Should Shanahan have pulled R.G. III earlier?

[zulater]

I thought it was quite evident that R.G. III agravated his existing knee injury on the play before the Redskins second touchdown. He obviously couldn't put his full weight on the one leg and it was clearly affecting his ability to throw.

Cousins isn't awful by any means. I think if he would have been put in while the Skins still had the lead they would have had a much better chance to win that game.

Anyway I have to laugh at all the NFL talking heads circling the wagons to protect Shanahan. The only one I've heard with the balls to question his decision was Brian Billick, who pointed out there's a difference between playing hurt and being too injured to perform effectively.

Of course no one ever wants to go on record and criticize a coach. But to me if you're ever going to give credit to a coach then they must also be willing to lay blame when it's due.

[GodfatherofSoul]

I think it's a false controversy. They were down 7 pts in the 4th until his knee went out on a bad snap. That being said, they hadn't put any points up for a long time, but Cousins was getting clobbered behind that line. It's not like he would've been some panacea.

[zulater]

I think it's a false controversy. They were down 7 pts in the 4th until his knee went out on a bad snap. That being said, they hadn't put any points up for a long time, but Cousins was getting clobbered behind that line. It's not like he would've been some panacea.

Cousins came in with less than 5 minutes to go in the game, down two scores, and with lousy field position. His plight was made even worse when a first down pass he completed was negated by a holding call.

So how can anyone quantify how Cousins would have performed if he had been put into the game earlair?

[GodfatherofSoul]

So how can anyone quantify how Cousins would have performed if he had been put into the game earlair?

So, what you're saying is there's no point in second guessing Shanahan's decision since we can't know one way or the other?

[zulater]

So, what you're saying is there's no point in second guessing Shanahan's decision since we can't know one way or the other?

I'm saying he played a quarterback that was willing but unable to compete at a high enough level to help his team score points.

How Cousins would have played is anyone's guess?

How R.G. III was playing after reaggravating his injurywas readily evident to anyone willing to accept the obvious.

[NJarhead]

I like what Charlie Casserly had to say and I agree; They were up 14-0. If Shannahan pulls him then and they lose, he'd be questioned too. It was a no win situation for Shannahan.

Note: I am the last person who would support Mike Shannahan, but that's my unbiased opinion.

[Crow-Magnon]

I like what Charlie Casserly had to say and I agree; They were up 14-0. If Shannahan pulls him then and they lose, he'd be questioned too. It was a no win situation for Shannahan.

Note: I am the last person who would support Mike Shannahan, but that's my unbiased opinion.

Agreed. Whether you like Shanny or not, he was in a lose/lose situation there.

[zulater]

Agreed. Whether you like Shanny or not, he was in a lose/lose situation there.

How so? It was fairly evident that R.G. III agravated an existing injury and on exactly what play.There was a cleal line of delineation as to performance before and after that one given play. So if Shanny determines 3 or 4 series after that play that his qb's ability has been diminished to the point that he no longer feels he can move the offense effectivley, then who's going to question him and on what basis?

[NJarhead]

How so? It was fairly evident that R.G. III agravated an existing injury and on exactly what play.There was a cleal line of delineation as to performance before and after that one given play. So if Shanny determines 3 or 4 series after that play that his qb's ability has been diminished to the point that he no longer feels he can move the offense effectivley, then who's going to question him and on what basis?

Are you saying he wouldn't have faced any criticism had he made the change to Cousins after, say, the first half?

[zulater]

Are you saying he wouldn't have faced any criticism had he made the change to Cousins after, say, the first half?

Yeah I'm saying exactly that.

His answer would have been easy. Something along the lines of...

We noticed Robert had aggravated an existing injury significantly on the second to last play of our second series. Robert wanted to keep playing and said he was able, so we gave him the initial benifit of the doubt. But as the game progressed it became obvious that despite Robert's best efforts he just wasn't physically able to perform anymore at the level that was needed for him and the offense to succeed. Plus we also needed to consider Robert's ability to protect himself on the field and the chances of even aggravating his injury further. So I made the decision to pull him when I did, and stand by that regardless of result.

So you tell me. How can anyone question that?

[zulater]

I like what Charlie Casserly had to say and I agree; They were up 14-0. If Shannahan pulls him then and they lose, he'd be questioned too. It was a no win situation for Shannahan.

Note: I am the last person who would support Mike Shannahan, but that's my unbiased opinion.

