Steelers notebook: Clark maintains Cruz hit was within the rules

[stillers4me]

Ryan Clark, who has enjoyed a combative relationship with Roger Goodell, probably will spar again this week with the NFL commissioner after Clark was penalized for hitting Giants’ receiver Victor Cruz, who suffered a rib injury but returned to the game.

“I thought I did the right thing.

I hit him in his ribs,” Clark said. “I tried to get my head to the side, tried to obey the rules as they’ve been laid down to me. I think referees have meetings about me before the game. I think anytime they see 25 flash across, it’s going to be an opportunity for me to get a flag.”............


Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/...#ixzz2BLONbMrA

[steeldawg]

I cannot imagine the league fining him for this, watching the replay its not even close.

[zulater]

The ref who threw the flag should be fined.

[Austin87]

The ref who threw the flag should be fined.

This.

[X-Terminator]

I cannot imagine the league fining him for this, watching the replay its not even close.

You forget who is in charge. That said, I don't think he'll be fined either - the hit was as textbook and clean as it gets, even more so than his hit last week on RGIII.

[fansince'76]

Of course, Rainey getting SPEARED was all good...

[NCSteeler]

Once again flagging the result no the hit. I guarantee the ref didn't even see the full hit, just the players laying looking knocked out. And yes Rainey was speared LATE.

[katmandu]

The ref who threw the flag should be fined.

x2.

I really think the League needs to have a rule to review penalties such as this one on Clark.

Any Penalty flag thrown that results in 15 Yards or more (Pass Interference) should be automatically reviewed in the booth.

These NON-penalties are so damaging to the Game being played, the Player's (reputation) being flagged and most importantly to the integrity of the NFL.

Also, the NFL needs to track the Refs who are throwing out these bad calls (if they aren't already). Then the Ref in question needs to have negative consequences placed on him as a result.

In my line of work, if I fukk up, people DIE (I'm a Clinical Scientist)....Give out the wrong unit of Blood to a patient or wrong Lab results etc... I would think there are consequences for YOU also if you fukk up in your job as well. RIGHT ?

I really hope the Owner's take a look at this in the future

[Craic]

The ref who threw the flag should be fined.

Actually, that's the worst thing you can do. Start fining the refs, and they'll swallow their whistles and keep their flags in their pockets. Sounds good right? Until something drastic happens to our guys. Yeah I know, the refs never blah blah blah. Sorry, but right now we're within the normal margin of error for missed calls for an NFL team. Trust me, if you start fining the refs, it'd be the worst result imaginable.

Wait, why don't we fine them for missing plays as well! Let me answer that objection right away. First, you can't fine someone for what they did not see, and there's no proving that they did see it or didn't see it, moreover, that they did or did not see it in the same way anyone else is. Last night's fumble is the perfect example (though extreme). Second, remember these are not professional refs. These refs all have full time jobs. So if you start instilling financial penalties, I'll guarantee you that a number of them will simply walk away from the game, because they don't need this income. It's not like the players.

The result? You saw the first few weeks. Is that what you really want to go back to?

Nope - I've said it a hundred times already. Clark got flagged based on his reputation. It's his fault for rightly earning the reputation, and it's something he'll have to live with until he proves that he is hitting clean consistently. He put himself in this hole. Personally, I think it'll take two more bad flags before the refs start giving him some leniency.

[steelreserve]

Actually, that's the worst thing you can do. Start fining the refs, and they'll swallow their whistles and keep their flags in their pockets. Sounds good right? Until something drastic happens to our guys. Yeah I know, the refs never blah blah blah. Sorry, but right now we're within the normal margin of error for missed calls for an NFL team. Trust me, if you start fining the refs, it'd be the worst result imaginable.

The result? You saw the first few weeks. Is that what you really want to go back to?

Cops get suspended all the time for doing a bad job, and they don't have the benefit of instant replay. The result wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as you think.

And no, I wouldn't have any problem with the existing refs swallowing their whistles or the ones who fuck up the most often walking away from the game. If "something drastic" happened to one of our guys, guess what? IT WOULD'VE HAPPENED ANYWAY. Why? Because having the refs throw more random personal foul flags doesn't prevent a single injury. It just adds more random penalties that, as you saw yesterday, can cost a team a game.

As for the first weeks of this season, 1) If a handful of NFL refs walked away in a situation like this, they wouldn't be replaced by the replacement officials from this year. It's not a temporary lockout situation. They'd be replaced by officials from the SEC, Pac-12, Big 12, etc. 2) I didn't have much of a problem with the replacement officials. As should be painfully obvious, the regular refs are every bit as bad at blowing calls. It was actually refreshing to have a break from the type of bullshit we saw yesterday. You know - real NFL football instead of lawyerball and bitching over pass interference.

