29]

I actually thought he did a good job going through his reads, if that's what you mean. The only forced pass I saw without him going through his reads was on the INT.

Are you comparing Griffin to a horse? Is this Rob Parker?


I kid!

[zulater]

I actually thought he did a good job going through his reads, if that's what you mean. The only forced pass I saw without him going through his reads was on the INT.

Are you comparing Griffin to a horse? Is this Rob Parker?


I kid!

I'm saying more common sense is used when evaluating the readiness of a race horse. An injured animal of any sort is more likely to suffer a catostrophic injury when trying to compensate for a significant pre existing condition.

And truthfully I didn't see anything comendable about R.G. III's play after the first quarter.

[Chidi29]

Honestly, with the way his leg got stuck, I don't think it mattered how healthy/injured Griffin was. Anyone could have shredded their knee on that kind of play.

[Shoes]

I would have pulled him long before the fumble/ further injury. It wouldn't have mattered who cleared RG....it was clear to me this kid was really pushing the limits. Foolish in every way!

[zulater]

RG III User’s Manual

http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/fan...3-users-manual


Congratulations on acquiring the latest model of the RG, the RG III -- the most exciting quarterback on the market today! With proper use and care, your RG III is designed to run and pass smoothly for years into the future and win you numerous championships.

Directions

1. Place your RG III on the football field and start the game.

2. That is all. You should be quite pleased with the performance of the RG III. It is designed to do everything for you and make you look competent.

Maintenance and Care

The RG III is a highly functioning performance quarterback. As such, if not used properly and carefully, it can be delicate and become ruined.

ALWAYS refer to your RG III User’s Manual if you are concerned about the appearance or performance of your RG III.

On-Field Support

The RG III comes with a handy companion quarterback called the Kirk Cousins, or KC I. You will find the KC I to be a more than adequate fill-in for the RG III when the RG III needs downtime or routine maintenance. This is what the KC I is for. Do NOT hesitate to use it if you notice problems with your RG III.

RG III Genius Support

An RG III Genius, Dr. James Andrews, is available to consult 24/7/365 about the performance and durability of your RG III. ALWAYS listen to the RG III Genius and follow his orders to maintain the long-term performance of your quarterback. Failing to do so will void the warranty.

The RG III itself may want to keep performing and running. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE RG III SHOULD. Follow only the advice of the RG III Genius when it comes to maintenance and care.

Troubleshooting FAQs

Q: My RG III is a rookie and is limping around in a wild-card playoff game and having trouble driving off his back foot when throwing. Should I keep it in the game?

A: What?! No. Why risk the RG III’s future production when you can install the Cousins?

Q: But...

A: No “buts”! Do you have any idea how much some teams would give to have an RG III, and you’re treating yours like this? Please give your RG III to someone who will cherish it if you’re going to handle it in this manner.

[zulater]

Sometimes it takes a humor column to put things in perspective. And what he said about RG III having trouble driving off his back foot when throwing is how I should have addressed Chidi's previous question about what trouble I had with R.G. III's throwing. Because even on passes that he wasn't throwing poorly he wasn't throwing well either. If he had his normal velocity or accuracy there's no way he's 4 out of 10 for 18 yards. Drop or no drop.

[GBMelBlount]

Sometimes it takes a humor column to put things in perspective.

And what he said about RG III having trouble driving off his back foot when throwing is how I should have addressed Chidi's previous question about what trouble I had with R.G. III's throwing. Because even on passes that he wasn't throwing poorly he wasn't throwing well either. If he had his normal velocity or accuracy there's no way he's 4 out of 10 for 18 yards. Drop or no drop.

Agreed. While I did not watch the game I had to talk with one of my colleagues last night (who is a huge Seahawks fan) about another matter and after we finished business I asked him about the game and RGIII. He said that the injury in the 2nd quarter had a significant and obvious effect on his ability to both play and throw. He said there was no doubt in his mind that he should have been taken out.

[zulater]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...eb9_story.html


Redskins invested in Robert Griffin III, then everyone put his future in jeopardy

There is no confusion over Robert Griffin III’s knee — and there never was. The Washington Redskins drafted a healthy, thrilling young player and by the time they got done using him up this season he lurched around like a pirate with a peg leg. Let’s be clear: Griffin is not suffering from an old injury, or from just one injury either. Anyone with eyes saw the kid hurt his knee three times in the past month, twice in the same playoff game, until a strained ligament turned into a torn one. Every decision-maker in the organization, from the rock-headed coach to the renowned surgeon in the silly team pompom cap, is responsible for that.

Yeah, we get the cute distinction between “injured” and “hurt” that Mike Shanahan keeps trying to make, and we understand the play-with-pain culture of the NFL. But here is the real distinction: Griffin started an NFC playoff game against the Seattle Seahawks already hurt and wound up so badly injured that he requires surgery on his torn lateral collateral ligament, and his future is compromised. The supposed confusion over how much Shanahan and orthopedic surgeon James Andrews consulted on the sideline, and over the extent of damage to Griffin’s knee, are nothing more than rope-a-dope and rationalizing, feeble attempts to excuse the indefensible.
Griffin should never have been back on the field after halftime against the Seattle Seahawks last Sunday, and if the people in the organization weren’t so starved for success, they would have made a better decision about that.

There is nothing subtle about the situation. Ample evidence shows Griffin shouldn’t have been out there, more than enough to override the pleas of an impassioned rookie who wanted to play. Griffin’s right knee has already been reconstructed once, in 2009 when he was at Baylor. The Redskins spent three first-round draft picks to get Griffin in uniform, and he is the most expensive and valuable player they have had in 25 years. Do you think for a moment they didn’t study MRI exams of that knee as if it were Sanskrit before giving up those draft choices for him? You think they don’t know what his knee should look like?