They were up 14-0 in large part because R.G. III played at a high level on the first two series. He clearly reaggravted his injury on the play before their final touchdown.

After that he played like a different player. One who could no longer perform at a high enough level to get his team a score.

[Count Steeler]

He should have given Cousins a series or 2 and let RGIII get some work on his leg. After that he could have made a better evaluation on whether to put RGIII back in or let Cousins ride it out.

[GBMelBlount]

I see this decision as similar to the ones Tomlin had to make with regard to playing Ben injured the last two years.

Only difference is Tomlin had plenty of time and information before making the completely boneheaded decision each and every effing week to continue to play Ben the past two years and subsequently completely blow both of our last two seasons.

Just my humble opinion of course.

[Count Steeler]

I see this decision as similar to the ones Tomlin had to make with regard to playing Ben injured the last two years.

Only difference is Tomlin had plenty of time and information before making the completely boneheaded decision each and every effing week to continue to play Ben the past two years and subsequently completely blow both of our last two seasons.

Just my humble opinion of course.

I was thinking along the same lines GB. Cousins did have a decent outing earlier this year.

[Nadroj 20]

I thought it was quite evident that R.G. III agravated his existing knee injury on the play before the Redskins second touchdown. He obviously couldn't put his full weight on the one leg and it was clearly affecting his ability to throw.

Cousins isn't awful by any means. I think if he would have been put in while the Skins still had the lead they would have had a much better chance to win that game.

Anyway I have to laugh at all the NFL talking heads circling the wagons to protect Shanahan. The only one I've heard with the balls to question his decision was Brian Billick, who pointed out there's a difference between playing hurt and being too injured to perform effectively.



Of course no one ever wants to go on record and criticize a coach. But to me if you're ever going to give credit to a coach then they must also be willing to lay blame when it's due.

That is exactly what RG3 said on ESPN. He said that yes he was hurting but he wasn't "injured" (clearly he was, yes) and wanted to continue to play. I understand the decision is still on Shanahan but it would make that decision much harder when your star QB is telling you he can do it.

I did notice a difference in RG3 and he progessively got worse as the game went and I'll admit I thought to myself maybe Cousins would do better in this situation.

Hind sight. Who knows what would have happened I guess.

- - - Updated - - -

[Chidi29]

If Washington wins, no one gives Shanahan any flack for keeping him in. Sports celebrates playing through pain. Emmitt Smith, Michael Jordan, Byron Leftwich, all iconic games that were one of the highlights of their career (granted, in Leftwich's case, not a strong field).

Yes, Griffin was in pain. No, he wasn't his usual self. But he hadn't been his usual self the past two weeks and that was evident just watching him. But it wasn't so bad that he couldn't move around. He could still flex his knee and move around somewhat (having a brace and getting re-taped also restricts ability to bend your leg, maybe making it look worse than what it was before the botched snap).

If the doctors cleared him (which they must have since he went back and got an MRI when he originally got hurt) and Griffin said he was good, I have no qualms playing him. Of course, I wouldn't have been too critical had Shanny benched him either.

It's much easier for the fan to say what the decision should have been after Griffin's leg snaps.

[zulater]

If Washington wins, no one gives Shanahan any flack for keeping him in. Sports celebrates playing through pain. Emmitt Smith, Michael Jordan, Byron Leftwich, all iconic games that were one of the highlights of their career (granted, in Leftwich's case, not a strong field).

Yes, Griffin was in pain. No, he wasn't his usual self. But he hadn't been his usual self the past two weeks and that was evident just watching him. But it wasn't so bad that he couldn't move around. He could still flex his knee and move around somewhat (having a brace and getting re-taped also restricts ability to bend your leg, maybe making it look worse than what it was before the botched snap).

If the doctors cleared him (which they must have since he went back and got an MRI when he originally got hurt) and Griffin said he was good, I have no qualms playing him. Of course, I wouldn't have been too critical had Shanny benched him either.

It's much easier for the fan to say what the decision should have been after Griffin's leg snaps.

He couldn't throw the ball with any consistent accuracy after aggravating the injury. He couldn't and didn't move the team after aggravating the injury on a specific play. That is the sole basis for my belief that he should have been removed from the game earlair than he was.

[Chidi29]

He couldn't throw the ball with any consistent accuracy after aggravating the injury. He couldn't and didn't move the team after aggravating the injury on a specific play. That is the sole basis for my belief that he should have been removed from the game earlair than he was.