[fansince'76]

The result? You saw the first few weeks. Is that what you really want to go back to?

I fail to see how the first few weeks with the scabs were any worse than that 1st half yesterday, sorry. I'm also beyond sick of seeing flags fly for the RESULTS of hits (see Cruz lying on the ground in the end zone), rather than for the hits themselves being illegal.

[Craic]

I fail to see how the first few weeks with the scabs were any worse than that 1st quarter yesterday, sorry. I'm beyond sick of seeing flags fly for the RESULTS of hits (see Cruz laying on the ground in the end zone), rather than for the hits themselves being illegal.

It's been that way for years - and I agree with you completely that the "Blood draws the bigger penalty" mentality is horrid. It's one of the issues that drove me away from watching hockey. But again, I blame that penalty last night on Clark's reputation - and he'll have to live with it for a while longer. It is what it is. As far as the first few weeks (this is answering your question FS, but not referencing you, if that makes sense), I remember people yelling and screaming about the scabs on this board. Some going as far as to say that Goodell was making the league a parody of itself, and that if he really cared about safety, he'd bring the real refs back - and now all of a sudden, there's no difference between the two? That just doesn't compute.

I was as torqued off last night as anyone else watching the game. That first PI call was ridiculous. The only things I can imagine the ref seeing, are quite far out there (like seeing a stutter step and thinking that the guy was held). It was a blown call. Period. Horrible call, matter of fact. I've already described what I think about the hit by Clark, and what people also don't realize about that hit, is where the ref was standing. The ref that threw the flag was standing in the back of the endzone, just a tad bit behind Clark. He saw Clark lower his head, and then saw a violent impact, with both heads at the same level. With Clark's reputation, he gets that flag. I don't even blame the ref for throwing it. I DO blame the (Field judge, wasn't it?) standing just before the endzone who had a better view of the play, but he may have been watching the ball and Ike to see if it was intercepted (I believe it was Ike).

We've been on the good side of bad calls as well. As long as you have humans reffing the games, this will happen. But I think that making a mountain out of what turns out to be one truly unjustifiably bad call, isn't the best way to go about it either.

[fansince'76]

As far as the first few weeks (this is answering your question FS, but not referencing you, if that makes sense), I remember people yelling and screaming about the scabs on this board. Some going as far as to say that Goodell was making the league a parody of itself, and that if he really cared about safety, he'd bring the real refs back - and now all of a sudden, there's no difference between the two? That just doesn't compute.

I wasn't one of them. I clearly stated more than once at the time that I saw little difference between the scabs and the "regulars," that the whole scab ref media-induced "controversy" was wildly overblown, and, as SR pointed out above, thought it was refreshing to see the refs swallow their whistles, eschew "Lawyerball," and let the players play for a change in a number of instances.

I feel reasonably sure that this BS flag would not have been thrown by the scabs:

[zulater]

Cops get suspended all the time for doing a bad job, and they don't have the benefit of instant replay. The result wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as you think.

And no, I wouldn't have any problem with the existing refs swallowing their whistles or the ones who fuck up the most often walking away from the game. If "something drastic" happened to one of our guys, guess what? IT WOULD'VE HAPPENED ANYWAY. Why? Because having the refs throw more random personal foul flags doesn't prevent a single injury. It just adds more random penalties that, as you saw yesterday, can cost a team a game.

As for the first weeks of this season, 1) If a handful of NFL refs walked away in a situation like this, they wouldn't be replaced by the replacement officials from this year. It's not a temporary lockout situation. They'd be replaced by officials from the SEC, Pac-12, Big 12, etc. 2) I didn't have much of a problem with the replacement officials. As should be painfully obvious, the regular refs are every bit as bad at blowing calls. It was actually refreshing to have a break from the type of bullshit we saw yesterday. You know - real NFL football instead of lawyerball and bitching over pass interference.

Great post, thanks for saving me the keystrokes.

[HollywoodSteel]

Actually, that's the worst thing you can do. Start fining the refs, and they'll swallow their whistles and keep their flags in their pockets. Sounds good right? Until something drastic happens to our guys. Yeah I know, the refs never blah blah blah. Sorry, but right now we're within the normal margin of error for missed calls for an NFL team. Trust me, if you start fining the refs, it'd be the worst result imaginable.

