Take his 40 time away? That's how you know that a person has no legitimate argument. Calvin Johnson isn't Megatron without his size. Randy Moss scored over 100 TD's predominantly with speed. What's Ben without his escapability? What was Barry Sanders without his cut on a dime ability? Those gifts separate average players from stars. You not liking it won't change it.Originally Posted by Steeldude
well then surely you'd be happy to know wallace's TD's this year have come in the form of 9-routes, fades, quick slants, and just an absurd between the knees catch in the redzone. You seriously think a receiver who can get a touchdown inside the 10 is "nothing special?" your criteria makes no sense whatsoever. He's scoring in diverse fashion this season, nothing different from years past. You arent making any sense. Both of wallace's TD's were pretty difficult and very well-covered catches. and I dont know what you're thrill is about getting 20-25 passing TD's and 10-15 rushing TD's in a season. Those are abominable and extremely pathetic numbers, especially with the absurd number of weapons we have. people dont realize all of the targets our other receivers have had on long passes and never make them because nobody talks about it. Just because he's gone doesnt mean those yards and scores he racked up will magically appear in the form of sanders and brown. You think its so easy but its not. We've sucked ass in the redzone for the longest time and losing our top scoring receiver from the past 3 seasons? Not helpful. All of our receivers bring different strengths to the table and thats why theyre all important.
The young money crew seriously needs to get their act together in the same game. for all the talk and hype, they are by far the most underperforming receiving corp in the league. By a mile. Seriously. No one comes close.
Really? What does Wallace bring besides his 40 time? Straight line speed is not worth anywhere close to $10,000,000 a year.
All of the players you listed have multiple qualities while Wallace has only straight line speed. He has poor hands; poor fundamentals; he isn't big; he gives poor effort and his route running is below average also. So please, by all means, tell me what Wallace brings besides his 40 time?
He can still catch and has above average fundamentalsCalvin Johnson isn't Megatron without his size
Moss has very good hands and great body control.Randy Moss scored over 100 TD's predominantly with speed
Hater = Realist
You dont catch 70 -80 passes a season by just running in a straight line
take away his speed??? its so ridiculous, your whole arguement is take away wallaces speed and hes no good, well come back to reality we cant take his speed away, he continues to catch alot of passes and multiple tds. I think hes a better route runner than brown and sanders both, the guy gets wide open there is no denying it.
the same Andre Johnson that missed 12 games of that time frame to a knee injury and the same Andre Johnson that plays in a run first offence that is very good at running the ball with a premier RB getting over 300 carries a year and last year the backup RB had nearly 1,000 yards rushing too ....
Wallace has been in a pass oriented system in comparison and not missed any significant time during that span
not a great comparison IMO ...
You have to compare johsons first 3 seasons with wallaces first 3 seasons, johnson only missed 3 games in his fiirst 3 years:
Johnson 208 rec 2806 yds 12 tds
Wallace 171 rec 3206 yds 24 tds
Also this season johnson has been targeted 19 times more than wallace
Another stat:
Pittsburgh 328 rushing attempts
houston 257 rushing attempts
pittsburgh 408 passing attempts
houston 460 passing attempts
Andre Johnson has 112 targets so far THIS year ... 74 catches 1,114 yards 93 yards per game average
Mike Wallace has 104 Targets so far this year ... 59 catches 728 yards 56 yards per game average
if making a comparison please do so with correct figures so we can compare apples to apples not apples to oranges ...
Wallace
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/9348/career
Johnson
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6339/career
the true numbers speak for themselves
many would proclaim A.J has a tougher duty than Wallace too because he does not have nearly as much talent around him at WR thus he is almost always doubled and with the oppositions best CB being part of that double team .. we have seen Safties one on one vs Wallace at times this year and if you have not seen it you simply just where not paying attention
as a side note why all the misinformation in you're stats ? why not use the same stats everyone else uses ?
you claim that Houston has only 257 rushing attempts on the season when in fact Foster himself has 283 ( more than you credit the entire team with )
Tate and Forsett have another hundred or so between them ( their team site credits them for 413 rushes and 418 pass attempts )most consider that balance at the very least ....
while the Steelers team site shows 318 rushes and 483 pas plays ... most consider that a pass first scheme based on the numbers
twist the number all you like but just because you fabricate the stats does not make them the actual stats ....
*** I did not quote all your misinformation in the above post to give you a chance and fix those distorted figures and I suspect you will because you will look like a fool if you leave them as is .......
if you intend to use statistics as a basis in any argument it is always a good idea to use correct figures when doing so because you will be called out for pulling numbers out of the thin air that are fictional in order to support you're argument ...
^You're both making blind arguments because you both fail to acknowledge that there are way too many variables to account for that make your "comparisons" pitiful at best
My bad the site i looked at had him at 93 and johnson at 112 http://www.fftoolbox.com/football/20...ort.cfm?pos=WR
It still doesnt change the comparison between the same points in their career, Also we do not throw the ball more than houston, so saying we are in a pass oriented offense and theirs is a run oriented is not accurate, they throw it more and we run it more its the exact opposite
Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute">
You'd get very little agreement around the league on that.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
I didnt make the comparison i only pointed out if your going to compare the 2 you have to compare the same points in their career.