It's just really difficult to be in that moment and pull your starting guy. The player you've put out there hurt for the past two weeks, the one who has been cleared and wants to play. The guy who has practiced all week and the player you've put the gameplan in for.

And as bad as it sounds (and this is a pretty bad thought) as long as he doesn't tear his ACL, he'll have plenty of time to recover from during the offseason. It's not as if they were guaranteed to play next week.

I still saw him spin the ball pretty well, too. His INT was launched what, 50-55 yards?

[zulater]

It's just really difficult to be in that moment and pull your starting guy. The player you've put out there hurt for the past two weeks, the one who has been cleared and wants to play. The guy who has practiced all week and the player you've put the gameplan in for.

And as bad as it sounds (and this is a pretty bad thought) as long as he doesn't tear his ACL, he'll have plenty of time to recover from during the offseason. It's not as if they were guaranteed to play next week.

I still saw him spin the ball pretty well, too. His INT was launched what, 50-55 yards?

Throwing far and throwing accurate are different matters entirely. If you don't have a good throwing base and can't step into your throws you wont throw the ball accurate.

You have any idea what his stats were after the second series?

This from a guy who was completing near 70% of his passes a month ago?

I give up. I hope every fucking coach in the league plays his starters until their limbs fall off from now until the end of tuime.
There's never a common sense reason to pull a guy who wants to play even if his body and quality of play are screaming that his body can't cash that check.

I'm done on this thread.

Good move Shanahan.

[Nadroj 20]

Throwing far and throwing accurate are different matters entirely. If you don't have a good throwing base and can't step into your throws you wont throw the ball accurate.

You have any idea what his stats were after the second series?

This from a guy who was completing near 70% of his passes a month ago?

I give up. I hope every fucking coach in the league plays his starters until their limbs fall off from now until the end of tuime.
There's never a common sense reason to pull a guy who wants to play even if his body and quality of play are screaming that his body can't cash that check.

I'm done on this thread.

Good move Shanahan.

Zu you make good points. However, how would any of us respond in a situation like that? Heat of the moment in the middle of the game when there are other concerns to be had. I sure as hell don't know how I would respond. It is a tough call to make and it is only human to lean toward the guy that has played all year at a high level even if he is struggling.

I will point out that if Shanahan DID make the move to pull out RG3 I surely would not have been critical of the decision. But who am I?

At one point in the game the annoucer said I don't think you can consider pulling RG3 at this point can you? and I turned around and told my buddy how can you not consider putting Cousins in? But the difference is I was sitting on my couch not in the heat of battle.

I don't know, I did know this would be talked about for awhile now and the media would go crazy playing with all the different possibilties.

I just hope the injury isn't serious and RG3 can be ready for next year because he is a special player and I'd like to see him continue is good play.

[polamalubeast]

It was a playoff game, I have no problem with the decision of Shanahan because RGIII is your best player

[Chidi29]

Well sorry people didn't agree with you. Is that what you were looking for? Praise for your wisdom?

[zulater]

Well sorry people didn't agree with you. Is that what you were looking for? Praise for your wisdom?

No, just not a complete dismisal I suppose when my points are all valid.

Like I said before, don't ever take out a starter again for the rest of time no matter how poorly he limps around the field and plays. No reason for a coach to exercise judgement based on changing events on the field if a guy says he can play he can play.

[Chidi29]

No, just not a complete dismisal I suppose when my points are all valid.

Like I said before, don't ever take out a starter again for the rest of time no matter how poorly he limps around the field and plays. No reason for a coach to exercise judgement based on changing events on the field if a guy says he can play he can play.

And I never said they weren't valid. They are good points. A lot of QBs get benched at that point.

But I don't think he was as hurt as some think after that second serious. Was he in pain? Yes. But he could still move around enough to drop back in the pocket and play from there. Then his knee gives out and then everyone calls for Shanahan's head, as if he had a crystal ball or something.

And again, the doctors had to have cleared him. Griffin went back to the locker room after that second series with the doctors to get an MRI. Obviously nothing too serious came up in the results. No tears.

[zulater]

And I never said they weren't valid. They are good points. A lot of QBs get benched at that point.

But I don't think he was as hurt as some think after that second serious. Was he in pain? Yes. But he could still move around enough to drop back in the pocket and play from there. Then his knee gives out and then everyone calls for Shanahan's head, as if he had a crystal ball or something.

