Mike Wallace = No Money.

[steeldawg]

1. As the #2 receiver Brown has the same number of receptions and yards as wallace while playing 20%+ fewer games....which says even less about Wallace.
2. Don't pretend to be a capologist. You are not.
3. I trust the Steelers judgement on this.

1. that still does not mean brown can do what wallace does he just does not force defenses to keep safeties deep, and wallace still puts the points on the board.
2. not trying to pretend to be anything, so i will say again we can get under the cap.
3. I think if they try to go forward with brown sanders cotchery it will be a mistake and a mistake that will hinder us for at least 5 years until AB's contract is up.

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Which is why we can't re-sign Wallace.

No we can re sign him but we overpaid brown.

[bayz101]

1. that still does not mean brown can do what wallace does he just does not force defenses to keep safeties deep, and wallace still puts the points on the board.
2. not trying to pretend to be anything, so i will say again we can get under the cap.
3. I think if they try to go forward with brown sanders cotchery it will be a mistake and a mistake that will hinder us for at least 5 years until AB's contract is up.

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No we can re sign him but we overpaid brown.

That's a BULLSHIT statement. We didn't overpay Brown.

[zulater]

1. that still does not mean brown can do what wallace does he just does not force defenses to keep safeties deep, and wallace still puts the points on the board.
2. not trying to pretend to be anything, so i will say again we can get under the cap.
3. I think if they try to go forward with brown sanders cotchery it will be a mistake and a mistake that will hinder us for at least 5 years until AB's contract is up.

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No we can re sign him but we overpaid brown.

We've already established that's not a commonly held view among us.

[steeldawg]

That's a BULLSHIT statement. We didn't overpay Brown.

We overpaid brown

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We've already established that's very much your view and your view almost alone. .

ya just like we didnt overpay him is your view.

[zulater]

We overpaid brown

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ya just like we didnt overpay him is your view.

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/foru...-Antonio-Brown

Mine and an overwhelming majority of other people who post here.

[steeldawg]

http://www.steelersuniverse.com/foru...-Antonio-Brown

Mine and an overwhelming majority of other people who post here.

could really care less what the majority who posts here thinks.

[zulater]

could really care less what the majority who posts here thinks.

Yeah because yours is the only opinion that matters. Got ya.

[steeldawg]

Yeah because yours is the only opinion that matters. Got ya.

My opinion is only my opinion it hold no more weight than anybody elses opinion around here. This is a debate in an open forum, i simply state my case and stick by my guns, if you dont like that its ur own problem.

[zulater]

My opinion is only my opinion it hold no more weight than anybody elses opinion around here. This is a debate in an open forum, i simply state my case and stick by my guns, if you dont like that its ur own problem.

When you state your opinion as if it's indisputable fact I'll call you for it every time.

[steeldawg]

When you state your opinion as if it's indisputable fact I'll call you for it every time.

how did i state my opinion as indisputable fact

[zulater]

how did i state my opinion as indisputable fact

When you repeatedly state "we overpayed Brown" as the premise of your argument.

[bayz101]

I've only seen someone state we overpaid Brown once, and this is it. I would imagine someone willing to contribute to discussion would at least explain his reasoning. We did NOT overpay Brown. He's a great all-around receiver. Not saying he's better than Wallace, but it's pretty damn close. Wallace isn't among the best in the NFL with his play on the field thus far, but all that really matters is he steps it up in the playoffs and ultimately, the big game. If Brown is making less than 8 million a year, saying he's overpaid is ridiculous. If that's the case, giving Wallace a CENT more than Brown is too much. Mike Wallace may have the touchdown lead on the team right now, but i'm almost positive he has more scores in losses than he does in wins. Not saying that doesn't count, but it won't help us in the long-run.

Both receivers may have their faults, but I wouldn't pay one more than the other. I voted 9 million in the previous thread, and that was being generous based on everything I've seen thus far. I was sort of predicting his future performances with that vote, and I hope it pays off.

[Steeldude]

FAIL! HUGE fail! Maybe you aren't talking about the Chiefs game.

Actually, I've been critical of Wallace...a lot. Just not overly criticize because I'm still butt hurt over him holding out and over him "allegedly" requesting "Fitzgerald Money" like you are. But that's okay...to each his own. People can be upset about it. It's funny how his route running, poor skills, poor hands, poor concentration have all come to the forefront now and not any of his other seasons...lol. Putting up better numbers than Antonio Brown, yet getting paid $6M less and because his fundamentals are "poor," he gets criticized. How about the criticism of Antonio Brown...lets be real, he's not producing like his paycheck says he should...oh, but he comes back to the ball and catches it at its highest point...he has good "hands." Lol...

Maybe if you'd watch more than the ball, you'd see what Wallace brings to the game besides his speed. Go back and try to read my last post again...maybe you just didn't comprehend it the first time.

