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Thread: “This is what a dictator does”: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

  1. #121
    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: This is what a dictator does: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    Quote Originally Posted by X-Terminator View Post
    Personally, I wouldn't mind a "hands-off" foreign policy. I'm sick of the U.S. military being used as the world's police force and we are in way too many countries around the world. My foreign policy would simply be "we'll stay out of your business, we'll DO business, and everything will be fine...but if you poke us, we will stomp a mudhole in your ass and walk it dry."
    I agree with that, X-T. I used to be a hawk when it came to our military. My philosophy used to be "nuke 'em and ask questions later." But I've slowly come to realize that we stick our nose into too many places where it doesn't belong. Our military should be used to defend our country, not impose our will on other countries. Here's what our foreign policy has gotten us ... We've got the most dominant military the world has ever seen. We could wipe any country in the world off the map. Yet we have to pay countries billions of dollars every year to ensure our safety. Something is seriously wrong with that. We can't continue doing things the way we've been doing them. It's time for change.
    Last edited by Wallace108; 06-28-2012 at 12:22 AM.

  2. #122
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    Re: “This is what a dictator does”: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    Quote Originally Posted by X-Terminator View Post
    Personally, I wouldn't mind a "hands-off" foreign policy. I'm sick of the U.S. military being used as the world's police force and we are in way too many countries around the world. My foreign policy would simply be "we'll stay out of your business, we'll DO business, and everything will be fine...but if you poke us, we will stomp a mudhole in your ass and walk it dry."
    That is exactly what I want too.

    It's not like other countries don't know that we CAN kill them if provoked, or defend ourselves if need be. I'm pretty sure that point's been made lol.

  3. #123
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    Re: “This is what a dictator does”: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    I'll refute just one of your points...and utterly crush it. Will it matter?

    Free Trade has done nothing but GOOD for the US and it's workers.

    1) US is the largest manufacturing Country in the World, and that success is 100% dependent on exports. 2) US is #1 service exporter, and always has been, 3) 95% of the World's consumers live outside the US 4) Free trade partners purchased more then 40% of US goods in 2009 5) Since the WTO was created in 1994, US exports have DOUBLED 6) US exports to China have quadrupled in the last 15 years...we are now their 3rd largest importer 7) trade supports 38 MILLION jobs in the US...1 in 5 workers.

    http://thehill.com/opinion/op-ed/931...en-good-for-us
    (Show's that we have a trade SURPLUS) with FTA partners)

    For people who might think that NAFTA was what started the decline of manufacturing, it was technology...US manufacturing employment peaked in 1979, when there were 19.4 million jobs. That's 15 years before we joined the WTO, and 16 years before NAFTA, and 22 years before China joined the WTO. Also, the US's first trade imbalance year was 1980, 14 years before joining WTO. So any declines that supposedly resulted form NAFTA or the WTO existed far before we entered those agreements.

    Finally, dispels the myths of FTA...
    http://www.freeenterprise.com/2011/0...squs_widgets=1
    Fire Goodell

  4. #124
    Klaatu barada nikto Array title="suitanim has a brilliant future"> suitanim's Avatar

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    Re: “This is what a dictator does”: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    Ah, WTH:

    1. Being under the thumb of OPEC for our oil supply.
    (We should JOIN OPEC). We have more oil than Sadia Arabia. This is a particualarly ludicrous statement, because at the time the only alternative would have been to ATTACK the oil producing nations and take the oil. They created a cartel to protect their best interests. There was little we could do.
    2. Having NAFTA and other "free" trade deals that eroded our manufacturing base.
    (Toast)
    3. Being indebted to China to such an extent that it allows them to influence our decision making.
    (Balance the budget...and the way you do that is grow GDP and spend less......and how do you grow GDP? Get out of the way of business instead of regulating and taxing it to death)
    4. Giving billions every year to Pakistan to ensure their help in the war on terror, while they were harboring bin Laden and other terrorists.
    (That's a slippery slope...very complicated. I agree to an extent...far too complicated to get into here, probably requires it's on thread)
    5. Invading a sovereign nation on baseless grounds and killing countless numbers of women and children.
    (We should have finished off Iraq back under Bush Sr. The rest of this is hyperbolic...makes us sound like blood lusting war mongering monsters...again, probably a whole thread could be had on the overwhelming BENIGN and PEACE CREATING NOT war creating mission that underlies the US military and our projection of hard power around the world)

    There are also virtually NO libertarian tenets being applied in the US (nor anywhere else). Here's a small list of places that have applied some aspects...

