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Thread: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

  1. #31
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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    the only reason its lower over all is because teaching at a private school does not require certification, so many teachers can take jobs without certification. ?If the teacher takes the job without certification they get a lower salary. Also they do not have to follow a state curriculum and the class sizes are much smaller. So while an uncertified teacher may make a lower salary the conditions and resources are better. So if a private school teacher is certified with the same qualifications they make as much if not more than public, plus a more learning friendly enviroment.
    If you insist, I must point out some errors. While true that standards are different from public to private schools, the myth about certification is a couple decades old. While it's possible to get HIRED without a cert, you'll need to get it within a year or two.

    Also, parochial schools only pay about 15% less (on average) then public schools, and that's namely because they charge lower tuition. Parochial schools are VERY diverse now, so that kills the myth that the students are easier to teach. If you look at Montessori schools, who charge top-end prices, salaries are the same.

    The class size myth is also just that, especially in parochial schools. In MOST cases, public schools are actually much better funded, and can afford smaller class sizes. I have also yet to see a study that was NOT in some way funded or vested in or by Teachers unions that show any proof that small class sizes equal success. In fact, all the math I'm seeing out of the Chicago public schools (where only 6% of students go on to graduate from a 4-year University within 6 years of graduation) is about 13 or 14/1 student/teacher ratio.

    So, anyway, not to hijack the hijacking of my thread, but...gotta stick with the facts if you're gonna do this.
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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    If you insist, I must point out some errors. While true that standards are different from public to private schools, the myth about certification is a couple decades old. While it's possible to get HIRED without a cert, you'll need to get it within a year or two.

    Also, parochial schools only pay about 15% less (on average) then public schools, and that's namely because they charge lower tuition. Parochial schools are VERY diverse now, so that kills the myth that the students are easier to teach. If you look at Montessori schools, who charge top-end prices, salaries are the same.

    The class size myth is also just that, especially in parochial schools. In MOST cases, public schools are actually much better funded, and can afford smaller class sizes. I have also yet to see a study that was NOT in some way funded or vested in or by Teachers unions that show any proof that small class sizes equal success. In fact, all the math I'm seeing out of the Chicago public schools (where only 6% of students go on to graduate from a 4-year University within 6 years of graduation) is about 13 or 14/1 student/teacher ratio.

    So, anyway, not to hijack the hijacking of my thread, but...gotta stick with the facts if you're gonna do this.
    Smaller class sizes are not a myth national average for private schools are about 15:1 where public classroom size can sometimes exceed 35-40. And yes the part about ceritfication is true but it drives down the national averages for private school salaries. Meaning you can be a preschool teacher at a private school making $10 per hour with no certification so you cant compare it to a teacher who has gone through all of the schooling and certification. Where did i say students were easier to teach i only said the enviroment for teaching was better due to the small class sizes.

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Ok, here we go again.

    The public school student teacher ratio is EXACTLY (as of 2009) 15.4/1. It was 22.3/1 in 1970. It has been in steady decline since. I had 35-40 kids in MY public school classes, and the education I received was 100X better than the education my girlfriends daughters receive today at the best PUBLIC school in our County.

    In private schools, it's 12.5/1. Do you REALLY think 3 students more per teacher matters? If we factor in that as many as 30% of public school kids regularly miss class, it's probably actually about even.

    And, preschool isn't school. Let's keep this at the K-12 level, please. Daycare is a totally different animal, and the salaries will be all over the place.
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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    Ok, here we go again.

    The public school student teacher ratio is EXACTLY (as of 2009) 15.4/1. It was 22.3/1 in 1970. It has been in steady decline since. I had 35-40 kids in MY public school classes, and the education I received was 100X better than the education my girlfriends daughters receive today at the best PUBLIC school in our County.

    In private schools, it's 12.5/1. Do you REALLY think 3 students more per teacher matters? If we factor in that as many as 30% of public school kids regularly miss class, it's probably actually about even.