Four weeks ago, when Griffin hurt his LCL against the Baltimore Ravens, the Redskins were overjoyed to announce that an MRI showed no structural damage at that time. He had just a “strained” ligament. There was no trouble reading that picture — it was totally clear to them.

You didn’t need a grainy medical film to know that Griffin came back too soon from the LCL strain when he completed just 9 of 18 passes for 100 yards and no touchdowns against the Dallas Cowboys in the final game of the regular season. A deadly accurate 70 percent passer became a so-so 50 percent passer.

[Chidi29]

The same Sally Jenkins who wrote an articled entitled, "Mike Shanahan can coach football — who knew?" not even a month ago.

Again, hindsight is playing a big role here. If he doesn't suffer the major injury or Washington wins the game with him in the lineup, there isn't near this much flack.

[zulater]

The same Sally Jenkins who wrote an articled entitled, "Mike Shanahan can coach football — who knew?" not even a month ago.

Again, hindsight is playing a big role here. If he doesn't suffer the major injury or Washington wins the game with him in the lineup, there isn't near this much flack.

It's not about hindsight. It's about having a little foresight. Particularly if that's supposed to be part of your job. You didn't exactly have to be Nostradomus to see it might not end well for RG III Sunday.

[Chidi29]

It's not about hindsight. It's about having a little foresight. Particularly if that's supposed to be part of your job.

I'm talkng just about the writers. They all have hindsight in their criticism of Shanahan.

[zulater]

What was the urgency for the Redskins anyway? This wasn't the 2009 Vikings with 18 year vet at qb and a rapidly closing window.

This wasn't supposed to be their year. Even if they beat the Seahawks they weren't winning the Super Bowl. You don't risk the franchise qb on whim and impulse.

[Chidi29]

What was the urgency for the Redskins anyway? This wasn't the 2009 Vikings with 18 year vet at qb and a rapidly closing window.

This wasn't supposed to be their year. Even if they beat the Seahawks they weren't winning the Super Bowl. You don't risk the franchise qb on whim and impulse.

Windows in the league are small. You never know what will happen. And coaches nor players have a "we'll get them next year" mentality. They live in the moment. As they should IMO.

[zulater]

I'm talkng just about the writers. They all have hindsight in their criticism of Shanahan.

It's deserved because of the end result.

Try this as a comparison. Hundreds of NFL players took the wheel of a car while over the legal limit this year. A couple dozen got pulled over and arrested for DUI or DWI. One got in a wreck and killed his teammate. And only that one is going to go to jail for the next decade.

You crash the franchise player you're going to hear about it.

[Chidi29]

Griffin did not come into the game on a torn ACL (if that's what it does end up being). No one had any clue that was going to be the end result. It's a gamble and he happened to get hurt on a fluky play (bad snap, knee gets caught in the bad field).

[zulater]

Griffin did not come into the game on a torn ACL (if that's what it does end up being). No one had any clue that was going to be the end result. It's a gamble and he happened to get hurt on a fluky play (bad snap, knee gets caught in the bad field).

He got hurt again on the second series and should have been shut down then and there all things considered.

If he misses next season it's on shanahan and I hope he gets fired over it.

[Chidi29]

But he did not have the severe injury that he ended up with.

If that doesn't happen, Griffin recovers probably well in time for OTAs and all is well.

[fansince'76]

Didn't watch the game, but I have read plenty about the RGIII injury afterward, and I think Shanny was in a no-win situation. If he put Cousins in and they wound up losing all the same, he'd be catching shit now for pulling Griffin. But that's also why he gets paid the big bucks.

[Chidi29]

Didn't watch the game, but I have read plenty about the RGIII injury afterward, and I think Shanny was in a no-win situation. If he put Cousins in and they lose, he'd be catching shit now for pulling Griffin. But that's also why he gets paid the big bucks.

Pretty much. It'd be another Jay Cutler scenario.

Or if Griffin gets pulled right away and the Redskins still lose, the coach is going to be blamed.

[zulater]

But he did not have the severe injury that he ended up with.

If that doesn't happen, Griffin recovers probably well in time for OTAs and all is well.

Regardless. Once he reaggravated his knee he should have been shut down. An unstable knee is much more likely to buckle under stress. And that's exactly what it did.

The end result is the end result and Shanahan should be made to answer for it.

- - - Updated - - -

Didn't watch the game, but I have read plenty about the RGIII injury afterward, and I think Shanny was in a no-win situation. If he put Cousins in and they wound up losing all the same, he'd be catching shit now for pulling Griffin. But that's also why he gets paid the big bucks.

The only no win situation for him was if RG III were to get injured so badly he misses next season.

That team had no real playoff expecatations. Shutting down a young franchise quarterback who was obviously hurting might have been met with some dissapointment but would have been readily accepted by everyone as the right thing to do.

[Chidi29]

Regardless. Once he reaggravated his knee he should have been shut down. An unstable knee is much more likely to buckle under stress. And that's exactly what it did.

The end result is the end result and Shanahan should be made to answer for it.

- - - Updated - - -





The only no win situation for him was if RG III were to get injured so badly he misses next season.

That team had no real playoff expecatations. Shutting down a young franchise quarterback who was obviously hurting might have been met with some dissapointment but would have been readily accepted by everyone as the right thing to do.

Do we really know that for sure? It might make sense but isn't true according to this line in the Washington Post.

"That sprain wouldn’t specifically predispose a person to an ACL tear, the experts said. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...d15_story.html