    -Hong Kong is a free trade zone
    -Scottish banks in the 1800s had free banking which protected its depositors while neighboring English banks went under.
    -Switzerland has a part-time national government and few, if any, entangling alliances. Their currency is still backed by gold, so their inflation rate is low.
    -New Zealand has undergone extensive deregulation in the past decade, turning its economy completely around.

    Of course the US has dabbled in free trade...but you (Wallace) contradicted yourself once on that when you said free trade disabled our manufacturing base...

    I could keep going if you like...I could really start pulling sources and refuting stuff. The point is, fairy tale political ideologies like communism and libertarianism are for children. They have no place in real World, adult discussions...things are WAY too complicated...and simply being outraged and demanding change without actually having any kind of plan in place to set it in motion isn't really much better.
    Fire Goodell

  5. #125
    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: This is what a dictator does: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    Of course the US has dabbled in free trade...but you (Wallace) contradicted yourself once on that when you said free trade disabled our manufacturing base...
    How did I contradict myself?

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    2. Having NAFTA and other "free" trade deals that eroded our manufacturing base.
    (Toast)
    I see you once again declared victory, even before I had a chance to make a counter argument.
    Since you don't have a sig pic, feel free to use this one:



    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    I'll refute just one of your points...and utterly crush it. Will it matter?
    Dude, just out of curiosity ... how many minutes everyday do you spend flexing in the mirror?

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    Free Trade has done nothing but GOOD for the US and it's workers.

    1) US is the largest manufacturing Country in the World, and that success is 100% dependent on exports. 2) US is #1 service exporter, and always has been, 3) 95% of the World's consumers live outside the US 4) Free trade partners purchased more then 40% of US goods in 2009 5) Since the WTO was created in 1994, US exports have DOUBLED 6) US exports to China have quadrupled in the last 15 years...we are now their 3rd largest importer 7) trade supports 38 MILLION jobs in the US...1 in 5 workers.

    http://thehill.com/opinion/op-ed/931...en-good-for-us
    (Show's that we have a trade SURPLUS) with FTA partners)

    For people who might think that NAFTA was what started the decline of manufacturing, it was technology...US manufacturing employment peaked in 1979, when there were 19.4 million jobs. That's 15 years before we joined the WTO, and 16 years before NAFTA, and 22 years before China joined the WTO. Also, the US's first trade imbalance year was 1980, 14 years before joining WTO. So any declines that supposedly resulted form NAFTA or the WTO existed far before we entered those agreements.

    Finally, dispels the myths of FTA...
    http://www.freeenterprise.com/2011/0...squs_widgets=1
    I don't disagree with the argument that technology has had a major impact on U.S. jobs. You don't have to look any further than the post office and record stores to see that. I'm a journalist, and I've seen first-hand the impact technology has had on the newspaper industry. And there's no question that technology has had an impact on manufacturing jobs. But it's absurd to attribute most of the job loss to technology and ignore the impact of millions of manufacturing jobs leaving the country.

    The Internet is a big place with articles on just about everything. It's rather easy to find articles that support your argument, regardless of what your argument is. But it's absurd to post an opinion piece and try to present it as fact. Suit, I know you're smart enough to know that statistics can be used to prove whatever you want to prove. New jobs numbers will come out, and both Republicans and Democrats will use the same numbers to try to prove two very different points. Here's a silly yet easy to understand example. Let's say tomorrow we export 50 $30,000 cars to China. The next day, we don't export any cars, but we export 100 Slinkies. You know as well as I do that some "expert" trying to defend Day 2 would argue that we doubled our exports from the previous day.

