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Thread: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

  1. #31
    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    That is a "False Dillema" fallacy.... by creating an "either/or" scenerio as being the only possible option, when in reality there are more. Those who start businesses assume a certain amount of risk that you seem to either not be aware of or choose to ignore in the equation of failure/success.

    That being said...and risk assessment aside....If a business fails...yes, it is predominately the fault of the business owner. (Even if they want to use the excuse that they were overregulated.)
    If they didnt set up a three year nest egg to get them by until they are self sustaining through their own profit...If they did not do their homework, and calculate all liabilities, assets, and a profit potential based on regional socio-economic cash flow, business traffic/location, and competition...and YES....taking into consideration the UNGODLY corporate taxes this administration has laid upon businesses...then fault falls on the owner.

    HOWEVER....your fallacy falls apart when taking into consideration a certain amount of risk assessment. MR and MRS "X" start a successful small business through hardwork and deligent planning...6 years later a Super-Mega discount store is built next door and they obviously cant compete. They intitially succeeded because THEY did all the right things....and the business eventually failed without the owners being dumb or lazy.

    Your argument is flawed.
    My argument isn't flawed because that's not my argument. I asked that question based on what you said in your previous post:

    "What is the difference between those businesses that fail and those that succeed"? ...
    The difference is EXACTLY the very thing that Obama is downplaying....the inspiration and hard work of those who persevere until they succeed.


    You said that the difference between a business that fails and a business that succeeds is inspiration and hard work. So I asked a simple question ... if a business fails, can we then conclude that the owner was either not intelligent or not a hard worker? That's not what I believe and that's not my argument. My question was based only on what you said separated a failed business from a successful business.

    My argument is simple ... I agree with Obama AND Romney. Successful business owners don't do it all on their own. They get help along the way. The kind of help they get varies, but usually it's financial help such as loans.

    I think people's hatred for Obama has turned this into something it's really not.

  2. #32

    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    My argument isn't flawed because that's not my argument. I asked that question based on what you said in your previous post:

    "What is the difference between those businesses that fail and those that succeed"? ...
    The difference is EXACTLY the very thing that Obama is downplaying....the inspiration and hard work of those who persevere until they succeed.


    You said that the difference between a business that fails and a business that succeeds is inspiration and hard work. So I asked a simple question ... if a business fails, can we then conclude that the owner was either not intelligent or not a hard worker? That's not what I believe and that's not my argument. My question was based only on what you said separated a failed business from a successful business.

    My argument is simple ... I agree with Obama AND Romney. Successful business owners don't do it all on their own. They get help along the way. The kind of help they get varies, but usually it's financial help such as loans.

    I think people's hatred for Obama has turned this into something it's really not.
    No...your argument is incredibly flawed....you took the truth out of my statement and tried to make it false by applying an absolute to it. Its not an either/or argument.

    Any way you wish to sugar coat it....Obama played UP the role of the government ...while mocking and DOWNPLAYING the role of inspiration and perspiration. The truth is STILL that the predominant factor between success and failure is NEVER the government.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Let's remember who we're talking about here:

    http://www.barackobama.com/life-of-julia/
    Fire Goodell

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    The voice of reason Array title="GoSlash27 has a reputation beyond repute"> GoSlash27's Avatar

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    My argument is simple ... I agree with Obama AND Romney. Successful business owners don't do it all on their own. They get help along the way. The kind of help they get varies, but usually it's financial help such as loans.

    I think people's hatred for Obama has turned this into something it's really not.
    I don't. Your argument is so sound and self-evident that nobody would argue otherwise... but your argument is not Obama's argument.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    No...your argument is incredibly flawed....you took the truth out of my statement and tried to make it false by applying an absolute to it. Its not an either/or argument.
    Again, all I did was ask a question based on your comments. You said the difference between a business that fails and a business that succeeds is inspiration and hard work. It was you who made it an either/or argument. I didn't even present an argument ... all I did was ask a question.