And again, the doctors had to have cleared him. Griffin went back to the locker room after that second series with the doctors to get an MRI. Obviously nothing too serious came up in the results. No tears.

1st quarter 6-9 68 yards 2 td 0 int 97.1 rtg

rest of game. 4-10 16 yards, 0 td 1 int 5.9 rtg

[Chidi29]

1st quarter 6-9 68 yards 2 td 0 int 97.1 rtg

rest of game. 4-10 16 yards, 0 td 1 int 5.9 rtg

I doubt anyone in game was basing it off stats. They base it off what they saw. And that's what I'm doing too.

[polamalubeast]

1st quarter 6-9 68 yards 2 td 0 int 97.1 rtg

rest of game. 4-10 16 yards, 0 td 1 int 5.9 rtg

only 10 pass attemps....

I do not think that Cousins ​​would have been better.....The seahawks have the best defense in the NFL this year

[zulater]

RG III should have come out of the game
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post...ut-of-the-game


He should have come out of the game. It's really that simple, and it's not hindsight.

Anybody who watched Washington Redskins quarterback Robert Griffin III hobble through the second and third quarters of his team's season-ending 24-14 playoff loss to the Seattle Seahawks on Sunday at FedEx Field could see that (A) he was badly hurt and (B) he was hurting his team's chances.

It's not a second-guess. I sat next to John Clayton all game, and he can assure you that I was saying the same thing in the second quarter and the third quarter that I was saying in the fourth, when Griffin's injured right knee finally collapsed like a tower of Legos and the situation went from clear to absurdly obvious.

"If you didn't pull him out then," Redskins coach Mike Shanahan said, "then you should get fired."

Clearly, but prior to that point there were many at which Shanahan could and should have made the decision to pull Griffin and replace him with backup Kirk Cousins. He admitted after the game that the choice was difficult and that he wasn't sure even in retrospect that he'd chosen well.

"Very tough decision, and you've got to go with your gut," Shanahan said. "I'm not saying my gut is always right. I'll probably second-guess myself."

He should, because his gut was wrong. Deciding to keep Griffin in the game when he was clearly (A) injured and (B) not helping Washington move the ball was the decision that ended this Redskins season and could put part of the next one in jeopardy. Asked after the game if he thought he might have torn his right ACL -- something he did in college and therefore knows how it feels -- Griffin said, "Honestly, it's up in the air for me right now."

RG III's Performance Vs Seattle
Already hobbled by a knee injury, Robert Griffin III was not the same after making a running throw with 3:23 left in the first quarter.

1st Quarter Rest of Game
Comp-Att 6-9 4-10
Pass yds 68 16
TD-Int 2-0 0-1
Total QBR 97.1 5.9

I believe Shanahan will kick himself about that decision for a long time to come, and for many reasons. What's amazing is that in failing to make the correct long-term decision he also failed to make the correct short-term one. The Redskins were moving the ball as if in their wildest dreams against the Seahawks in the first quarter, rolling up 129 yards on 20 plays and racing out to a 14-0 lead. Griffin got hurt at the end of the second touchdown drive, and in the final three quarters combined the Redskins gained 74 yards on 34 plays. Regardless of what Griffin says, his inability to move inside or outside the pocket mattered. Redskins tight end Logan Paulsen admitted that "It took a few things out of the playbook."

Seahawks cornerback Richard Sherman said, "He wasn't able to take as many shots downfield."

There was a stadium full of people who could tell the Redskins' offense was impotent with this shell of Griffin operating it, yet Shanahan didn't decide to go to Cousins (a guy who has shown he can win games in Griffin's place) until it finally appeared that Griffin might not be able to get up.

"It was hard to watch RG III," Seahawks coach Pete Carroll said. "He was gallant."

No one's disputing that. It's Griffin's job to be gallant and tough and determined and all of the great things everybody was calling him after the game for his refusal to leave it. But it's Shanahan's job to make the clear-headed decision to overrule the 22-year-old superstar who wants to believe he's invincible. I do not know if Cousins would have done better against the Seahawks' defense in those final three quarters. I do feel confident in saying he couldn't have done worse. And even if he hadn't been an improvement, we wouldn't be sitting here right now thinking about how many games Griffin will have to miss in September and October if he has in fact torn his ACL.


This guy makes my argument better than I can. And with that now I can bid this thread adieu. ( except as a spectator and quick redress)

[NJarhead]

RG III should have come out of the game
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post...ut-of-the-game


He should have come out of the game. It's really that simple, and it's not hindsight.