    Allow me to use the car and Slinky example again to show how easy it is to manipulate statistics. Let's say there's 1,000 people working at the car plant making $20 per hour. And there's 100 people working at the Slinky plant making $15 per hour. Both set of workers are making decent money, and life is good. Let's say on a given day, the Slinky company exports 100 Slinkies to China at a cost of $2 apiece. The car company didn't export any cars. Our exports that day totaled $200. The next day, the Slinky company shut down and moved to China, laying off its 100 workers. On the same day, the car company exported 50 cars to China at $30,000 apiece. On that day, our exports totaled $1.5 million. If we just looked at the statistics, we'd assume that life was WAY better on Day 2 (our exports totaled $1.5 million compared with just $200 the day before). But we're totally ignoring the 100 workers at the former Slinky plant who are now without a job. And when those workers finally do find jobs, they're now making only $9 per hour because other low-skill, good-paying jobs also left, and they can't afford to buy any of those $30,000 cars themselves. But people in China are buying them, and our export numbers are up, so everything must be swell. Or is it? Even though we exported 50 cars to China, it's not enough to make up for the 100 Slinky workers who now can't afford to buy those cars. So the car company sees a drop in sales and has to lay off some of its own workers. This creates a domino effect that begins rippling through the entire economy.

    If you think everything is hunky dory with the current trade situation, walk around your house and pick up items at random. How many of them say "Made in the U.S.A."? How many say "Made in China"? Spend a half hour or so in Walmart and see how many products you can find that say "Made in the U.S.A." If a person in China walked around his house and picked up items at random, how many do you think would say "Made in the U.S.A."?

    Statistics can be manipulated to prove whatever you want them to prove. I guarantee I can find articles and statistics that support the argument that Roger Goodell is a great commissioner. But that doesn't make it a fact.

    The fact is that millions of low-skill but good-paying jobs have left this country. And those workers have had to find jobs paying much less than what they previously made ... if they can find a job at all. I agree that technology also has had a large impact. But it's a lesser impact than the millions of jobs that left the country. The reality is that the combination of the two has been devastating.

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    I could keep going if you like...I could really start pulling sources and refuting stuff.
    So you've been taking it easy on me? That's good to know. I should probably run and hide now.

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    The point is, fairy tale political ideologies like communism and libertarianism are for children. They have no place in real World, adult discussions...things are WAY too complicated...and simply being outraged and demanding change without actually having any kind of plan in place to set it in motion isn't really much better.
    Without a doubt, you're the most arrogant and condescending poster I've ever met on any message board. I'm not sure whether to criticize you or give you props for that.
    Last edited by Wallace108; 06-29-2012 at 01:33 AM.

  6. #126
    Renegade. Array title="bayz101 has a reputation beyond repute"> bayz101's Avatar

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    Re: “This is what a dictator does”: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    You could really start trying? Pulling your sources? Come on dude...

  7. #127
    Klaatu barada nikto Array title="suitanim has a brilliant future"> suitanim's Avatar

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    Re: “This is what a dictator does”: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    Quote Originally Posted by bayz101 View Post
    You could really start trying? Pulling your sources? Come on dude...

    STFU. I'm tired of you editorializing by saying nothing. You posted before that I was a "post-whore", thereby inferring that because I post a lot, the quality must naturally be somehow diminished, while also not-so-subtly inferring that because you post so little, the quality of YOUR posts must therefore be really great. I've read your posts... let me assure you, sir, that that is very much NOT the case.

    And, Wallace, your WHOLE post basically came down to saying "Nuh-uh".

    That's not a legitimate answer. What it says is "You're right...and the stats and facts and figures AND analysis backs it up, but I can't and won't admit I'm wrong so I'll play condescending word games and hem and haw and then say I'm right at the end".

    Tony Hipchest was a master at that. He'd make up a position, then scramble around on the internet to try and find some crap to back it up, then come back and say he was right all along. That's how he became known as "Bunker Map".