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    Any way you wish to sugar coat it....Obama played UP the role of the government ...while mocking and DOWNPLAYING the role of inspiration and perspiration. The truth is STILL that the predominant factor between success and failure is NEVER the government.
    What am I sugar coating? Go back and watch that video I posted. Romney agrees with EVERYTHING Obama said except for one statement:

    "If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen."


    And that statement has been taken out of context. When Obama said "you didn't build that ... somebody else made that happen," he wasn't referring to people's businesses. He was referring to the stuff he said in the previous sentence. It was a poorly worded comment, but the meaning is clear to anyone who looks at it objectively. Only people who hate Obama think he was saying that owners don't deserve credit for building their own businesses.

    I haven't been talking about the role of government. My point has been that the statement that has gotten all the attention and scorn was taken out of context. But as for what Obama said about the role of government, Romney agreed with everything he said.

    I disagree that Obama was mocking the role of "inspiration and perspiration." His whole point was that people don't succeed on their own. More or less, it's a team effort. Here is what he said:

    "The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

    I agree that Obama played up the role of government (and don't forget that Romney agreed with everything he said), but in no way did he mock business owners or the role of "inspiration and perspiration."


    And I can't believe I'm defending Obama. Someone just please agree with me so I can stop.

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    Again, all I did was ask a question based on your comments. You said the difference between a business that fails and a business that succeeds is inspiration and hard work. It was you who made it an either/or argument. I didn't even present an argument ... all I did was ask a question.


    What am I sugar coating? Go back and watch that video I posted. Romney agrees with EVERYTHING Obama said except for one statement:

    "If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen."


    And that statement has been taken out of context. When Obama said "you didn't build that ... somebody else made that happen," he wasn't referring to people's businesses. He was referring to the stuff he said in the previous sentence. It was a poorly worded comment, but the meaning is clear to anyone who looks at it objectively. Only people who hate Obama think he was saying that owners don't deserve credit for building their own businesses.

    I haven't been talking about the role of government. My point has been that the statement that has gotten all the attention and scorn was taken out of context. But as for what Obama said about the role of government, Romney agreed with everything he said.

    I disagree that Obama was mocking the role of "inspiration and perspiration." His whole point was that people don't succeed on their own. More or less, it's a team effort. Here is what he said:

    "The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together."

    I agree that Obama played up the role of government (and don't forget that Romney agreed with everything he said), but in no way did he mock business owners or the role of "inspiration and perspiration."


    And I can't believe I'm defending Obama. Someone just please agree with me so I can stop.

    How about if we plug Obama's comment, IN CONTEXT with the rest of his speech, in even larger context with his Presidency and his belief in the role that government should play in people's lives? Because if we're not careful, this plays back into the Romney haters hands who insist (foolishly) that Obama and Romney are one and the same.

    Actually, what Romney did was smart. He BROKE OUT education, the role of teachers, mothers and fathers, our capitalist system, and the parts of government that ALLOW capitalism to work. If you examine it closely, line-by-line, it becomes very clear. Obama was talking about one thing, Romney another. And that should be pretty clear. In fact, if one examines all this through the lens of, say, Ayn Rand Objectivism, wouldn't Romney really be a producer, and Obama a moocher?
    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."



    Give a lib a fish--he eats for a day

    Teach a lib to fish--he is back the next day asking for more free fish.

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach1 View Post
    lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by 86WARD View Post
    Tomlin is that good.



    PATRIOTS**

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    Steelers - 18 Bengals - 16 #0in25 #anotherseasonBungled




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  11. #41

    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    How about if we plug Obama's comment, IN CONTEXT with the rest of his speech, in even larger context with his Presidency and his belief in the role that government should play in people's lives? Because if we're not careful, this plays back into the Romney haters hands who insist (foolishly) that Obama and Romney are one and the same.