I have brought up his his route running, skills, hands and concentration before this season.

I have criticized Brown many times. From his fumbles to his disrespectful celebration. Unlike you, I don't play favorites with players. They are all subject to criticism when they screw up.

I believe for the third time you have dodged my question. I will ask again. What does Wallace bring besides his 40 time? Will you dodge a 4th time? Your statement that Wallace is the reason passes are available underneath is absurd. Also, that doesn't answer my question. That merely shows once again that all you can think of is his 40 time. Did you know most WRs on fly patterns draw the attention of the safety? Remember when Washington was here? He isn't as fast as Wallace, but he drew the safety's attention.

So let's recap. Your entire belief on what makes a WR is a 40 time. You don't seem to care if he can catch, run routes, block, put forth effort or play special teams.

How is listing what a WR can and cannot do irrelevant in determining his worth? Can you explain or will you run away again...lol?

Now don't forget to answer my question about what Wallace brings besides his 40 time. I think we all know why do keep dodging it

[Steeldude]

Wrong the arguement for money is production, again i will point out wallaces production over his first three seasons, which were better than any other first 3 seasons by a WR in the nfl except jerry rice and randy moss. After that wallace has to play for 2.7 million dollars while brown gets 8 million for one season of 1200 yds and 2 tds, I would of held out too. Now after the holdout he plays for the 2.7 million and is on his way to having a career year, and wheres brown on the bench injured sitting on 1 td, but hey at least his funamentals are good because we all know that the reason guys are paid in this league is because of fundamentals and not production .

The argument for money is what he brings and how to fit it into the salary cap. You are focusing on TDs. I don't think you realize that TD receptions are not the only thing a receiver can do. How many TDs does Wallace have on crossing patterns/curls vs. posts/flies? I am not knocking Wallace. He runs the pattern he is told to run. My point is your more likely to get TDs on long fly patterns/posts than curls etc... How many other WRs are sent long compared to Wallace? You are under the impression that Wallace is the only WR who can run fly patterns/posts. They have him run these because he has speed and his other routes are weaker. In other words, they are using him based on what he does best. No one has said they don't want Wallace signed. We are debating on what he is worth based on what he brings to the team and how it will affect the cap in 2013. Cuts will have to be made and contracts will need to be restructured. It's not as simple as saying, "Here is your money".

because of fundamentals and not production

Remember Burress?

After that wallace has to play for 2.7 million dollars while brown gets 8 million for one season of 1200 yds and 2 tds

That was Wallace's choice. No one forced him to holdout or turn down the Steelers' last offer. Wallace hurt himself. If Wallace signed before Brown then Brown would have a smaller contract or could possibly be a victim of the salary cap. Again, there is more to playing WR than TD catches. This is similar to the argument some fans have on Woodley. They bring up he has some sacks to justify his contract. They completely ignore the other factors involved with playing LB. What you have done is created a measuring stick based on TD receptions only. If all teams ran it that way then there would be an awful lot of WRs getting over $8,000,000 a season.

How good would Miller be without out his great fundamentals? Can you answer?

What does Wallace bring besides his 40 time? <--- This one has been repeatedly ignored by the Wallace supporters in this thread.

[bayz101]

"What does Wallace bring besides his 40 time?".

Just quoting this. I'm going to attempt to answer it when i'm not drunk.

Here's my drunken opinion: Not much, at the moment. It's a question that could be easily answered by his playoff performances and god willing, his Super Bowl performance. I believe we can both agree on that.

[steeldawg]

When you repeatedly state "we overpayed Brown" as the premise of your argument.

So thats my opinon and i stand by it.

[steeldawg]

I've only seen someone state we overpaid Brown once, and this is it. I would imagine someone willing to contribute to discussion would at least explain his reasoning. We did NOT overpay Brown. He's a great all-around receiver. Not saying he's better than Wallace, but it's pretty damn close. Wallace isn't among the best in the NFL with his play on the field thus far, but all that really matters is he steps it up in the playoffs and ultimately, the big game. If Brown is making less than 8 million a year, saying he's overpaid is ridiculous. If that's the case, giving Wallace a CENT more than Brown is too much. Mike Wallace may have the touchdown lead on the team right now, but i'm almost positive he has more scores in losses than he does in wins. Not saying that doesn't count, but it won't help us in the long-run.

Both receivers may have their faults, but I wouldn't pay one more than the other. I voted 9 million in the previous thread, and that was being generous based on everything I've seen thus far. I was sort of predicting his future performances with that vote, and I hope it pays off.

In games that wallace has scored over his career 22 were wins 5 were losses its not even close usually when he scores we win. Brown has a total of 3 career tds 1 in a loss 2 in a win. Career wise wallace has outperformed recievers like desean jackson and vincent jackson both make more then brown. Walace should certainly be in the same same pay range as these recievers, nobody is making a case he should be paid as a top reciever but to suggest he should be paid the same or less than brown is absurd.