Wait, why don't we fine them for missing plays as well! Let me answer that objection right away. First, you can't fine someone for what they did not see, and there's no proving that they did see it or didn't see it, moreover, that they did or did not see it in the same way anyone else is. Last night's fumble is the perfect example (though extreme). Second, remember these are not professional refs. These refs all have full time jobs. So if you start instilling financial penalties, I'll guarantee you that a number of them will simply walk away from the game, because they don't need this income. It's not like the players.

The result? You saw the first few weeks. Is that what you really want to go back to?

Nope - I've said it a hundred times already. Clark got flagged based on his reputation. It's his fault for rightly earning the reputation, and it's something he'll have to live with until he proves that he is hitting clean consistently. He put himself in this hole. Personally, I think it'll take two more bad flags before the refs start giving him some leniency.

I think the "fine the refs" thing is a little tongue in cheek, but in reality there is a system in place to grade refs and it does end up affecting the money in their pocket (who gets playoff games and all). The only problem is, I'm not sure they get poor marks in situations like this. I've heard Mike Pereira say unequivocally, and without apology, that refs are told that when it comes to helmet-to-helmet fouls, when in doubt throw the flag. That seems to imply that they have ample cover when they get it horribly wrong.

I understand your comment about Clark's reputation, and of course refs aren't immune to human bias, but I think if any ref ever admitted to throwing a flag based on reputation, he should be fired on the spot. That's the league's job to fine and punish multiple offenders. The ref's job is to be a completely UNBIASED judge on the field. So while it may indeed be true, it is not an acceptable excuse. In fact it is doubly egregious than just getting the call wrong because it happened too quickly to see clearly.

[Craic]

Cops and stuff.

Really? You're going to equate cops, that goes through a full academy, then works 40 plus hours a week, while given a deadly weapon and the authority to uphold the law, with a bunch of part time guys doing this on the weekend?

I'm not sure whether to think your so zealous for the Steelers that you can't see the implicit silliness of the comparison, or that your just trolling at this point.

And for the rest of your post Sr, your picking and choosing, which is the exactly opposite of reality. First, the bad refs will swallow their whistle - and more crap will go on. The good refs will make the calls, and sooner or later, get something wrong and be fined. So tell me, which one do you think would walk away from the game, the good refs, or the bad ones? The bad ones will stick around, because they just won't call anything.

Oh, and you think that in the middle of a season an SEC or PAC 10 (grew up with it being PAC 10, it'll always be PAC 10 for me!) official will make the jump, and be able to handle all the rule changes in a week of training? Really? I don't see it, I don't buy it. Sure, they'd make the jump in the offseason, but that's not when it'd happen. Personally, I think this is all an overreaction to two bad calls - and one that could have gone either way.

______
On a general note: if this is how we're reacting now, imagine if it was the playoffs. "The fix is in! The fix is in! Oh wait, no Seattle and Arizona, I'm not talking about those games. You're just being stupid. But it's IN AGAINST US!"

[steelreserve]

I've already described what I think about the hit by Clark, and what people also don't realize about that hit, is where the ref was standing. The ref that threw the flag was standing in the back of the endzone, just a tad bit behind Clark. He saw Clark lower his head, and then saw a violent impact, with both heads at the same level. With Clark's reputation, he gets that flag. I don't even blame the ref for throwing it.

So basically ... if the ref has no idea what the fuck is going on because he wasn't in position to see the play, might as well go ahead and throw a flag? I hope not.

[Craic]

I think the "fine the refs" thing is a little tongue in cheek, but in reality there is a system in place to grade refs and it does end up affecting the money in their pocket (who gets playoff games and all). The only problem is, I'm not sure they get poor marks in situations like this. I've heard Mike Pereira say unequivocally, and without apology, that refs are told that when it comes to helmet-to-helmet fouls, when in doubt throw the flag. That seems to imply that they have ample cover when they get it horribly wrong.

I understand your comment about Clark's reputation, and of course refs aren't immune to human bias, but I think if any ref ever admitted to throwing a flag based on reputation, he should be fired on the spot. That's the league's job to fine and punish multiple offenders. The ref's job is to be a completely UNBIASED judge on the field. So while it may indeed be true, it is not an acceptable excuse. In fact it is doubly egregious than just getting the call wrong because it happened too quickly to see clearly.

You really think it's tongue in cheek here? Come on HS, you've been around this forum long enough to know better than that.

As for your first paragraph outside of that, yeah, your right all the way around. I think it's good to have a system like that and, if I understand it correctly, it's not based on one call but rather, their overall performance in the season, which is a much better metric.