    And, preschool isn't school. Let's keep this at the K-12 level, please. Daycare is a totally different animal, and the salaries will be all over the place.
    Yes I read that stat to but it includes special ed and special need classes too which have much smaller class sizes, if you remove them the number is around 25 on average and in some schools 35-40.

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    the only reason its lower over all is because teaching at a private school does not require certification, so many teachers can take jobs without certification. ?If the teacher takes the job without certification they get a lower salary. Also they do not have to follow a state curriculum and the class sizes are much smaller. So while an uncertified teacher may make a lower salary the conditions and resources are better. So if a private school teacher is certified with the same qualifications they make as much if not more than public, plus a more learning friendly enviroment.
    My son is in first grade. We had a PTA of sorts last week and, for the states adopting this, the curriculum has changed so now first graders are being taught what previous third graders were taught.

    2nd grade <<--- 4th grade.

    3rd grade <<-- 5th grade.

    And so on and so forth. Two grades up from what was learned.

    I like it. It puts more on the parents due to the amount of work, but IMO there is no reason for kids to not be pushed. Graned, there will be more kids "pushed through the system", but at least they'll know more ... maybe.
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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    If you insist, I must point out some errors. While true that standards are different from public to private schools, the myth about certification is a couple decades old. While it's possible to get HIRED without a cert, you'll need to get it within a year or two.

    Also, parochial schools only pay about 15% less (on average) then public schools, and that's namely because they charge lower tuition. Parochial schools are VERY diverse now, so that kills the myth that the students are easier to teach. If you look at Montessori schools, who charge top-end prices, salaries are the same.
    You are making some great points.

    I guess the reason I assumed the public school teachers make about double is based on my daughter's school teacher's wages vs. what I thought was the average for public schools:

    ($50,000)

    http://www1.salary.com/Public-School...er-Salary.html

    I will double check my figures.

    The other thing that amazes me is that even though a lot more money is now being dumped into public education (per student) for smaller class sizes and better pay for teachers....that the public educational system is failing our children.

    ...and I guess what boggles my mind even more is that after 40 years of these excuses without any improvement the excuse is STILL that we are not spending enough money.

    Wow.
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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by BnG_Hevn View Post
    My son is in first grade. We had a PTA of sorts last week and, for the states adopting this, the curriculum has changed so now first graders are being taught what previous third graders were taught.

    2nd grade <<--- 4th grade.

    3rd grade <<-- 5th grade.

    And so on and so forth. Two grades up from what was learned.

    I like it. It puts more on the parents due to the amount of work, but IMO there is no reason for kids to not be pushed. Graned, there will be more kids "pushed through the system", but at least they'll know more ... maybe.
    Thats good i agree with it more education!

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Yes I read that stat to but it includes special ed and special need classes too which have much smaller class sizes, if you remove them the number is around 25 on average and in some schools 35-40.
    Please cite the source for this, specifically where the number jumps from 15 to 35 per teacher.
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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    Please cite the source for this, specifically where the number jumps from 15 to 35 per teacher.
    http://www.edweek.org/ew/issues/class-size/ also the 15 to 1 number only takes the total number of teachers vs total number of students its not an exact reflection of class size.

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    That's quite a reach. First off, it's an estimate. Secondly, that's nowhere NEAR "35-40". Additionally, it fails to define "specialized" (and that one will matter more in a second), so that could mean anything from music teachers to math teachers. What qualifies as "specialized"? That term is very vague, and discredits the "estimate".

    However, back to the special ed kids. Parochial schools have programs, too, and Catholic school sin particular of tackled that issue in the last few years. But I'll ignore that. Anyway, if we count the special ed kids, (who make up about 12% of students in public schools, and I'll even allow the dubious "learning disabilities", which is overused and over diagnosed now to sell drugs to kids), that's still not nearly enough to almost double the teacher ratio. The numbers would have to be much, much higher, like 40%. I mean, if you have 1000 kids in your school, and 120 of them are special needs, you're not going to have 100 teachers teaching them, you're going to have maybe 15-20. In a school that size with a 15/1 ratio, you'd be looking at about 67 teachers. Now, the fact is, the average is still going to be 15/1 because it's and average, and the average won't change. But let's extrapolate out.