[zulater]

So thats my opinon and i stand by it.

That's fine that's your opinion. But when you use it as an ultimate trump card,,end of discussion argument, not so much.

In other words if I have a stand alone opinion it's kind of silly to use it to prop up my argument. It's be like me saying Tom Brady is overated, just because I say so.

So here you are saying Antonio Brown is overpayed. Virtually no one else agrees with you. So to keep throwing it in the discussion of Wallace relative worth seems absurd.

As far as this year's contract disparity between the two players is concerned , Steeldude put it best with this.

That was Wallace's choice. No one forced him to holdout or turn down the Steelers' last offer. Wallace hurt himself. If Wallace signed before Brown then Brown would have a smaller contract or could possibly be a victim of the salary cap.

I don't think anyone here doesn't want the Steelers to get a long term deal done with Wallace. All most of us are debating is, whether it will be done, and if so at what number.

There's no reason to attempt to tear down Antonio Brown in order to make your case.

[zulater]

I think last weeks game strongly suggested that Wallace misses Brown being in the line up more than Brown would miss Wallace. Simply put Wallace couldn't get open. Even at the end of the game when Leftwich finally found somewhat of a rythm he was hitting Sanders and Cotchery.


In my opinion based on what I've seen over the last 3 seasons I think Brown, Sanders, and Cotchery > Wallace, Sanders, and Cotchery.

Of course Brown, Wallace, and Sanders is greater than either.

[steeldawg]

That's fine that's your opinion. But when you use it as an ultimate trump card,,end of discussion argument, not so much.

In other words if I have a stand alone opinion it's kind of silly to use it to prop up my argument. It's be like me saying Tom Brady is overated, just because I say so.

So here you are saying Antonio Brown is overpayed. Virtually no one else agrees with you. So to keep throwing it in the discussion of Wallace relative worth seems absurd.

As far as this year's contract disparity between the two players is concerned , Steeldude put it best with this.



I don't think anyone here doesn't want the Steelers to get a long term deal done with Wallace. All most of us are debating is, whether it will be done, and if so at what number.

There's no reason to attempt to tear down Antonio Brown in order to make your case.

Lol because the majority of the people on this site dont agree with my opinion it suddenly makes my opinion less valid. No most of you are saying hes not worth more than brown browns a better receiver we would be just as explosive with brown instead of wallace, i dont agree with that and i didnt use it as a trump card i have backed my opinion up on this subject with stats, although many on here just say theres more to it than stats and i understand that but i also think wallace brings more to the table for the offense even outside the stats.

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I think last weeks game strongly suggested that Wallace misses Brown being in the line up more than Brown would miss Wallace. Simply put Wallace couldn't get open. Even at the end of the game when Leftwich finally found somewhat of a rythm he was hitting Sanders and Cotchery.


In my opinion based on what I've seen over the last 3 seasons I think Brown, Sanders, and Cotchery > Wallace, Sanders, and Cotchery.

Of course Brown, Wallace, and Sanders is greater than either.

wallace was drawing double coverage the entire game and he still caught a td, and we have not seen brown without wallace we havent seen brown having to beat double teams.

[GBMelBlount]

Maybe assigning values to his statistical perfomance might help to lessen the back and forth subjective arguments.

like ffl - lets just for example say that a touchdown is worth $500,000 and 100 yards is worth $500,000.

So for Calvin Johnson last year, just playing with those random values assigned, with about 1700 yard and 16 touchdowns his value would calculate to $16,500,000 for last year.

I am not saying this a perfect model, far from it, but based on the random values assigned, Wallace would have been worth $10,000,000 last year.

Assigning those values to Wallace this year through 9 games he would be worth $10.2 million.

There are better statistical models for sure with different values and weighting and maybe throwing receptions into the mix some how but then you start to add complexity and perhaps duplicity, etc.

Regardless, my argument is that these are the two biggest statistical factors in determining a players market value and based on the values I assigned (somewhat randomly) it arguably puts Wallace in that $9 million to $10 million per year range on the open market.

[steeldawg]

Maybe assigning values to his statistical perfomance might help to lessen the back and forth subjective arguments.

like ffl - lets just for example say that a touchdown is worth $500,000 and 100 yards is worth $500,000.

So for Calvin Johnson last year, just playing with those random values assigned, with about 1700 yard and 16 touchdowns his value would calculate to $16,500,000 for last year.

I am not saying this a perfect model, far from it, but based on the random values assigned, Wallace would have been worth $10,000,000 last year.

Assigning those values to Wallace this year through 9 games he would be worth $10.2 million.

There are definitely other factors but touchdowns and yards but I will argue that these are the two biggest statistical factors in determining a players market value.