OK ... where did I say I was "thrilled" about 20-25 passing and 10-15 rushing TDs? All I'm saying is that that's what we've been getting EVERY YEAR, Wallace or no Wallace. Holmes or no Holmes. Burress or no Burress. That's what this offense produces. We're on pace for about that again. Over the course of a decade, Wallace is a blip on the radar. Why would I think everything is suddenly going to go to upside-down if one guy is or isn't here?
No, I don't think this is production that will simply disappear. Most of it will be replaced. These are NFL receivers; they're all playmakers. There are a lot of guys who can make a catch in coverage and the occasional circus catch.
Fine, let's say Wallace is going to score more often than whoever we might draft or bring in to replace him. What's the trade-off, $10M a year for 2 or 3 scores? No thanks. We'd be way better off spending the money elsewhere.
See you Space Cowboy ...
Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute">
Mike Wallace is a very important part of remainder of our season. So is Antonio Brown and Emanuel Sanders. What comes after the season I really don't know or care at this point? But I'm not going to disparage any one of them at the moment, because I think they're all going to be major players in a successfull Steelers playoff run. This season!
So fuck this thread and this subject.
I'm going to sit back and watch them all make plays to help this team win now!
"A man's got to know his limitations."
look again at my above post .....
better yet click here and then you can deflect and change your argument again ...
http://www.steelers.com/team/statistics.html
http://www.houstontexans.com/team/statistics.html
now do you care to tell me again who throws the ball more ???
now do you care to tell me again who runs the ball more ??
again PLEASE if your going to use stats get it right or run the risk of looking foolish
- - - Upda
on espn it gave me defense when i clicked attempts so i gave you the oppents numbers. ok this year they run the ball more as well well as 2011 but not the case in 2010 or 2009. So in 2 of the three years wallace and johnson would be compared houston threw the ball more.
Hey Zu I told you he was gonna catch 2 tds
you again confuse me with you're post ... not going to look up your stats this time am tiring of that but you list 4 seasons now claiming 2 fit you're viewpoint and 2 do not then claim 2 out of 3 times ...
i do not know wtf you are talking about this time and am not even going to try and figure it out ... but without links to the stats I will just assume they are as correct as all the rest you posted ( none of which have been close to correct yet ) and will leave this debate because based on fact between the two of us I am the only one who has brought fact to the table and I can only take so much winning in one day without my head swelling to the point my hat no longer fits ... so for my hats sake I am out
Array title="zulater has a reputation beyond repute">
Well done on your part! .
I just think it's time to step back and let the season play out and not play one Steeler against the other. We're going to need all 3 of them, plus Cotchery and Burress to get this thing to the playoffs.
"A man's got to know his limitations."
LOL. For your hats sake.
well you certainly seem to imply that you feel satisfactory with that kind of production. Why would you go back 10 years with this 20-25 passing TD's, 10-15 rushing TD pattern of yours? Thats inexplicably ignoring all of the monumental rule changes that have happened that have made the game so much easier for the offense than ever before. The scoring production is horrible. Many of these rules come after we've kicked burress and holmes to the curve so your point is completely moot. You risk taking away Big Ben's TOP WEAPONS the past 3 years while he's entering his prime. wtf do you think is going to happen. Someone is going to step up and match or exceed the production? We've been forced to wish for that all season from nearly every position and look how thats going. Yes, you're right "these are nfl receivers," but no, they are not all playmakers. Thats a huge false generalization. If Sanders is the reason why youre confidence looms high if we lose wallace, im not sure where that confidence is coming from because the nfl isnt a plug-and-play league. You take drafted talent for granted. Wallace made us forget all about Santonio when these boards were up in flames about him being traded for a 5th round pick. But thats one incident of us being successful at drafting a replacement. One incident DOES NOT make a pattern. Even Wallace was far more productive than sanders before he replaced santonio. And where on earth did you get the notion that were going to get 2 or 3 additional scores from paying 10 million dollars? You do realize he has many more touchdown receptions than that compared to the rest of the entire receiving corp combined? And those scores have come in diverse fashion too, so this 40-time and one trick pony crap isnt gonna fly. Brown and Sanders have proven highly effective in this offense, but they havent shown anybody anything to prove that they can score once were inside the 20. Absolutely nothing. Anyone is going to have a hard time disputing that.
Oh by the way, this is in a DOWN year that he's doing these things. Everyone else on the other hand is or was on their way to having their finest year and still arent doing quite everything wallace is doing...in a DOWN year.
Call me crazy but imo, other than the defense, Big Ben carries this team. And he's playing at his best, and we all know its not going to last long. So we better pounce on the opportunity to arm Ben to the max or that long superbowl drought from decades ago might loom large again
wallaces 3 seasons 09 10 11 houston has thrown the ball more than us in 2 of the 3, this year they are throwing the ball less than us, you were right.