    If we remove (the high side...let's go all the way up and call it 20 teachers for the 120 kids, a 6-1 sped/teacher ratio, which is surely too high), and run the numbers again, we'll have 47 teachers teaching 880 kids. Is that 25/1? Nope...not even close. You're up to 18-1, but that's not even close to 25/1, and even farther from 35-40/1.

    Teachers whine about class size. There's a reason for this. In any patronage system, you need more and more and more members for it to work. The teachers unions need members to stay strong, raise campaign funds for Democrats, which in turn are fed back in the form of favors for teachers. that's how patronage works. As budgets tighten, and this gets harder, studies must be conducted, "estimates' must be made up, justifications fabricated, and so on and so forth.

    Now, let's fact check. Actually, there are only about 10% of kids in the US in public schools with disabilities. About 5,000,000. The REAL ratio of teachers-to-special-needs-students is actually 10-1. So the numbers creep back down even when you separate the special needs kids out. And, again, an average is always an average. So the ratio of teachers to students, regardless of actual class sizes, is still 15/1.

    Bottom line? This is still a hijack of my thread. Religion should really have it's own forum. So I could never look at it or post in it.
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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    My little girl goes to a private school her class has 13 kids...............


    Suit your first post in this was dead on to the point........................humans do not do these types of things period

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)




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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Strange days are these.

    CLINTON threw herself on the hand grenade for Hopey, saying she was basically responsible for what happened in Libya. No, the LIBYANS are responsible for what happened in Libya. It's their job to guard our consulate and embassy, just as it's our job to guard theirs here.

    Anyway, now that we have a name of the guy who made this crappy little film, why are they still after us? They didn't attack the UK or India for Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Versus", they issued a Fatwa on Rushdie. Why not go after this Nakoula Basseley Nakoula guy?
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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    Strange days are these.

    CLINTON threw herself on the hand grenade for Hopey, saying she was basically responsible for what happened in Libya. No, the LIBYANS are responsible for what happened in Libya. It's their job to guard our consulate and embassy, just as it's our job to guard theirs here.

    Anyway, now that we have a name of the guy who made this crappy little film, why are they still after us? They didn't attack the UK or India for Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Versus", they issued a Fatwa on Rushdie. Why not go after this Nakoula Basseley Nakoula guy?
    I drove to Erie and back yesterday and again two days before that, so I'm a little out of the loop on this subject matter. But when I came in at 1.30 A.M. last night I turned on the television and saw Hillary condemning ...... the movie! What the fuck? The government didn't produce the movie, it has nothing to do with this country, so why the need to apologize for it and condemn it? Are we going to apologize for Monty's Python's The Life of Brian next?


    Apologizing just feeds the lunatics further. If these pre Flintstone savage countries can't control their populace get the fuck out of them, close the embassy and cut of their aid completely until they can! Use the billions were pumping into those scumbag countries at home. As if that money buys us any goodwill with their illiterate dirtbag, rage filled, stone age moronic populace anyhow.

    They attack us for no legitimate reason whatsoever and we apologize for a crappy movie we had nothing to do with, whose message we don't support? What the fuck's wrong with this picture?!

    Sorry if I'm being redundant, but this is just beyond retarded.
    "A man's got to know his limitations."

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)


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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/...lim-filmmaker/

    So is the new plan to prosecute free speech if it enrages Muslims?

    God this Administration is a joke! But not a funny one.
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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    I would like to add some credibility to Romney's assertions that Obama was apologizing. The left is flat-out lying about this. We DID apologize first...then there was a lot of pivoting and backpeddling.

    Look what was posted on our own State Department's website within a couple hours of the attack on our Embassy in Egypt.

    “The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims — as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions … respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others.”

    Not a single mention of the actual actions of the people who attacked the embassy. It almost sounds like the US was saying.............................it's okay to resort to violence if your religious sensibilities are violated?
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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    Look what was posted on our own State Department's website within a couple hours of the attack on our Embassy in Egypt.