    The FACT is we run an overall TRADE SURPLUS (like 50 billion) with free trading partners, and a HUGE trade deficit (like 820 billion a year) with Countries that we don't have FTA's with. That's all. That's it. There are other factors. Savings rates play a part. Deficits and debts don't help. Creation of hemispheric tradings blocs. Technology, obviously is the biggest driver by far in the diminishment of manufacturing jobs (but not manufacturing might). The emergence of many smaller strong economies figures in, etc, etc...But NAFTA and other FTA's HELP us, they don't hurt us. If you want to look at the giant mountain of overwhelming evidence that backs that up and still deny it just so you don't have to admit you're wrong, that's fine with me, because in the end FTA's are still a good thing for the US AND it's workers, and you're still wrong about it. You act like I've exhausted the interwebs because I posted 2-3 links. But over the years I've read dozens of scholarly articles on this. I didn't just enter this discussion not knowing what the fuck I was talking about and then google a few things to educated myself. I knew what to look for and posted a few examples NOT for my sake, for YOURS. I could probably find 100 legitimate papers written by experts, ranging from Adam Smith to Gary Locke, to cite here. But I doubt it would matter...you already know what they don't, so...

    But it does make the prospect of me continuing to debate with someone who is so obdurate as to be unbending in his opinion even when faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary a little dubious. What would be the point? If you believe the Earth is flat even after looking at it from space, that's your problem, not mine...and maybe YOU aren't any "better than that" (which is still the weakest, most arrogant and self-righteous crock of shit condescension someone who is wrong can level at someone who is right...that statement probably disgusts me more than any of the other tripe posted here).
    Fire Goodell

  8. #128
    Renegade. Array title="bayz101 has a reputation beyond repute"> bayz101's Avatar

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    Re: “This is what a dictator does”: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    Actually, I "+1'd" GoSlash's post because I agreed with it, and rather than quoting that post, you quoted mine. And when I said "Post-whore's will overly voice their opinions" I was talking in general, not about you. In fact, I honestly wasn't talking about you at all.

    I'm sorry if your not impressed with the quality of my posts. I attend many Steelers forums (and moderator/administrate) and work 10-12 hours a day regularly. Sometimes it's short and sweet (sometimes not so sweet).

    I'm not impressed with your posts a lot of the time, either. Your style of posting makes you come across as a big-headed prick on occasion. That's all i'm going to say about it. Off to work.

    Take care.

  9. #129
    Renegade. Array title="bayz101 has a reputation beyond repute"> bayz101's Avatar

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    Re: This is what a dictator does: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    Also. Real mature of you to talk shit about Hipchest when his back is turned. Come on dude.

  10. #130
    Geek God Array title="X-Terminator has a reputation beyond repute"> X-Terminator's Avatar

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    Re: This is what a dictator does: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    OK, I've stayed out of this long enough. Settle the fuck down, or this thread gets locked. As I've said before, I WILL NOT allow this board to be dragged down into the gutter because people can't control themselves in political debates. Everything was fine until recently, so cut the shit already.








  11. #131
    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: This is what a dictator does: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    Quote Originally Posted by X-Terminator View Post
    OK, I've stayed out of this long enough. Settle the fuck down, or this thread gets locked. As I've said before, I WILL NOT allow this board to be dragged down into the gutter because people can't control themselves in political debates. Everything was fine until recently, so cut the shit already.


    I try to debate with respect and class. Heck, zu even said as much just a few pages ago. But it's difficult when someone insists on constantly making condescending comments about me. Attacking my views is OK. Attacking me personally is not. But I apologize for my last post. A few of the comments were below the belt.

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    That's not a legitimate answer. What it says is "You're right...and the stats and facts and figures AND analysis backs it up, but I can't and won't admit I'm wrong so I'll play condescending word games and hem and haw and then say I'm right at the end".

    Tony Hipchest was a master at that. He'd make up a position, then scramble around on the internet to try and find some crap to back it up, then come back and say he was right all along. That's how he became known as "Bunker Map".
    Throughout this thread, I've argued with logic and common sense and have done my best to back up my views with sound reasoning. My arguments aren't any less valid because I don't feel the need to scour the Internet for articles to back up my views. As I said in my previous post, you can find tons of articles that "prove" both sides of any issue. But you can't just post articles from one side of the debate and say, "There ... that's proves that I'm right!! Now accept it!" I explained, with a crude example, how the numbers in those articles can easily be manipulated to prove whatever you want to prove.