    Actually, what Romney did was smart. He BROKE OUT education, the role of teachers, mothers and fathers, our capitalist system, and the parts of government that ALLOW capitalism to work. If you examine it closely, line-by-line, it becomes very clear. Obama was talking about one thing, Romney another. And that should be pretty clear. In fact, if one examines all this through the lens of, say, Ayn Rand Objectivism, wouldn't Romney really be a producer, and Obama a moocher?
    I've given up Suit....He knows.....he just wants to confuse the issue by turning the actual debate into trivial semantics and broad brush fallacies.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    I've given up Suit....He knows.....he just wants to confuse the issue by turning the actual debate into trivial semantics and broad brush fallacies.
    Nice deflection.

    I apologize for getting in the way of the circle jerk.

  13. #43

    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    Nice deflection.

    I apologize for getting in the way of the circle jerk.
    And we apologize for confusing you with facts. Not sure why Im surprised.

    Just more ideological excuse making.

    You try and convince everyone that ..."When Obama said 'You didnt build that'....he didnt mean that YOU didnt build that....thats just people taking his words out of context" .

    Your very argument being predicated on people NOT taking his words at face value but rather in the spirit in which it was implied. YET....you take everyone elses words and demand that they be read in the narrowest possible meaning.

    Please....if you want to argue...at least be intellectually honest and not use transparant circular logic.

    And when you are losing the arguement...dont tell everyone that they are part of a circle jerk. Its uncalled for.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    And when you are losing the arguement...dont tell everyone that they are part of a circle jerk. Its uncalled for.
    I took the time to respectfully reply to your posts. Rather than responding to my last post, you slammed me in a response to Suit's post. That, too, was uncalled for. If you have something to say about me, say it TO me ... not someone else. But I'd prefer to have a good discussion rather than exchange personal attacks.

  15. #45

    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    I took the time to respectfully reply to your posts. Rather than responding to my last post, you slammed me in a response to Suit's post. That, too, was uncalled for. If you have something to say about me, say it TO me ... not someone else. But I'd prefer to have a good discussion rather than exchange personal attacks.

    What I wrote was:


    I've given up Suit....He knows.....he just wants to confuse the issue by turning the actual debate into trivial semantics and broad brush fallacies.
    You are at least consistent in your desire to misdefine.

    Pointing out the lack of logic in your arguement is not a personal attack.

    Trying to convince others that Obama "meant" something other than what he said is not truthful.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    What I wrote was:




    You are at least consistent in your desire to misdefine.

    Pointing out the lack of logic in your arguement is not a personal attack.

    Trying to convince others that Obama "meant" something other than what he said is not truthful.
    You have Democrats saying Obama's comment was taken out of context. You have Republicans saying Obama's comment wasn't taken out of context. So who's right? This reminds me a lot of the Hines Ward argument ...

    Steelers fans always viewed Hines as a tough, physical player. But many non-Steelers fans viewed Hines as a dirty player. So, who was right? It depends on your perspective. Steelers fans and non-Steelers fans watched the same games and came away with completely different interpretations of what they saw from Hines. And the same concept applies to Obama's comment. How you interpreted it obviously depends on your perspective. I think it's worth discussing. In the end, you might be right. Or maybe I'm right. But you're not right just because you say you're right.

  17. #47

    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    You have Democrats saying Obama's comment was taken out of context. You have Republicans saying Obama's comment wasn't taken out of context. So who's right? This reminds me a lot of the Hines Ward argument ...

    Steelers fans always viewed Hines as a tough, physical player. But many non-Steelers fans viewed Hines as a dirty player. So, who was right? It depends on your perspective. Steelers fans and non-Steelers fans watched the same games and came away with completely different interpretations of what they saw from Hines. And the same concept applies to Obama's comment. How you interpreted it obviously depends on your perspective. I think it's worth discussing. In the end, you might be right. Or maybe I'm right. But you're not right just because you say you're right.
    I look at this debate more in the lines of when Al Gore stated that he had "created the internet". Did he help pass legislation that opened up avenues for the present day world wide web? Sure he did. but there is a huge leap between having the intellectual inspiration to create the internet, and being in a position to pass a bill that allows the actual inventors of the internet to succeed. These speeches are NOT spewed out off the cuff...they are well thought out. If Gore wanted to ...he could have avoided confusion by not grandstanding and simply taking credit for what he actually did