    “The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims — as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions … respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others.”
    And that quote in itself is LAUGHABLE. I'm not a religious person myself, so I have no skin in the game and truly don't care either way, but even I can see that the Left in this country has been shitting on the religious beliefs of Christians for DECADES now.

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    I would like to add some credibility to Romney's assertions that Obama was apologizing. The left is flat-out lying about this. We DID apologize first...then there was a lot of pivoting and backpeddling.

    Look what was posted on our own State Department's website within a couple hours of the attack on our Embassy in Egypt.

    “The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims — as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions … respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others.”

    Not a single mention of the actual actions of the people who attacked the embassy. It almost sounds like the US was saying.............................it's okay to resort to violence if your religious sensibilities are violated?
    I dont like that statement at all, I got the same message you did out of it. I didnt really see it as an apology it seems what they were trying to do is diffuse the situation because of the large protest crowds. This is a terrible situation and who knows what the right answer is, what i do know is we will always be at war because of the plague that is religion.

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
    And that quote in itself is LAUGHABLE. I'm not a religious person myself, so I have no skin in the game and truly don't care either way, but even I can see that the Left in this country has been shitting on the religious beliefs of Christians for DECADES now.
    How so?

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    How so?
    You really have to look no further than the mocking Christians have gotten right here on this very board for their beliefs.

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
    You really have to look no further than the mocking Christians have gotten right here on this very board for their beliefs.
    Like what?

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    Like what?
    Please. You have two eyes. Read the board.

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
    Please. You have two eyes. Read the board.
    I dont see anyone mocking christians

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    I dont see anyone mocking christians
    Like I said, I don't really care either way, but I have noted the double standard in how much "respect" that practitioners of the Christian faith generally get in this country as opposed to practitioners of the "religion of peace."

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    I dont like that statement at all, I got the same message you did out of it. I didnt really see it as an apology it seems what they were trying to do is diffuse the situation because of the large protest crowds. This is a terrible situation and who knows what the right answer is, what i do know is we will always be at war because of the plague that is religion.
    See, I used to think that, but over the years I've come to realize that religion in and of itself is not the problem. People who are intolerant of other religions or try to force their religion on other people who may not want it is the problem. And BTW, atheists aren't any different when it comes to that - there are quite a few who would like to ban all religion, and thus forcing their beliefs on others. I happen to be a believer in God, but I am not a church-goer, not a "fundie" and certainly have no interest in forcing my beliefs on anyone else. My relationship with God is between me and Him, which is IMO the way it should be. There would be a hell of a lot less death and destruction, that's for sure.








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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by fansince'76 View Post
    Like I said, I don't really care either way, but I have noted the double standard in how much "respect" that practitioners of the Christian faith generally get in this country as opposed to practitioners of the "religion of peace."
    This is not true but im not going to derail suits thread again

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by steeldawg View Post
    This is not true but im not going to derail suits thread again
    Well, I see it differently, but I agree that this topic is for a different thread. And like I said before, I don't care that much about it anyway.

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by X-Terminator View Post
    See, I used to think that, but over the years I've come to realize that religion in and of itself is not the problem. People who try to force their religion on other people who may not want it is the problem. And BTW, atheists aren't any different when it comes to that - there are quite a few who would like to ban all religion, and thus forcing their beliefs on others. I happen to be a believer in God, but I am not a church-goer, not a "fundie" and certainly have no interest in forcing my beliefs on anyone else. My relationship with God is between me and Him, which is IMO the way it should be. There would be a hell of a lot less death and destruction, that's for sure.
    Atheism is simply a non beleif in dieties and they make up like 4% of the country what exactly are they forcing on people. The problem is with religion part of the religion is spreading the word.

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    Re: Attack in Libya (Warning, un-PC like brutal honesty in this thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    Let's be honest here. Religion is AN EXCUSE in this case.
    Absolutely. Looks like the "protests" have spread to the German embassy in Sudan, and a KFC and Arby's in Tripoli:

    Protests against film spread in Mideast; 1 killed

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