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    But it does make the prospect of me continuing to debate with someone who is so obdurate as to be unbending in his opinion even when faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary a little dubious. What would be the point?
    There are people here who can confirm that I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. And even when I think I'm right, I don't have a problem admitting when someone else makes valid points, even if I don't agree with them. Hell, in my last post I acknowledged your point about technology. So please don't accuse me of being unbending in my opinions when I can easily turn that around on you.

    You might think that you presented "overwhelming evidence" that proved your point, but I disagree. And I explained why I disagree. If you disagree with anything I said in my counter argument, as you obviously do, please explain to me why you disagree. You have to prove me wrong. You can't just post a couple articles and say, "See! I'm right," and expect me to accept the argument as fact. I can find just as many articles that "prove" my side of the argument. So what's the point in that?

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    If you believe the Earth is flat even after looking at it from space, that's your problem, not mine...and maybe YOU aren't any "better than that" (which is still the weakest, most arrogant and self-righteous crock of shit condescension someone who is wrong can level at someone who is right...that statement probably disgusts me more than any of the other tripe posted here).
    But I'm not wrong.

  12. #132
    Klaatu barada nikto Array title="suitanim has a brilliant future"> suitanim's Avatar

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    Re: “This is what a dictator does”: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    Here's the problem with arguing on the internet. I KNOW what I'm talking about. I don't need to scramble around and do Google searches and try to figure out how I can back-up some bullshit I just made up. I do searches and cite sources for one reason and one reason only: So people can't just say "That's just your opinion". I tried it that way. It's the same way you've just posted, Wallace. You try to knock down cited facts, cited websites loaded with stats and facts and figures AND analysis, which I use to back up my OWN analysis to present a well-rounded, well thought-out argument with few or no holes.

    You counter with JUST an opinion, and not a particularly well-formed or informed one at that. I don't see much or anything cited from others. EVEN another opinion would help. And I also don't understand this fascination with PRETENDING to be some kind of "high-road" poster while actually engaging in the same tactics I do but just being a little subtler about it. Like that "you're better than that" shit. What that REALLY says is "I'm better than you, so I'm going to be dismissive and pedantic and act like I'm in a position to condescendingly lecture you". Bullshit. I don't have to be nice (although I'll get banned for it), and people who are full of shit but cannot admit that there is even another position, let alone that they may be wrong sicken and ANGER me. The internet is so full of idiots who, for some reason (maybe because they were raised to be "special" or something) all think that their opinion is just as valuable as everyone else's, even if it's completely retarded. I'm not necessarily stating that yours was RETARDED, rather it's simply an opinion, and it really in no way shape or form refutes the mountain of facts and stats and opinions and analysis and charts and graphs and actual real World numbers that supports MY opinion. All opinions are not created equal, and when holds onto an untenable, indefensible position either because they refuse to acknowledge that they might be wrong, or, even worse, because they disagree or dislike the opposition, that's beyond ridiculous.

    Bayz, you're on ignore. I've never seen anything worth a shit posted form you before, so, why bother reading it? That one is easy...
    Fire Goodell

  13. #133
    Conservatarian Array title="Wallace108 is a splendid one to behold"> Wallace108's Avatar

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    Re: This is what a dictator does: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    Quote Originally Posted by suitanim View Post
    And I also don't understand this fascination with PRETENDING to be some kind of "high-road" poster while actually engaging in the same tactics I do but just being a little subtler about it. Like that "you're better than that" shit. What that REALLY says is "I'm better than you, so I'm going to be dismissive and pedantic and act like I'm in a position to condescendingly lecture you". Bullshit
    I most certainly DO debate with respect and class. That's why I'm able to get along just fine with people like hipchest, ricardisimo, and SteelCityMom even though we rarely agree on anything. I get disrespectful only when someone pokes me. And you've poked me quite a few times in this thread. I'm not just going to sit back and allow you to make condescending comment after condescending comment and not fire back eventually. And I'm going to display that respect by not firing back at the personal attacks you made once again in the rest of your post.

  14. #134
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    Re: “This is what a dictator does”: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    I'm out. Personal attacks are all i'm getting out of this, and I can be doing better with my time.

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    Re: “This is what a dictator does”: Obama enacts DREAM Act without vote or exec order

    That's enough. This thread is closed.

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