- - - Updated - - -
Well said.
It has nothing to do with feeling like it's good or bad. The stats are the stats. No one receiver has made us much better or worse at scoring touchdowns. I went back a decade so that you could see there was an overwhelming amount of evidence for that.
Actually, since all these rule changes came in after Burress and Holmes were gone, that makes YOUR point completely moot. We ought to be scoring MORE touchdowns now, right? And the stats of our current receivers should be inflated, right? So the fact that they aren't kind of goes against the argument of Wallace (or any of our WRs) being super valuable.
... anyway. I completely get the idea of providing Ben with the right weapons, I just don't think spending $20M+ on three receivers is going to work out for us. Then it'll be straight back to having problems with the O-Line or the secondary when we don't have enough cash to re-sign guys like Lewis or Pouncey. Maybe it would be Sanders or Brown who would take up the slack for Wallace, maybe it would be somebody else. But the slack always gets taken up. Holmes wasn't "proven" when Burress left; Wallace wasn't "proven" when Holmes left. We seem to find a way to at least stop from regressing. Frankly, given the way some of these guys have performed after leaving the Steelers (particularly Santonio), I'd guess that a good QB makes more difference to their production than the other way around. So forgive me if I'm not crazy about blowing a sixth of our salary cap on a place that appears to make about 5% of the difference.
See you Space Cowboy ...
And the "Great Wallace Debate" rages on...and on...and on...
Substitute "Willie Parker" "minus the long runs" blah blah blah, LOL
Merry Christmas
holmes was far better than sanders was right now before he took over for burress. Even then, it took him several years before he actually played with starting-quality. Wallace was also far better than sanders right before he took over for holmes. Neither holmes nor wallace were "proven" before they replaced their formers, but they showed far more than sanders has, and sanders has had more time than both of them to prove himself. Depends on what kind of production you're looking for from your #1/#2 I suppose. Hypothetical questions to ask oneself: Did i find santonio holmes' production as a starter above the line? Did i find mike wallace's production as a starter above the line? If the answer is no, you have a much less promising prospect about to take over sooner than later. And no, my point isnt moot because if were scoring at such miniscule levels now, how bad do you think its going to get without our biggest scoring weapon? Lol, better??? Doubt it. Probably worse, or at best, production would "stay the same," as you seem to be assuming. But how could anyone be ok with how much were scoring currently? We are clearly underachieving big time. Youve explained quite thoroughly how you anticipate wallace is going to be replaced, but even you dont seem confident in that scenario seeing how "Maybe it would be Sanders or Brown who would take up the slack for Wallace, maybe it would be somebody else."
Touchdowns are valuable and so are guys who score them. Santonio holmes didnt do much because he went to the jets and sanchez is horrible, burress actually was better when he left he turned out to be really good, thats ben always wanted him back. What your saying is we can put anyone at receiver despite their talent level and they will put up wallaces numbers but that just not true. Ive posted many times that the numbers wallace put up through his first 3 seasons, only 2 receivers in nfl history put up better numbers in their first 3 years and that was jerry rice and randy moss thats pretty impressive company. You just dont do that in pro football unless your really good.
Holmes wasn't even on the TEAM until two years after Burress left. The year in between, we won the Super Bowl with Ward, Randle El and Cedrick Wilson, ba-durr. I guess we're not going to agree on this, but I don't think it makes that much of a difference.
As for Burress and Holmes' divergent career paths after leaving the Steelers - that only reinforces the importance of a good QB. Burress went to another team with at least a respectable passer, and he kept doing well. Holmes went to a team with Mark Sanchez and sucked. Hell, Larry Fitzgerald is a middle-of-the-pack receiver this year with no QB. Ben probably has a lot more to do with the success of Wallace (or anyone else) than most people realize.
See you Space Cowboy ...
ward had 11 tds in that superbowl season 2005
Yeah thats a given i suppose. I just dont to live to see the day where Ben has a great year but falls just short of a superbowl win because he was great, but couldve been a little better with some help
Why is it ridiculous? You are determining what a player brings in terms of how much you should pay him. Your entire outlook on Wallace is based purely on personal feelings, not logic. You say it's not his job to fight for passes. You say fundamentals are not important. You say the only thing he brings is a 40 time. Again, why not replace him with an WR who can run fast? It would be cheaper
Again, I explained this before in another thread. The more targets the more catches/stats.he continues to catch alot of passes and multiple tds
You are probably thinking his TDs in garbage time are something to throw big money at. Where was he during the middle of the game? Oh that's right, he let another pass clang off his poor hands.
A better route runner than Brown or Sanders? Do you watch the games or just look at the box score in Monday's sports page?
Look at every WR with 100 or more targets. What do you see?despite their talent level and they will put up wallaces numbers but that just not true
Why do you want to give big money to a WR who deliberately doesn't try?
Hater = Realist
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