They are huge stats because in 2011 we scored 36 tds wallace had 8 of them thats 22% of our tds, this year we have 21 tds wallace has 6 28% of out tds.

[zulater]

Maybe assigning values to his statistical perfomance might help to lessen the back and forth subjective arguments.

like ffl - lets just for example say that a touchdown is worth $500,000 and 100 yards is worth $500,000.

So for Calvin Johnson last year, just playing with those random values assigned, with about 1700 yard and 16 touchdowns his value would calculate to $16,500,000 for last year.

I am not saying this a perfect model, far from it, but based on the random values assigned, Wallace would have been worth $10,000,000 last year.

Assigning those values to Wallace this year through 9 games he would be worth $10.2 million.

There are better statistical models for sure with different values and weighting and maybe throwing receptions into the mix some how but then you start to add complexity and perhaps duplicity because these.

Regardless, my argument is that these are the two biggest statistical factors in determining a players market value and that it arguably puts Wallace in that $9 million to $10 million per year range on the open market.

I think the Steelers are willing to pay Wallace in the 10 million dollar area over a 3-4 year contract. I don't think wallace will accept though.

Again, he lost money this year by playing for the transition tag tender. The only way he makes that up is by flying the coop and finding that one team that will go full bore to sign him.

[X-Terminator]

I think the Steelers are willing to pay Wallace in the 10 million dollar area over a 3-4 year contract. I don't think wallace will accept though.

Again, he lost money this year by playing for the transition tag tender. The only way he makes that up is by flying the coop and finding that one team that will go full bore to sign him.

The Steelers offered 5 years, $50 million. The problem is guaranteed money, not term or overall value.

[zulater]

The Steelers offered 5 years, $50 million. The problem is guaranteed money, not term or overall value.

At his age you would think that Wallace wouldn't have much trouble seeing that contract through to the last dollar. Third contracts are usually the ones that back end money isn't realized by the player.

[X-Terminator]

At his age you would think that Wallace wouldn't have much trouble seeing that contract through to the last dollar. Third contracts are usually the ones that back end money isn't realized by the player.

Did someone forget to tell that to Darelle Revis?

[zulater]

Did someone forget to tell that to Darelle Revis?

I get that. But I also get that smart teams buy at .85 cents on a dollar or less, and outside of a franchise qb will never pay 1.10 on a dollar. Which is what you get once a player gets to UFA. I think the Steelers made a serious effort to sign Wallace and I've been led to believe they were quite surprised that they failed.

[Dwinsgames]

I am a little late to the game on this topic ( well all topics here since I am new ) but at the risk of being redundant I think what really needs to be seen here is

1) Sanders was ahead of Brown on the depth chart for a reason and injury's set him back now assuming the coaching staff was correct in their assessment of Sanders ability it would be fair to say Sanders is at the very least as good as Brown ..

2) Wallace in Haley's system is not a mandatory piece and a guy like Sanders could easily fill that role ..

3) being as up against the cap as we always are and having some key guys coming to the end of their contract the Steelers will have to be very careful on how they spend the money to continue to field a core group ( Starks on 1 year deal now , Pouncey will be entering his final year next season ) backing up the Brinks truck for Wallace will not be happening IMO that ship has sailed and they will be content on the supplemental selection they receive for him moving on and spending far to much money of some other teams cap space .. Just my opinion

[GBMelBlount]

DwinsgamesI am a little late to the game on this topic ( well all topics here since I am new ) but at the risk of being redundant I think what really needs to be seen here is

1) Sanders was ahead of Brown on the depth chart for a reason and injury's set him back now assuming the coaching staff was correct in their assessment of Sanders ability it would be fair to say Sanders is at the very least as good as Brown ..

Agree. It is important to see how Sanders develops the last half of this year....also, I am not sure it is a given that he is as good as Brown at this moment.

Dwinsgames

2) Wallace in Haley's system is not a mandatory piece and a guy like Sanders could easily fill that role ..

I agree that the loss of Wallace may be easier to absorb in Haley's system than others.

Dwinsgames

3) being as up against the cap as we always are and having some key guys coming to the end of their contract the Steelers will have to be very careful on how they spend the money to continue to field a core group ( Starks on 1 year deal now , Pouncey will be entering his final year next season ) backing up the Brinks truck for Wallace will not be happening IMO that ship has sailed and they will be content on the supplemental selection they receive for him moving on and spending far to much money of some other teams cap space .. Just my opinion

I agree. While his value on the open market may well be $10 million or more I am not sure he is worth that to us all things considered.

I guess that IS the $10 million dollar question.

[Seven]

2) Wallace in Haley's system is not a mandatory piece and a guy like Sanders could easily fill that role ..

Thank you! That's been my point since the beginning. Wallace is a fantastic player, but with Arians gone he is no longer a key piece. He's a luxury in this scheme and we're already in a pickle cap-wise without paying him $11 million yearly.