Your second paragraph however, completely contradicts your first paragraph. If the ref is told "when in doubt, throw the flag" concerning helmet to helmet hits, and a player with a history of helmet to helmet hits destroys a player, while the ref who is watching sees his helmet at helmet level (to the other guy), then the instruction to throw the flag is absolutely in place and controls the flag being thrown.

Bias is siding with one team or the other. Clark's issue isn't bias against him. It's that he has a clear track record that refs are very aware of, and thus, when in doubt . . . I'm sorry, but when you make yourself a target, you deal with the consequences.

So basically ... if the ref has no idea what the fuck is going on because he wasn't in position to see the play, might as well go ahead and throw a flag? I hope not.

See this conversation with HollywoodSteel.

[Dino 6 Rings]

Was a horrible call. But we overcame

[HollywoodSteel]

So basically ... if the ref has no idea what the fuck is going on because he wasn't in position to see the play, might as well go ahead and throw a flag? I hope not.

I re-watched the hit in real time, and not only was the official in perfect position to see the hit (he was on the back line staring right at it) but even in real time it was so clearly shoulder to shoulder that the flag can't even be blamed on the quickness of it.

My personal take is that the ref's eyes were probably on the ball as it left the receiver's hands and only caught the hit out of the corner of his eye. It probably sounded loud at that distance and then he sees the receiver on the ground not moving and #25 getting up next to him. Preacher is probably kind of right that Clark being involved might have triggered something in the back of the ref's mind, but honestly I think if it played out the way I described he would have thrown the flag no matter who made the hit. As I said above, he won't get judged from the league for throwing a bad flag, but he'll catch hell for failing to throw one if it was indeed helmet to helmet.

[HollywoodSteel]

You really think it's tongue in cheek here? Come on HS, you've been around this forum long enough to know better than that.

As for your first paragraph outside of that, yeah, your right all the way around. I think it's good to have a system like that and, if I understand it correctly, it's not based on one call but rather, their overall performance in the season, which is a much better metric.

Your second paragraph however, completely contradicts your first paragraph. If the ref is told "when in doubt, throw the flag" concerning helmet to helmet hits, and a player with a history of helmet to helmet hits destroys a player, while the ref who is watching sees his helmet at helmet level (to the other guy), then the instruction to throw the flag is absolutely in place and controls the flag being thrown.

Bias is siding with one team or the other. Clark's issue isn't bias against him. It's that he has a clear track record that refs are very aware of, and thus, when in doubt . . . I'm sorry, but when you make yourself a target, you deal with the consequences.

Okay, I took it as tongue in cheek, but I will give you this one. I just think the general sentiment is that there should be some accountability that includes bad personal helmet to helmet calls, and I don't think there really is in the same way the refs are graded on other bad calls.

I don't see how my paragraphs contradict each other. I believe the refs are told, "when in doubt throw the flag, no matter the perpetrator." I can't believe they are told, "when in doubt throw the flag, especially against a repeat offender." Not only would this be clearly outside the scope of the ref's job, it is redundant. Why would you need an especially if you're already throwing the flag because there is doubt? Surely you can't be saying that they are told to throw the flag against repeat offenders even if they are pretty sure there is no foul.

What I'm saying is, you might be right that who the perpetrator is could affect the weird calculus that goes on in a ref's head, but it shouldn't. For the record, I don't agree with the NFL's policy about doubt. I think it should be like any other flag. If you saw a penalty, call it. If you didn't don't.

And I believe I am using the word bias correctly. It doesn't just mean liking someone more. There can be negative bias against an individual for all kinds of reasons. Here are two definitions:

A preference or an inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.

An unfair act or policy stemming from prejudice.

[bayz101]

I don't give a shit what you say, you don't throw flags based on a players reputation. That's stupid. If you don't SEE the fucking hit, you don't throw the damn flag. But that's not the case here. The ref was in PERFECT POSITION at the time of the hit, and called it a helmet hit. The hit was text-book. The hit was hard, but what was he supposed to do? Lay off? Why? So we can all bitch at him for playing soft?

The ball was in the air at the time of the hit, and Clark hit him as perfect as it gets. If you think he deserved a flag, regardless of the hits legality, you're only kidding yourself. I think that's laughable. FUCK the new rules. Say what you want, but FOOTBALL IS A VIOLENT SPORT. When you're being flagged for making hard, text-book hits, the game is fucked. I'm sorry for cursing so much, but the thought of this being acceptable is just atrocious to me.

[ALLD]

I am surprised James Harrison also did not draw a flag on that play too. It has been reported for the blown call, the ref has received poor feedback on his ebay account.