Anybody who watched Washington Redskins quarterback Robert Griffin III hobble through the second and third quarters of his team's season-ending 24-14 playoff loss to the Seattle Seahawks on Sunday at FedEx Field could see that (A) he was badly hurt and (B) he was hurting his team's chances.

It's not a second-guess. I sat next to John Clayton all game, and he can assure you that I was saying the same thing in the second quarter and the third quarter that I was saying in the fourth, when Griffin's injured right knee finally collapsed like a tower of Legos and the situation went from clear to absurdly obvious.

"If you didn't pull him out then," Redskins coach Mike Shanahan said, "then you should get fired."

Clearly, but prior to that point there were many at which Shanahan could and should have made the decision to pull Griffin and replace him with backup Kirk Cousins. He admitted after the game that the choice was difficult and that he wasn't sure even in retrospect that he'd chosen well.

"Very tough decision, and you've got to go with your gut," Shanahan said. "I'm not saying my gut is always right. I'll probably second-guess myself."

He should, because his gut was wrong. Deciding to keep Griffin in the game when he was clearly (A) injured and (B) not helping Washington move the ball was the decision that ended this Redskins season and could put part of the next one in jeopardy. Asked after the game if he thought he might have torn his right ACL -- something he did in college and therefore knows how it feels -- Griffin said, "Honestly, it's up in the air for me right now."

RG III's Performance Vs Seattle
Already hobbled by a knee injury, Robert Griffin III was not the same after making a running throw with 3:23 left in the first quarter.

1st Quarter Rest of Game
Comp-Att 6-9 4-10
Pass yds 68 16
TD-Int 2-0 0-1
Total QBR 97.1 5.9

I believe Shanahan will kick himself about that decision for a long time to come, and for many reasons. What's amazing is that in failing to make the correct long-term decision he also failed to make the correct short-term one. The Redskins were moving the ball as if in their wildest dreams against the Seahawks in the first quarter, rolling up 129 yards on 20 plays and racing out to a 14-0 lead. Griffin got hurt at the end of the second touchdown drive, and in the final three quarters combined the Redskins gained 74 yards on 34 plays. Regardless of what Griffin says, his inability to move inside or outside the pocket mattered. Redskins tight end Logan Paulsen admitted that "It took a few things out of the playbook."

Seahawks cornerback Richard Sherman said, "He wasn't able to take as many shots downfield."

There was a stadium full of people who could tell the Redskins' offense was impotent with this shell of Griffin operating it, yet Shanahan didn't decide to go to Cousins (a guy who has shown he can win games in Griffin's place) until it finally appeared that Griffin might not be able to get up.

"It was hard to watch RG III," Seahawks coach Pete Carroll said. "He was gallant."

No one's disputing that. It's Griffin's job to be gallant and tough and determined and all of the great things everybody was calling him after the game for his refusal to leave it. But it's Shanahan's job to make the clear-headed decision to overrule the 22-year-old superstar who wants to believe he's invincible. I do not know if Cousins would have done better against the Seahawks' defense in those final three quarters. I do feel confident in saying he couldn't have done worse. And even if he hadn't been an improvement, we wouldn't be sitting here right now thinking about how many games Griffin will have to miss in September and October if he has in fact torn his ACL.


This guy makes my argument better than I can. And with that now I can bid this thread adieu. ( except as a spectator)

Same guy wrote this at half-time:

The question is, whenever the Redskins get the ball back in the second half, what will they do about quarterback? They're either going to have to adjust the offense around an obviously limited Griffin or think about replacing him with backup Kirk Cousins, who finished the Week 14 game and won the Week 15 game in Cleveland with Griffin sitting out due to the knee injury. It would be a tough decision to switch to the backup quarterback in the second half of a playoff game, but the Redskins must make an honest assessment of Griffin's ability to perform at the level at which they need him, or they risk seeing their season end today.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post...rg-iii-hold-up

Not exactly a definitive "Take RG III out of the game now!" like he implies in his follow-up article So, to me this is exactly hindsight.

- - - Updated - - -

[Count Steeler]

I really don't see what the harm would have been to play Cousins in the 2nd quarter and give RGIII a rest. They were up 14-0, you can run the ball, give Cousins a series or 2 and re evaluate.

If they were trailing or tied, different story. Up 2 scores, see if Cousins can take you home and save RGIII for the following week.