    Obama said "you didnt build that"....he NOW is quantifying his remark by asking everyone to use the "buffet" method in understanding what he meant. Take a little of the speech from here...a little form there....and then quantifying his innane comment in light of those things while ignoring the more volatile comments (of which there where several) Again...this speech was written before hand. He could have saved himself the embarressment of pissing off small business owners by not grandstanding to the crowd on hand.
    "I believe the game is designed to reward the ones who hit the hardest. If you can't take it, you shouldn't play"

    -- Jack Lambert --

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by LLT View Post
    I look at this debate more in the lines of when Al Gore stated that he had "created the internet". Did he help pass legislation that opened up avenues for the present day world wide web? Sure he did. but there is a huge leap between having the intellectual inspiration to create the internet, and being in a position to pass a bill that allows the actual inventors of the internet to succeed. These speeches are NOT spewed out off the cuff...they are well thought out. If Gore wanted to ...he could have avoided confusion by not grandstanding and simply taking credit for what he actually did

    Obama said "you didnt build that"....he NOW is quantifying his remark by asking everyone to use the "buffet" method in understanding what he meant. Take a little of the speech from here...a little form there....and then quantifying his innane comment in light of those things while ignoring the more volatile comments (of which there where several) Again...this speech was written before hand. He could have saved himself the embarressment of pissing off small business owners by not grandstanding to the crowd on hand.
    First of all, let me clarify a few things. I'm a conservative, and I agree with the majority opinion here when it comes to Obama and his views on the role of government. In fact, I probably believe in less government than most others here. But I honestly believe that his "you didn't build that" comment was referring to what he said in the previous sentence. It was a poorly worded comment, and if you listen to the audio, he kind of stumbles over it. I think it's possible that he didn't deliver it as it was written. As much as I dislike Obama and his policies and views on government, there's no way I believe that he doesn't think business owners deserve credit for building their businesses. I don't believe that he thinks that any more than I believe that he thinks there's 57 states (as he once said). I'm all for attacking Obama on his views. But I don't agree with attacking him on a gaffe. I don't agree with it when Democrats do it to Republicans, so I think Republicans should be held to the same standard.

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    A guy who ONLY reads prepared speeches off teleprompters doesn't really commit "gaffe's".

    He knew what he was saying.

    He was championing big government. Again.
    Fire Goodell

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    The voice of reason Array title="GoSlash27 has a reputation beyond repute"> GoSlash27's Avatar

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Suit,
    Point in fact he didn't read this one off a teleprompter. The gaffe wasn't that he said something other than what he meant, but that he said something he would rather have kept quiet.

    Wallace,
    You know me when it comes to Obama vs. Romney; I'm as objective in that particular battle as anyone can be. The truth isn't somewhere in the middle on this one. Taking his complete argument in context, I agree with the others about what he meant. The Democrats are just trying to cloud the issue.
    "You've heard people brag about 'being in the zone'. They don't know what the Hell being in the zone is about. I played in the NFL for 15 years and I was only in the zone that one time." - "Mean" Joe Greene on the 1974 playoff victory over Oakland

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by GoSlash27 View Post
    Wallace,
    You know me when it comes to Obama vs. Romney; I'm as objective in that particular battle as anyone can be. The truth isn't somewhere in the middle on this one. Taking his complete argument in context, I agree with the others about what he meant. The Democrats are just trying to cloud the issue.
    I've heard a lot of people say that even if you throw out that one sentence, everything else he said is just as bad, if not worse when it comes to his views on the role of government. If that's the case, then what do we do with the fact that Romney agreed with everything else he said? Let's look at the quotes again (this isn't just directed at you, Slash).

    Obama:
    "If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges."
    Romney:
    "I know that you recognize that a lot of people help you in a business. Perhaps the banks, the investors. There's no question your mom and dad. Your school teachers. The people that provide roads, the fire, and the police. A lot of people help."
    Romney
    "There are a lot of people in government who help us and allow us to have an economy that works and allow entrepreneurs and business leaders of various kinds to start businesses and create jobs. We all recognize that. That's an important thing."
    So Romney agrees with Obama that business owners don't create their businesses entirely on their own, that they get help. Even from the government. Romney said that it's an important thing for the government to help owners start their businesses. I just don't see how this is really any different than what Obama was saying. The only thing Romney disagreed with was the "you didn't build that" comment.

    The quote from Obama that I'm surprised isn't getting more play is this one:

    "You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there."
    On the surface, that seems much more offensive than the sentence that at least half of Americans believe was taken out of context. But I think I understand what he's saying here. It's kind of like with bands .... there are really talented, hard-working bands that never find success. Then there are those bands who really aren't all that talented but achieve tons of success. So how did they succeed when there are tons of talented, hard-working bands who don't? Because bands don't become successful on their own. It takes more than just talent and hard work. There are lots of factors that contribute to success, including a little luck. But the point is that there are a lot of talented, hard-working bands out there, and they're not all going to be successful. And the ones that do find success don't get there on their own. Likewise, there are tons of smart and hard-working people out there whose businesses fail, or who don't have and can't get the resources to even start their own business. And businesses that do succeed don't get there on their own. Yes, the owners are smart and work hard, but it takes more than that. It takes all the things that both Obama AND Romney agree with. And even Romney agrees that business owners don't get there on their own.

    Obama didn't downplay the importance of a business owner being smart and working hard. His point was that it takes more than that:

    The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.
    And if you look at the above quotes, Romney clearly agrees.

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    I want to pinpoint EXACTLY what Romney said about government:

    "There are a lot of people in government who help us and allow us to have an economy that works and allow entrepreneurs and business leaders of various kinds to start businesses and create jobs. We all recognize that. That's an important thing."

    He's clearly stating that these are PEOPLE and that these PEOPLE "allow us" to have an economy that works. He's talking about capitalists being capitalists. He's talking about people in government either being facilitators or getting out of the way. And he's MOSTLY talking about PEOPLE along the way who help other people, NOT government agencies "helping" through over-taxation and ridiculous regulation and thirty-seven layers of red tape or the agencies like the EPA which are literally destroying this economy. It is a vastly different message than Obama's. Surely you can see the obvious distinction?
    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    He's clearly stating that these are PEOPLE and that these PEOPLE "allow us" to have an economy that works. He's talking about capitalists being capitalists. He's talking about people in government either being facilitators or getting out of the way. And he's MOSTLY talking about PEOPLE along the way who help other people, NOT government agencies "helping" through over-taxation and ridiculous regulation and thirty-seven layers of red tape or the agencies like the EPA which are literally destroying this economy. It is a vastly different message than Obama's. Surely you can see the obvious distinction?
    This sounds similar to the argument liberals make when they say corporations shouldn't be able to donate to campaigns because corporations aren't people.

    Suit, I agree with everything you say against Obama. But I just don't see a distinction between what Obama said in that speech and what Romney said in response. Aside from the "you didn't build that" comment of course.

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    I give up.
    Fire Goodell

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    I give up.
    Cool. That means I win.


    The argument that Obama hates businesses and doesn't think that owners deserve credit for building their businesses is a bullshit argument. It's no different than when liberals say Republicans only care about the rich. Or Republicans are racists. Or any of the other countless bullshit things they say. There's no difference, Suit. NONE. It's all based on pure hatred for the other side.

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Wallace108 View Post
    Cool. That means I win.


    The argument that Obama hates businesses and doesn't think that owners deserve credit for building their businesses is a bullshit argument. It's no different than when liberals say Republicans only care about the rich. Or Republicans are racists. Or any of the other countless bullshit things they say. There's no difference, Suit. NONE. It's all based on pure hatred for the other side.

    Absofuckinglutely not. That is 100% wrong. There are actually business interests that track the voting records of politicians on how they vote on issues affecting small business, and business in general. In particular, NFIB tracks each Congress' voting records for and against small business. I was going CRAZY around these boards back in '08 SCREAMING for anyone that would listen that Obama had a TRACKED AND WELL RECORDED historical 98% voting record AGAINST SMALL BUSINESS.

    His record for voting for business interests in general is equally abysmal. Let's make this crystal clear. These are initiatives that business leaders and owners themselves have said are important to them, and Obama has consistently and constantly voted AGAINST THEM.

    How can that be anything other than being against business?
    Fire Goodell

  27. #57
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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    The inventions that have made our lives easier have been invented by innovative individuals, not the government

  28. #58
    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    Absofuckinglutely not. That is 100% wrong. There are actually business interests that track the voting records of politicians on how they vote on issues affecting small business, and business in general. In particular, NFIB tracks each Congress' voting records for and against small business. I was going CRAZY around these boards back in '08 SCREAMING for anyone that would listen that Obama had a TRACKED AND WELL RECORDED historical 98% voting record AGAINST SMALL BUSINESS.

    His record for voting for business interests in general is equally abysmal. Let's make this crystal clear. These are initiatives that business leaders and owners themselves have said are important to them, and Obama has consistently and constantly voted AGAINST THEM.

    How can that be anything other than being against business?
    I understand what you're saying, Suit. And I don't disagree with you. As I've said, I'm a conservative and I strongly disagree with the liberal view on the role of government. But I'm not sure you're understanding my point, and maybe that's my fault.

    What we're talking about is two different philosophies ... the liberal philosophy and the conservative philosophy. The philosophies couldn't be more different, but that doesn't mean one side cares and the other side doesn't. Let me try to clarify my point by giving you an example:

    Liberals strongly believe in things like welfare, food stamps, affirmative action, and other forms of assistance for blacks. Conservatives believe in individual responsibility and that those kind of programs do more to create dependence on government than actually help the people they're designed to help. So when conservatives oppose those programs, liberals fire back with, "Conservatives are racists. They hate black people." You and I both know that that charge is bullshit. Conservatives don't hate black people. We want the same things for them that liberals want. We just have a different belief in the best way to achieve it.

    Likewise, when it comes to the economy, liberals and conservatives want the same thing. We just have different philosophies on how to achieve it. Liberals believe in a strong role for the government. Conservatives believe that government should get out of the way. But just because liberals believe that government is the answer doesn't mean that they hate businesses. So I don't believe the narrative that Obama hates businesses anymore than I believe the narrative that conservatives hate black people.

    EDIT: I know what you're going to come back with. I see a hole in my argument. But I'll allow you to point it out, and then I'll respond to it.

  29. #59
    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Quote Originally Posted by st33lersguy View Post
    The inventions that have made our lives easier have been invented by innovative individuals, not the government
    Yes and no. You just made that comment on the Internet, which was created by the government. But while the government created the Internet, it was individual innovation that made it what it is today. I think it's that kind of cooperation Obama was talking about when he said:

    The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.

    I don't agree with Obama's philosophy on the role of government. But I do agree with him in that no one does it on their own.

  30. #60
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    Re: Obama: 'If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that."

    Here's why the difference matters. When Obama was an Illinois senator and US Senator (which is where all these voting records are drawn from), he was certainly made aware of the interests on both sides of issues he voted on. Your argument might hold some weight if he existed in a vacuum and had no idea what the wishes and interests of these business leaders actually were, but that is clearly not the case. In fact, in many cases, there is actual testimony given from these business leaders. I guess a case could be made that he made his decisions not because he doesn't favor the wishes of business leaders, rather he had some financial obligation form otherwise interested parties, but aren't the net results the same? Some of these votes were on really big issues, too, things that REALLY matter to business owners. Expensing equipment is a huge issue. The death tax is a big one, especially for farmers. He's voted against these things pretty regularly (which is why I chuckle when he acts like he's a big fan of these things now, since his entire political career has been pretty much the complete opposite).

    If he can't and won't vote with business when he is informed that they favor the issues, again, how can he be construed as anything but against business?

    It's a pretty common liberal tenet to be against business, ESPECIALLY corporate business, even though these are the same entities that give people jobs, and pay all the taxes. I see the dilemma, because it's so self-contradictory, but....well, there it is....
    Fire Goodell

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